Dragon Ball Cosmology Revision

[Aachintya31]

Introduction
This is the continuation of these two threads regarding cosmology of Dragon ball as a whole.

Timeline in Dragon ball is currently rated as 2-C for having 12 universes considered to be separate space-time.

However, the problem comes that causing a temporal-divergence/paradox in one universe causes branching of entire timeline implying it to be a quilted multiverse where every universe share a common space-time and hence physically connected.
Until Now ,to counter this we had this note :

Spoiler: Cosmology Note

Note: We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate time-spaces relative to each other, hence why Zen'ō is rated as 2-C, despite the events in the Goku Black Saga showing parallel timelines encompassing the whole of the multiverse.

The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.

Arguments
1.The Problem is that Room of Spirit and Time a.k.a ROSAT was only assumed to be a part of the Universe 7 Macrocosm because multiverse wasn't established at that point in the series.
However ,in the recent Dragon Ball Super Manga Chapter 87 ,we have this dialogue from Frieza which implies other dimensions like ROSAT are outside the universe, and it was later confirmed that the statement covers entirety of the Universe 7 Macrocosm supported by Dragon ball media. So ,its not just the Living universe but the entire Macrocosm as a whole.
2.Daizenshuu 4 states

The temple's lower portion is filled with complicated, maze-like passageways, and the entrance to the Room of Spirit and Time is at the deepest part of the temple. The room here exists in a separate dimension

3. Zeno Guards and Angels can travel physically between universes as shown here and stated here. Our current standard has one condition that physical travel should be impossible for them to be considered separate space-time
EDIT
4.The Super Dragon Balls gets distributed across Universe 7 and Universe 6 via physical 3-D movement which should be impossible if the universes are spatio-temporally separated.Even Hit who is a mortal ,after completing his task in Universe 7 flew away back to Universe 6.
7.Credits - @Nullflowerblush

Merus refers to the Room of Spirit and Time's progression of time alternative to the outside world's as the result of time dilation, which may imply that the Living Universe and the Room of Spirit and Time exist within the same space-time continuum, but experience the same time differently.

Counter-Arguments

1. When Buu Vice Shouted himself out of RoSaT, he landed in Kami's Lookout. When Vegeta smashed the RoSaT forcing the need to restore/rebuild it, Vegeta also landed on Kami's Lookout.

I guess it depends on how we treat visuals over statements for location of two space-time.

2.This is a manga statement. Just a downgrade for manga

Well Dragon ball follows a composite cosmology for a long time. The cosmology is considered same here by the staff Also the evidence of ROSAT for anime is weak in itself. This is used as a supplementary evidence for an information which is unclear and matters greatly.

Universes are default Low 2-C. So timeline qualifies 2-C automatically

This is true unless proven otherwise. DB has a lot of anti-feats added above.
Edit :
Whis and other angels have dimensional travel on his profile so the point regarding them flying to different universes is moot.

TL;DR
Location of RoSaT (a planet sized separate space-time) is what keeping the universes Low 2-C and timeline 2-C. Many characters like Whis ,Hit etc. can travel to different universes via physical 3-D movement which should be impossible if they spatio-temporally separate.Without it ,Universes will be downgraded to 3-A making the timeline Low 2-C.

Note:
1.Please be Civil and don't do unnecessary spam posts.
2. Don't bring up stuff like Afterlife Being a separate space-time or anything similar. This has been discussed before and a discussion rule exists for this reason. Every other realmn in Universe 7 shares the same space-time as the living universe.
3. Some standards which can affect this thread is being discussed in Tier 2 revisions
Current Vote Tally :
Agree - ,@Planck69 ,@Maverick_Zero_X, @Theglassman12, @LordGriffin1000 (Agrees with the premise)
Disagree - @DarkDragonMedeus, @Antvasima
Neutral - Possibly @Executor_N0 ( agrees the universes sharing the same temporal axis but still thinks they can be Low 2-C), @PrinceofPein (thinks universes are not spatio-temporally separate but is not knowledgeable to DB)

 

[LordGriffin1000]

We shouldn't even be using the same cosmology for the anime and manga when they have multiple differences that was warranted enough to give the characters different profiles, so why on earth are statements made in the manga use as justification to effect anime stuff is beyond me but whatever. Also, Frieza said "perhaps", meaning he isn't even sure if that's the exact reason but sure, I could see the reason for the downgrade but I still don't agree with the cosmology for the anime and manga being the same when they already have different events and statements happening in them so when a statement is made on the cosmology from one, it's basically ignorant to use it for the other when the wiki itself treats what's happening in both as noticeably different.

Regardless, I don't really much know enough about the manga to even way in but considering the decision was that they have the same cosmology was agreed upon, I guess the downgrade is justifiable. However, the angels and Zeno's guards "physically" traveling to other universes is something that's bothered be since they are clearly using a technique (that warp or whatever it's called) that doesn't look like their normal flight but I haven't the time nor effort to debate Dragon Ball stuff. I'm sick, busy with real life stuff, and revising other verses and despite this known fact, I'm still being called for major revisions... so I'm not replying after this.

I'll let other staff handle this.

 

[Executor_N0]

I thought that sharing a time axis was already accepted before as not really being a reason for not being separated space-times. It's one of the most direct ways of showing that they are different, but not something that must happen.

The necessity is for them to exist in parallel, they might share most of spatial and time axis, but not occupying the exact same points in space-time because they are separated by an even infinitesimal amount in another dimensional axis.

If there's enough reason for them to share the same overall space and therefore aren't parallel spaces (As in a quilted where there's only one region of space for everything and it just is very big to the point of repetitions to happen), then it wouldn't be an acceptable multiverse for our system.

Tl;dr Sharing the same temporal axis isn't a reason for that not being Tier 2, it just is one less reason for it to be. However, sharing the same spatial dimensions and baisc travel across space being enough to go mostly everywhere is a reason for just being Tier 3.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

If Dragonball has a composite cosmology does this extend to toei which is accepted as 2C

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

We shouldn’t cross-scale Toei anime-only stuff to canon.

 

[omegabronic]

so is it accepted that toei has the same cosmology?

toei is not accepted as having the same cosmology, also staff thread

 

[Reiner04]

If Dragonball has a composite cosmology does this extend to toei which is accepted as 2C

Only to their version of manga/anime, and it was already stated and agreed upon in the toei cosmological upgrade that it wouldn't affect super.

The chain is like:
Super manga information about cosmology is acceptable for anime super.

Z manga cosmology information is acceptable for anime Z.

Guide books statement are acceptable for all unless contradicted by any of the official media.

 

[The_Smashor]

TL;DR
Location of RoSaT (a planet sized separate space-time) is what keeping the universes Low 2-C. Without it ,Universes will be downgraded to 3-A making the timeline Low 2-C.

Wait, so if Universe 7 has two rooms of spirit and time, the one on Kami's Lookout and the one Frieza used, wouldn't that make destroying Universe 7 2-C in the Super Manga canon? (As well as the Super Anime since apparently Super Manga cosmology statements can apply to it)

Or am I missing something?

Even if it dosn't, wouldn't it get Dragon Ball to Low 2-C much sooner due to Vegeta destroying the one on Kami's Lookout?

 

[KLOL506]

Wait, so if Universe 7 has two rooms of spirit and time, the one on Kami's Lookout and the one Frieza used, wouldn't that make destroying Universe 7 2-C in the Super Manga canon? (As well as the Super Anime since apparently Super Manga cosmology statements can apply to it)

Or am I missing something?

Even if it dosn't, wouldn't it get Dragon Ball to Low 2-C much sooner due to Vegeta destroying the one on Kami's Lookout?

Normally speaking, it would, but due to space-time continuums requiring to be universe-sized (93 billion light years wide), VS wiki policies would ultimately make it "NOT A TIER 2 FEAT".

 

[The_Smashor]

...

Why on earth does 3D distance matter for 4D spacetime?

Also, since Infinite Zamasu was one with spacetime, and Low 2-C comes from Infinite Zamasu, dosn't this entire thing nerf Zeno, some Angels, and do literally nothing else of note since we removed the "Would eventually become 2-C" for Infinite Zamasu?

 

[KLOL506]

Why on earth does 3D distance matter for 4D spacetime?

IDK, it doesn't sit well with me either. I keep asking that question meself a lot these days.

 

[KLOL506]

I think I finally get it now.

Normally, even with a finite 3D space that is confirmed to have its own space and time, it'd still possess an uncountably infinite number of snapshots of said 3D space, which'd naturally outnumber that finite aspect automatically and would go above and beyond the universe-size requirement easily. But of course, we ain't ready for that discussion yet.

EDIT: DO NOT DISCUSS THIS AS IF THIS IS GOSPEL. THIS HAS NOT YET COME TO FRUITION. LEAVE IT FOR THE FUTURE DARK DAYS, WHENEVER IT COMES, A DECADE OR HALF A CENTURY LATER.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Normally speaking, it would, but due to space-time continuums requiring to be universe-sized (93 billion light years wide), VS wiki policies would ultimately make it "NOT A TIER 2 FEAT".

there is dimension of the lights, which is bigger than the universe.

 

[KLOL506]

there is dimension of the lights, which is bigger than the universe.

I REGRET OPENING MY ******* MOUTH.

 

[The_Smashor]

there is dimension of the lights, which is bigger than the universe.

i'm sorry this is what it's actually ******* called

But yeah, so far as I know this place is never elaborated on either way.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

i'm sorry this is what it's actually ******* called

But yeah, so far as I know this place is never elaborated on either way.

in fact it is elaborate, there is evidence about it on the official DB website, and also in the dragon ball super broly anime comics itself.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

This is a staff thread guys

 

[Firestorm808]

Can someone clarify the continuity that this thread is using?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Can someone clarify the continuity that this thread is using?

manga

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Also did someone delete my message?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Also did someone delete my message?

This is a staff thread guys

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I was one of the main people arguing against it in the previous thread but if you want me to I can stop chatting here

 

[omegabronic]

Can someone clarify the continuity that this thread is using?

manga and anime, since they share a cosmology, this is an accepted thing

 

[Tarang123]

I think this stuff has been accepted, but the whole point regarding the ROSAT being disconnected does feel a tad strange if we take into account that Vegeta, when destroying it, landed right back on Earth. If the ROSAT actually existed outside the entire timeline or macrocosm, you'd expect him to end up there, yet he didn't.

Then again, this could be more to do with the nature of the ROSAT, considering that it being on Earth wouldn't make any sense as it's as large as the planet itself.

Anyway, I'll remain neutral. Some good points, and some points that I'm doubtful of

 

[Aachintya31]

there is dimension of the lights, which is bigger than the universe.

Stop it Toby. This isn't productive.

Can someone clarify the continuity that this thread is using?

Dragon ball Super.
The cosmology for Super Manga and Anime are considered same until now.

Regarding Cross-Universal travel ,i would like to clarify, its normal physical flight. That wrap is just a animation effect to showcase space-travel. It's also not immeasurable/infinite speed since they travel across linear time (like 30 minutes to reach Earth From Beerus's planet or 2 days from Universe 7 to Grand Zeno's Palace).

 

[Reiner04]

However, sharing the same spatial dimensions and baisc travel across space being enough to go mostly everywhere is a reason for just being Tier 3.

Yeah, characters can travel from one universe to another universe via regular three dimensional flight/movement, Universe 7 to space between (neutral space) to another universe.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Not to make an actual argument as it’s a Staff Thread but in regards to the rules themselves… if the DB discussion rules are being acknowledged here to the point 2-C Afterlife is immediately told off, why is the “universes share the same space because Whis can travel between them with the Staff” specific point even being made or entertained? That argument also clearly equally falls under the Discussion Rule of not attempting to change the DB cosmology based off old, rejected Ad Nauseam arguments.

 

[omegabronic]

Not to make an actual argument as it’s a Staff Thread but in regards to the rules themselves… if the DB discussion rules are being acknowledged here to the point 2-C Afterlife is immediately told off, why is the “universes share the same space because Whis can travel between them with the Staff” specific point even being made or entertained? That argument also clearly equally falls under the Discussion Rule of not attempting to change the DB cosmology based off old, rejected Ad Nauseam arguments.

because the rule is being followed, new information of the ongoing manga is being used

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

because the rule is being followed, new information of the ongoing manga is being used

Then actually stick to just evaluating the new information. The point that specifically pertains to Whis’ staff travel ability is not anything founded on new information, and is among the long rejected arguments specifically further prohibited by the Discussion Rule about the DB cosmology.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

porque a regra está sendo seguida, novas informações do mangá em andamento estão sendo usadas

This is a staff thread guys

.

 

[Reiner04]

Then actually stick to just evaluating the new information. The point that specifically pertains to Whis’ staff travel ability is not anything founded on new information, and is among the long rejected arguments specifically further prohibited by the Discussion Rule about the DB cosmology.

Sorry, tiering system more importantly, FAQ, has been rerevised. So we are following new things and whis flying off from one universe to another is just an additional information.

 

[omegabronic]

.

to explain the points is allowed, but i will say no in this message more to keep it at a minimum

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

to explain the points is allowed, but i will say no in this message more to keep it at a minimum

then I will explain mine.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Stop it Toby. This isn't productive.

Dragon ball Super.
The cosmology for Super Manga and Anime are considered same until now.

Regarding Cross-Universal travel ,i would like to clarify, its normal physical flight. That wrap is just a animation effect to showcase space-travel. It's also not immeasurable/infinite speed since they travel across linear time (like 30 minutes to reach Earth From Beerus's planet or 2 days from Universe 7 to Grand Zeno's Palace).

It has already been refuted that angels don't travel physically by flying, this is so silly, it makes me nauseous. https://vsbattles.com/threads/drago...timeline-tiering-revision.148447/post-5434764


It has also been explained that there is a neutral place that separates the Universes



There is also a dimension that separates the two Universes, mentioned in the manga.





Physical travel is impossible, Travel is possible through a cube, said to go everywhere.





Here Champa mentions that it would be impossible to catch an assassin with his cube.





Zeno'oh lives outside the Multiverse, so much so that it is possible to look at the Universes from outside Zeno'oh's palace





https://youtu.be/2UkrZNqFGQs


0.49 seconds


As you can see, Zeno's palace is outside the multiverse, so much so that the Daishinkan is shown observing Merus through a Living Water


https://imgur.com/a/UcR8CpL


https://imgur.com/a/isYRTHk


https://imgur.com/a/YfpcgKO


Whis can travel to the future, why crossing through space-time would be difficult for him? We can assume that Whis can travel to different periods of time, through flying freely and crossing all space-time with the skill he has, so it is not a physical flight to other Universes, every time he is shown going to other Universes there are a distortion in space


https://imgur.com/a/SlQk9yi


as presented here


https://vsbattles.com/threads/drago...timeline-tiering-revision.148447/post-5434764


I want to apologize for commenting here, but I'm sad to see my verse being downgraded for futile reasons, thank you, this is my last post here.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Sorry, tiering system more importantly, FAQ, has been rerevised. So we are following new things and whis flying off from one universe to another is just an additional information.

It’s not about the tiering system or FAQ, the actual discussion rule like the OP mentions. That hasn’t been revised or changed.

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Just like 2-C Afterlife which OP was quick to point out is banned, points about things like Whis’ staff simply don’t follow any new information, and is an equally extensively rejected argument on this forum and is in the same boat.

 

[Reiner04]

It’s not about the tiering system or FAQ, the actual discussion rule like the OP mentions. That hasn’t been revised or changed.

Every verse will be affected if tiering system or FAQ will be changed. In future, if tier 2A becomes tier low 2C then there is "no" rule that stopping the verses which are being affected. The rules only applies to the things that aren't affected by the recent tier 2 revision.

 

[Excellence616]

I agree

 

[Greatsage13th]

I agree

 

[Nullflowerblush]

This is a Staff Discussion thread.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Every verse will be affected if tiering system or FAQ will be changed. In future, if tier 2A becomes tier low 2C then there is "no" rule that stopping the verses which are being affected. The rules only applies to the things that aren't affected by the recent tier 2 revision.

Sure, but that’s not the case here. This is about using an old, rejected argument, and notably with the same old, rejected evidence thus going against the DB discussion rules.
.