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I guessMan the rate with which tier 2 revision thread is progressing, it'll take it forever for this thread to conclude.
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I guessMan the rate with which tier 2 revision thread is progressing, it'll take it forever for this thread to conclude.
yes, so? i think that you are not understanding the point, the db toei continuity has no connection to the the z manga canon wise, both the super manga and the dbs manga are equally canon to z, so their changes retroactively aplies to the z manga, which since z is canon to both dbs anime and manga, aplies to both, plus we already consider the events of the manga as happened in the anime continuity anyway, just have a look at the timeline in the verse pageEven Toei has some consistent cosmology stuff similar to DBS and guidebooks have been consistent for both versions; only difference so far is Toei describes afterlife as having a different flow of time and/or separated by time and space.
so? the only times that anyone did that it was when they forced open a portal in the same place that that the door was before, and besides this doesn't prove much, it is just them forcing a portal to universe 7, how would this prove that it is inside universe 7?That still doesn't dismiss the fact that someone breaking or exiting the RoSaT takes them straight to the Look Out's locations;
even when directly stated and shown otherwise?making it connected to U7 is the most logical interpretation.
you say this based on what exactly?Plus, it still exists within side the Timeline.
no, he said that it isn't impossible for those things to happen, but you need a direct statement of them being space times for you to use that interpretation, otherwise we go with the less assumption and just consider them not to be space times since it is the more simple interpretation, extraordinary assumptions require extraordinary evidence, saying that the timeline of 12 universes is a specific type of timeline that allows time paradoxes in one universe affect all other even with them being all separated space times is an extraordinary assumption, no extraordinary evidence has been provided yetWell Executor already pointed out that the opposing interpretation is knit picking at best. And none of that is still anti-feats.
yes, but what does this have to do with anything? a new timeline is created yes, but if the 12 universes have their own space and time, then time paradoxes like that shouldn't affect the other 11 universes if they were space times, since they all would have their own "time" independent of each other, thus unaffectedI'm pretty sure you already heard of the grandfather paradox theory? About killing your grandfather effecting time and space to the point of you never being born? It wouldn't quite change history of the already existing timeline because when one travels back in time, they aren't going to a time period within your own timeline, but rather the time period of a new timeline and that timeline goes down a new path. Like when Trunks went back in time to warn Goku about the Androids, it didn't change history of his own world but rather formed a new timeline where Goku never died of a heart virus. Also, sometimes a simple action creates multiple timelines in a single move; Beerus created a timeline when he erased Zamasu in the main timeline. And Whis also mentioned an already existing timeline where his and Mai's loved ones are still alive where they are taken to by Whis after their old timeline was erased.
this link is of the broly movie, currently not considered canon to the toei continuity on this site, besides that, this doesn't show him physically traveling between dimensions, but him going from one dimension to the other, and then physically travelling, at max this is an anti feat for the 2-C cosmology of toei, and shows that in the continuity of that movie, they aren't separated space times
similar situation to the above, this is them teleporting to another dimension, and then physically travelling in another dimension
this is goku and cooler trading blows, what does this have to do with anything?
how does this prove that it includes time?Nah because In BOG the condensed energy ball was omnidirectional and was gonna destroy it basically instanteously so time is already in the equation unlike the manga
in the timelines mention of having totally different history, as well as different time flow, one timeline does not affect another and vice versa.
the reason for them to not be 2-C is the same for the argument of the universes not being low 2-C, physical travel is possible(as shown by whis) and they have no mention of being space times, toei here is irrelevant since it doesn't have any conection the the z manga as it is its own thing, besides it was said already in this and in the past threads, we don't consider toei cosmology as the same as the db main canon cosmology, toei is litterally irrelevant hereI mean, is there anything that stopping from single universe to be 2C? I don't think there is any. This is perfect time that things gets corrected. We have toei cosmology as a side stuff. We have @Executor_N0 points. Rules aren't something that cannot be wrong, Toei cosmology has been changed already.
let's calm down, have some tea to calm down, my friend, now there's nothing else to do, everything here has been refuted and applications are being awaited.yes, so? i think that you are not understanding the point, the db toei continuity has no connection to the the z manga canon wise, both the super manga and the dbs manga are equally canon to z, so their changes retroactively aplies to the z manga, which since z is canon to both dbs anime and manga, aplies to both, plus we already consider the events of the manga as happened in the anime continuity anyway, just have a look at the timeline in the verse page
so? the only times that anyone did that it was when they forced open a portal in the same place that that the door was before, and besides this doesn't prove much, it is just them forcing a portal to universe 7, how would this prove that it is inside universe 7?
even when directly stated and shown otherwise?
you say this based on what exactly?
no, he said that it isn't impossible for those things to happen, but you need a direct statement of them being space times for you to use that interpretation, otherwise we go with the less assumption and just consider them not to be space times since it is the more simple interpretation, extraordinary assumptions require extraordinary evidence, saying that the timeline of 12 universes is a specific type of timeline that allows time paradoxes in one universe affect all other even with them being all separated space times is an extraordinary assumption, no extraordinary evidence has been provided yet
yes, but what does this have to do with anything? a new timeline is created yes, but if the 12 universes have their own space and time, then time paradoxes like that shouldn't affect the other 11 universes if they were space times, since they all would have their own "time" independent of each other, thus unaffected
this link is of the broly movie, currently not considered canon to the toei continuity on this site, besides that, this doesn't show him physically traveling between dimensions, but him going from one dimension to the other, and then physically travelling, at max this is an anti feat for the 2-C cosmology of toei, and shows that in the continuity of that movie, they aren't separated space times
similar situation to the above, this is them teleporting to another dimension, and then physically travelling in another dimension
this is goku and cooler trading blows, what does this have to do with anything?
how does this prove that it includes time?
how does this proves anything related to the topic?
It is but if @Executor_N0 points are valid then we have same case for afterlife as for each universe.people can we not derail with "2-C macrocosm db universe" topic? it doesn't concern this thread and it is another topic altogether
It is but if @Executor_N0 points are valid then we have same case for afterlife as for each universe.
this is goku and cooler trading blows, what does this have to do with anything?
??this link is of the broly movie, currently not considered canon to the toei continuity on this site, besides that, this doesn't show him physically traveling between dimensions, but him going from one dimension to the other, and then physically travelling
Even if we go with your logic here, it leads to you conceding to the fact that the dimensions have completely different time streams since IT and Kai-Kai are instantaneous, while the dimensions they travel in take time due to the distance component.similar situation to the above, this is them teleporting to another dimension, and then physically travelling in another dimension
well, here is the thing, this is the topic of the thread, if anyone wants to make a thread about this after this one then that is okay, but we are talking about the universes now, the afterlife point is a whole other debate that would require yet another threadIt is but if @Executor_N0 points are valid then we have same case for afterlife as for each universe.
dude can you drop the attitude please?let's calm down, have some tea to calm down, my friend, now there's nothing else to do, everything here has been refuted and applications are being awaited.
not inside, it is them teleporting super fast, trading a blow, and then teleporting again, the thecnique is teleportation, you can't fight inside teleportation or else it isn't teleportation
What you're seeing is them fighting inside Instant Transmission. It happens many times in the movie, you can go watch it if you want
no, we see his teleporting from one dimension to the other and then visibly moving his body??
You literally see him travelling from one dimension to the other, and his body visibly moving as he does it.
because it isn't movement, it is teleportation, also don't ignore this:Instant Transmission is instantaneous and a Dimensional Warp, yet we can see that it isn't limited by the distance component.
at max this is an anti feat for the 2-C cosmology of toei, and shows that in the continuity of that movie, they aren't separated space times
you only showed A: situations of the toei anime that isn't canon nor connected to the main canon at all and B: showed a teleportation thecnique, which isn't the same as whis' warp which is clearly shown and stated to be a physical flightThis is what I was seeking to prove to you here. Through every animated medium in DB the verse does not abide by distance component as a prerequisite for dimensional travel.
you know that this doesn't disprove that whis is physically flying between universes, and that this is impossible if they are separated space times as per our standards, right?This is why your point concerning the DBS anime is made moot
no? firstly you showed the toei continuity, which is accepted as 2-C on this site, secondly how does it leads me to conceding anything? it is them teleporting from one dimension to another, and then traveling in the said dimension they just teleported, i am not leading to concede with anythingEven if we go with your logic here, it leads to you conceding to the fact that the dimensions have completely different time streams since IT and Kai-Kai are instantaneous, while the dimensions they travel in take time due to the distance component.
no it does not? the instant transmission and the kai kai are teleportation, whis' warp is not, it is physical movement, the method in both are not even the sameNow use that same logic on DBS, and suddenly the 3-A universe argument falls on it's head.
'teleporting super fast' is a contradictionnot inside, it is them teleporting super fast
you can if you have inaccessible speed :^) but let's not delve into toei scaling hereyou can't fight inside teleportation or else it isn't teleportation
'teleporting from one dimension to the other' is him using Instant Transmission. Them trading blows is inside Instant Transmission. Even though it's instant, they still move in it ignoring the distance component. So either you give them inaccessible speed, or say that the verse doesn't take the distance component as a prerequisite for dimensional travel.trading a blow, and then teleporting again,
no, we see his teleporting from one dimension to the other and then visibly moving his body
because it isn't movement, it is teleportation
I only ignored it because it's a bad point that only works when you base it upon other bad points and that adds nothing to the conversation, I see no need to get dissect it in this threadalso don't ignore this:
Because the very same logic that's been applied there on the Toei continuity being 2-C, can also be made on Whis' dimensional travel. And bringing up stuff that's accepted in this site, Whis having dimensional travel is accepted as well.no? firstly you showed the toei continuity, which is accepted as 2-C on this site, secondly how does it leads me to conceding anything?
These points have already been debunked by the others before I got here, I'm not gonna run around this circle too hahahyou know that this doesn't disprove that whis is physically flying between universes, and that this is impossible if they are separated space times as per our standards, right?
whis' warp is not, it is physical movement, the method in both are not even the same
Actually, it's possible for universes to share a body of space by have multiple flows of time; likewise it's possible to have multiple bodies of spaces within a timeline. And there is face value evidence that the Universes are different bodies of spaces + each afterlife is a body of space that each universe contains. Even the bubbles shown is pretty face value. Whis being able to travel via flight simply means Whis has dimensional travel; and it's stated angels can travel to those places but GoD or mortals can't. Also in the end of Chapter Black saga, Whis also was shown to be aware of other timelines; though more likely due to visibly seeing time rings get created, but he also traveled to a brand new timeline just to drop off Future Trunks and Future Mai.Anyway to reiterate I know nothing about DB but, according to the current standard, since normal 3-D physical travel is possible, without the use of any portal or teleportations or the likes and also the fact that time travel affect the whole 12 universes, they are not spatio-temporally separate.
They are both canon sequels to the original manga yes, but various guidebooks made before Dragon Ball Super have described "The Dragon Ball Universe" as having dimensional barriers in time and space. Which I believe Executor already brought it up a while back. But it's implied to refer to all versions of Dragon Ball; Toei Anime and the original Manga (And by extension both versions of Super).yes, so? i think that you are not understanding the point, the db toei continuity has no connection to the the z manga canon wise, both the super manga and the dbs manga are equally canon to z, so their changes retroactively aplies to the z manga, which since z is canon to both dbs anime and manga, aplies to both, plus we already consider the events of the manga as happened in the anime continuity anyway, just have a look at the timeline in the verse page
I still don't see the issue with this; this seems like heavy knit picking at best. And again, Planet of the Kais has more or less the same visual structure + statement about being outside the universe. Yet each Universe has their own version of that too. Also, why is it so much easier to travel from RoSaT to U7 and back than it is to travel from U7 to U6 and back? Or how is Dende and Kami able to create the RoSaT; does he have range more potent than the GoDs or Kaioshin? And does Buu have stronger range than the GoD for being able to portal himself back to U7 when he couldn't make one to U6? So many loopholes if it was further away from U7 than the WoV. Not to mention, someone else brought up saying the RoSaT Frieza talked about might not actually be the same one on Dende's Lookout to top that all out. RoSaT being outside the Macrocosm let alone the whole Multiversal Timeline containing the 12 universes creates far more loopholes of everything that was already established.so? the only times that anyone did that it was when they forced open a portal in the same place that that the door was before, and besides this doesn't prove much, it is just them forcing a portal to universe 7, how would this prove that it is inside universe 7?
Statement in question is either heavily contradicted, completely exaggerated or has an exaggerated contradiction and probably just means outside the living universe body of space at best; and could just be a 2nd planet of the Kais for all we know, or could be referring to a different place altogether.even when directly stated and shown otherwise?
And he himself already commented on the guidebook stuff and agreed them being different bodies of spaces is pretty cut and dry as well as having different histories as Luffy brought up. So considering them different universes is something with enough reasons to consider them Low 2-C individually. Furthermore, it was already agreed to require dimensional travel to travel from U7 to U6, so not a counter argument. And while creating a timeline does create new versions of the other 11 universes, it just means Dragon Ball is a Metaverse with branching timelines left and right.no, he said that it isn't impossible for those things to happen, but you need a direct statement of them being space times for you to use that interpretation, otherwise we go with the less assumption and just consider them not to be space times since it is the more simple interpretation, extraordinary assumptions require extraordinary evidence, saying that the timeline of 12 universes is a specific type of timeline that allows time paradoxes in one universe affect all other even with them being all separated space times is an extraordinary assumption, no extraordinary evidence has been provided yet
There is no Shouldn't. Traveling through time is simply a much bigger time travel and creates timelines containing sub timelines; another common feat in fiction. There are verses where simple time travel creates more 2-A sized multiverses is how the cosmology functions, so timelines being 2-C sized is nothing new nor contradicts the internal universes having temporal axises. The simple parts that matter is that the Universes are different bodies of spaces, and have at least some form of temporal axises; which is supported in numerous pre Dragon Ball Super guidebooks that apply to the original manga too. All attempted counter statements are merely attempts to prove negatives, positives with face value evidence take highest priority and generally override the negatives.yes, but what does this have to do with anything? a new timeline is created yes, but if the 12 universes have their own space and time, then time paradoxes like that shouldn't affect the other 11 universes if they were space times, since they all would have their own "time" independent of each other, thus unaffected
Correct, but destruction of a single universe or multiple is 3-A, but destruction of the entire timeline is low 2-CActually, it's possible for universes to share a body of space by have multiple flows of time; likewise it's possible to have multiple bodies of spaces within a timeline.
If he has shown that he has dimensional travel so what is the argument about him traveling to other universes about? did he ever say he was flying there or was he shown to fly there or he was simply shown to have reached there? cause if it was the last one then we can assume it was due to his dimensional travel, if it was the first 2 then we can say he flew thereAnd there is face value evidence that the Universes are different bodies of spaces + each afterlife is a body of space that each universe contains. Even the bubbles shown is pretty face value. Whis being able to travel via flight simply means Whis has dimensional travel; and it's stated angels can travel to those places but GoD or mortals can't. Also in the end of Chapter Black saga, Whis also was shown to be aware of other timelines; though more likely due to visibly seeing time rings get created, but he also traveled to a brand new timeline just to drop off Future Trunks and Future Mai.
Tbh, the standards about high 3A multiverse is just there for pretty much show and only applies on verses where universes aren't spatially or separated in any other way but just like galaxies within universe. A simple 3 D collections and all. In any other case, or for otherwise, 2C is valid. Even if they are dimensional travelling it's not like universes aren't separated spatially, they still are and aren't even close to being like 3D bodies with 3D space. So... The only thing I can agree with is if all of them are within single spacetime strictly but as the other point was brought up by @Executor_N0 (which I wanted someone to bring up anyway, tho I thought it'll be DT but rather him or any other, I just wanted things for 2C universe to be clear after eliminating all stuff for otherwise case), so now it's seems good. We can just wait for tier 2 thread to reach a conclusion.If he has shown that he has dimensional travel so what is the argument about him traveling to other universes about? did he ever say he was flying there or was he shown to fly there or he was simply shown to have reached there? cause if it was the last one then we can assume it was due to his dimensional travel, if it was the first 2 then we can say he flew there
how so? they teleport, trade a blow, and then teleport again, what is the contradiction?'teleporting super fast' is a contradiction
okyou can if you have inaccessible speed :^) but let's not delve into toei scaling here
what makes you say that?'teleporting from one dimension to the other' is him using Instant Transmission. Them trading blows is inside Instant Transmission.
it is not movement, it is teleportationEven though it's instant, they still move in it ignoring the distance component.
how is the instant transmission from the toei continuity relevant when we are talking about a completely different continuity with no conections to it at all and about a completely different technique? why are we talking about toei at all here?So either you give them inaccessible speed, or say that the verse doesn't take the distance component as a prerequisite for dimensional travel.
you still need to address it tho, or even explain why it is a "bad point"I only ignored it because it's a bad point that only works when you base it upon other bad points and that adds nothing to the conversation, I see no need to get dissect it in this thread
no it can't, the toei continuity has confirmed different space times, the main canon/dbs does not, it is not the same situation at allBecause the very same logic that's been applied there on the Toei continuity being 2-C, can also be made on Whis' dimensional travel.
because it is dimensional travel, but the fact that it is done via physical flight is the problem, since you cannot physically move between space timesAnd bringing up stuff that's accepted in this site, Whis having dimensional travel is accepted as well.
yeah sure, just say that they were debunked and move away, we can at least agree to not move in circlesThese points have already been debunked by the others before I got here, I'm not gonna run around this circle too hahah
we need the source for thisThey are both canon sequels to the original manga yes, but various guidebooks made before Dragon Ball Super have described "The Dragon Ball Universe" as having dimensional barriers in time and space.
i would agree with this, but we need the source for it to be validWhich I believe Executor already brought it up a while back. But it's implied to refer to all versions of Dragon Ball; Toei Anime and the original Manga (And by extension both versions of Super).
we see that the planet of kais has statements, the rosat does notI still don't see the issue with this; this seems like heavy knit picking at best. And again, Planet of the Kais has more or less the same visual structure + statement about being outside the universe. Yet each Universe has their own version of that too.
depends, who said that it is easier?Also, why is it so much easier to travel from RoSaT to U7 and back than it is to travel from U7 to U6 and back?
yes, what is the problem with that? he still has less powerOr how is Dende and Kami able to create the RoSaT; does he have range more potent than the GoDs or Kaioshin?
again who said that he couldn't? he never knew that there were other universes so he never tried, also creating a portal is a hax, so why would it be weird for him to have that?And does Buu have stronger range than the GoD for being able to portal himself back to U7 when he couldn't make one to U6?
they are both the same thing, they are both rosats, to say that they are too different is an assumption that needs proofNot to mention, someone else brought up saying the RoSaT Frieza talked about might not actually be the same one on Dende's Lookout to top that all out.
the wish covered all of universe 7, firstly here where it is said that he will become the strongest outside of the "gods themselves" he uses the world "gods" as in plural, the living universe only has one god in it, beerus, suggesting that it is also talking about the other realms such as the afterlife and the kaioshin realm and the gods that are inside of the said realms, and this the oracle fish says that the wish will shift the balance of universe 7, and that the strongest in the universe 7(which sugest that it is talking about granola and his wish) will arrive, suggesting that all of the universe 7 is included in the wishStatement in question is either heavily contradicted, completely exaggerated or has an exaggerated contradiction and probably just means outside the living universe body of space at best;
it is directly called to be a rosatand could just be a 2nd planet of the Kais for all we know, or could be referring to a different place altogether.
being different bodies of space was always okay, no one argued against that, but they having different histories means nothing, they are different locations, Brazil has a different story than, say, the USA, but they are both still on the same planet, same thing here, unless you are suggesting that the 12 universes are branches of eachother, then this argument doesn't workAnd he himself already commented on the guidebook stuff and agreed them being different bodies of spaces is pretty cut and dry as well as having different histories as Luffy brought up. So considering them different universes is something with enough reasons to consider them Low 2-C individually.
it is dimensional travel, but it is dimensional travel made via physical movement, so still a contradiction to them being space times all the sameFurthermore, it was already agreed to require dimensional travel to travel from U7 to U6, so not a counter argument.
this is a extraordinary assumption, we always go with the simpler assumptions first unless shown otherwise, in this case that all 12 universes share the same time and are 3-AAnd while creating a timeline does create new versions of the other 11 universes, it just means Dragon Ball is a Metaverse with branching timelines left and right.
1 this is anything but commonThere is no Shouldn't. Traveling through time is simply a much bigger time travel and creates timelines containing sub timelines; another common feat in fiction.
yes it wouldn't, but we need proof of them having individual temporal axises in the first place, if not we just assume that they have the same and are 3-A since it requires less assumptionsThere are verses where simple time travel creates more 2-A sized multiverses is how the cosmology functions, so timelines being 2-C sized is nothing new nor contradicts the internal universes having temporal axises.
show the said guidebooks then, we can waitThe simple parts that matter is that the Universes are different bodies of spaces, and have at least some form of temporal axises; which is supported in numerous pre Dragon Ball Super guidebooks that apply to the original manga too.
i say the same to youAll attempted counter statements are merely attempts to prove negatives, positives with face value evidence take highest priority and generally override the negatives.
i second thisAnyway, I don't think it's the best idea to consider timelines different space-time continuums though they are Universe sized and not confident about using Toei Anime exclusive statements not quite in the guidebooks to justify DBS.
he used an technique called "warp" it is described and shown as being flight, vados uses the same thecnique to go to another universe here it is in the end of the video, and it is said to be a physical flight here as said by him to be here, with it even being suggested that if goku peed it would have made it out to space, suggesting physical fligthIf he has shown that he has dimensional travel so what is the argument about him traveling to other universes about? did he ever say he was flying there or was he shown to fly there or he was simply shown to have reached there? cause if it was the last one then we can assume it was due to his dimensional travel, if it was the first 2 then we can say he flew there
i already made one for my side, here:That said I must have missed some of the counters due to the number of messages, If possible can someone just write the TDlr and everyone else should just stop typing in circles.
Write a summary of each sides arguments, preferably a neutral party and leave the rest as it is, nobody should type again so there can be proper evaluation
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Whis just flies to Universe 10’s Kaioshin Realm to meet with Gowasu and Zamasu (DBS Episode 52 - 53).
Whis flew from Universe 7’s living realm to Universe 10’s Kaioshin realm and Vados flew to Universe 7’s Kaioshin realm.
this one of null flower is about the neutral space that separates universes first shown in the tournament between uni 6 and 7Nullflowerblush said:
Luffy, we discussed this in the previous thread.
The kanji used is 空間, which translates into "space; room; airspace", as in a physical space. Like outer space.
just dude stop, you're repeating the same refuted arguments, your comments aren't helping here, you're just repeating the same refuted argument over and over again.how so? they teleport, trade a blow, and then teleport again, what is the contradiction?
ok
what makes you say that?
it is not movement, it is teleportation
how is the instant transmission from the toei continuity relevant when we are talking about a completely different continuity with no conections to it at all and about a completely different technique? why are we talking about toei at all here?
you still need to address it tho, or even explain why it is a "bad point"
no it can't, the toei continuity has confirmed different space times, the main canon/dbs does not, it is not the same situation at all
because it is dimensional travel, but the fact that it is done via physical flight is the problem, since you cannot physically move between space times
yeah sure, just say that they were debunked and move away, we can at least agree to not move in circles
we need the source for this
i would agree with this, but we need the source for it to be valid
we see that the planet of kais has statements, the rosat does not
depends, who said that it is easier?
yes, what is the problem with that? he still has less power
again who said that he couldn't? he never knew that there were other universes so he never tried, also creating a portal is a hax, so why would it be weird for him to have that?
they are both the same thing, they are both rosats, to say that they are too different is an assumption that needs proof
the wish covered all of universe 7, firstly here where it is said that he will become the strongest outside of the "gods themselves" he uses the world "gods" as in plural, the living universe only has one god in it, beerus, suggesting that it is also talking about the other realms such as the afterlife and the kaioshin realm and the gods that are inside of the said realms, and this the oracle fish says that the wish will shift the balance of universe 7, and that the strongest in the universe 7(which sugest that it is talking about granola and his wish) will arrive, suggesting that all of the universe 7 is included in the wish
it is directly called to be a rosat
being different bodies of space was always okay, no one argued against that, but they having different histories means nothing, they are different locations, Brazil has a different story than, say, the USA, but they are both still on the same planet, same thing here, unless you are suggesting that the 12 universes are branches of eachother, then this argument doesn't work
it is dimensional travel, but it is dimensional travel made via physical movement, so still a contradiction to them being space times all the same
this is a extraordinary assumption, we always go with the simpler assumptions first unless shown otherwise, in this case that all 12 universes share the same time and are 3-A
1 this is anything but common
2 to assume that it is this very specific kind of timeline that has sub-timelines inside of it is a far bigger assumption then the 12 universes just being 3-A structures that share the same time
yes it wouldn't, but we need proof of them having individual temporal axises in the first place, if not we just assume that they have the same and are 3-A since it requires less assumptions
show the said guidebooks then, we can wait
i say the same to you
i second this
so is the other side, you are the one not helping by saying that the arguments were refuted over and over again, i already said that we are in a back and forth, if someone could make a summary for a neutral party to evaluate that would help, but no one is doing it for some reasonjust dude stop, you're repeating the same refuted arguments, your comments aren't helping here, you're just repeating the same refuted argument over and over again.
i checked, no scan nor font was ever said, have a good workI have to work soon, but I am pretty sure the evidence was provided all the way back like 2 pages ago. The scans that existed before DBS and what not.
I have to work soon, but I am pretty sure the evidence was provided all the way back like 2 pages ago. The scans that existed before DBS and what not.
ant i made a summary of the arguments here, could you tag staff to it? this is taking forever, thanksI still agree with @DarkDragonMedeus .
What do you think that we should do here, and would you be willing to explain your arguments and available evidence in a single post for the benefit of @Firestorm808 and other staff members here please? You can ask for help to collect all of the evidence from other members here if you wish, either in private or this thread.
he used an technique called "warp" it is described and shown as being flight, vados uses the same thecnique to go to another universe here it is in the end of the video, and it is said to be a physical flight here as said by him to be here, with it even being suggested that if goku peed it would have made it out to space, suggesting physical fligth
i already made one for my side, here:
td,dr is: basically the only reason we accepted the 12 universes as space times was because of the rosat being an confirmed space time and being part of the universe, so it would branch along with it making accptable that other space times could be affect by time paradoxes that happen in just one of them, but as of now, the rosat was accepted as not being part of the universe anymore, that made it so that we had no reason to assume that the 12 universe multiverse in db were space times, since they were all affect by time paradoxes, this and plus the new standards for tier 2 where physical travel is impossible with 3D movement between space times and the need of having a higher 5D dimension separating the supossed space times for universes to be considered space times, in db both were disproven as the angels and the super dragon balls can travel between universes normally with flight and we have confirmed information that what is in between universes is not a higher dimension:
this one of null flower is about the neutral space that separates universes first shown in the tournament between uni 6 and 7
so basically all that makes the 12 universe not alternate spacetimes and just 3-A structures rather then low 2-C ones
edit: as pointed by executor_N0 the term most likely is referring to dimensional space, aka another dimension, but since the term for higher dimension is not used, then the end result is the same
edit: there is also some points about how much all the different dimensions in the macrocosm are separated, but they are never said to be spatio temporal separated, they are just dimensions, not different space times, being a different dimension doesn't mean much
there is also points about universes having different histories and events, but they are not proof of different times since the 12 universes are branches of eachother, they are their own indivudual places and this is no different than a country having a different history from another country
some brought points about the events from the black saga to say that different histories mean different space times, but the whole black saga talks about different timelines and not different universes that are inside said timelines
also some bring points about the time rings from each kai in each universe, but the time rings always comes from when different timelines are created, said timelines that have the 12 universes in them, so the time rings don't prove much regarding this topic
so since they are all affect by time paradoxes even when they are done in only a single universe, and the fact that there is no confirmation that they are space times, we should then go with the less assumption route and just make them 3-A structures
this back and forth is tiring, we all better stop now
okI would much prefer to wait for Medeus.
I also agree with thatI would much prefer to wait for Medeus.
It’s an omnidirectional attack that’ll destroy multiple space time continumms at the same time so time is already in the equation like the Beerus and Champa featyes, so? i think that you are not understanding the point, the db toei continuity has no connection to the the z manga canon wise, both the super manga and the dbs manga are equally canon to z, so their changes retroactively aplies to the z manga, which since z is canon to both dbs anime and manga, aplies to both, plus we already consider the events of the manga as happened in the anime continuity anyway, just have a look at the timeline in the verse page
so? the only times that anyone did that it was when they forced open a portal in the same place that that the door was before, and besides this doesn't prove much, it is just them forcing a portal to universe 7, how would this prove that it is inside universe 7?
even when directly stated and shown otherwise?
you say this based on what exactly?
no, he said that it isn't impossible for those things to happen, but you need a direct statement of them being space times for you to use that interpretation, otherwise we go with the less assumption and just consider them not to be space times since it is the more simple interpretation, extraordinary assumptions require extraordinary evidence, saying that the timeline of 12 universes is a specific type of timeline that allows time paradoxes in one universe affect all other even with them being all separated space times is an extraordinary assumption, no extraordinary evidence has been provided yet
yes, but what does this have to do with anything? a new timeline is created yes, but if the 12 universes have their own space and time, then time paradoxes like that shouldn't affect the other 11 universes if they were space times, since they all would have their own "time" independent of each other, thus unaffected
this link is of the broly movie, currently not considered canon to the toei continuity on this site, besides that, this doesn't show him physically traveling between dimensions, but him going from one dimension to the other, and then physically travelling, at max this is an anti feat for the 2-C cosmology of toei, and shows that in the continuity of that movie, they aren't separated space times
similar situation to the above, this is them teleporting to another dimension, and then physically travelling in another dimension
this is goku and cooler trading blows, what does this have to do with anything?
how does this prove that it includes time?
how does this proves anything related to the topic?
It’s implied the oracle fish wasn’t talking about Granolah at some point iirchow so? they teleport, trade a blow, and then teleport again, what is the contradiction?
ok
what makes you say that?
it is not movement, it is teleportation
how is the instant transmission from the toei continuity relevant when we are talking about a completely different continuity with no conections to it at all and about a completely different technique? why are we talking about toei at all here?
you still need to address it tho, or even explain why it is a "bad point"
no it can't, the toei continuity has confirmed different space times, the main canon/dbs does not, it is not the same situation at all
because it is dimensional travel, but the fact that it is done via physical flight is the problem, since you cannot physically move between space times
yeah sure, just say that they were debunked and move away, we can at least agree to not move in circles
we need the source for this
i would agree with this, but we need the source for it to be valid
we see that the planet of kais has statements, the rosat does not
depends, who said that it is easier?
yes, what is the problem with that? he still has less power
again who said that he couldn't? he never knew that there were other universes so he never tried, also creating a portal is a hax, so why would it be weird for him to have that?
they are both the same thing, they are both rosats, to say that they are too different is an assumption that needs proof
the wish covered all of universe 7, firstly here where it is said that he will become the strongest outside of the "gods themselves" he uses the world "gods" as in plural, the living universe only has one god in it, beerus, suggesting that it is also talking about the other realms such as the afterlife and the kaioshin realm and the gods that are inside of the said realms, and this the oracle fish says that the wish will shift the balance of universe 7, and that the strongest in the universe 7(which sugest that it is talking about granola and his wish) will arrive, suggesting that all of the universe 7 is included in the wish
it is directly called to be a rosat
being different bodies of space was always okay, no one argued against that, but they having different histories means nothing, they are different locations, Brazil has a different story than, say, the USA, but they are both still on the same planet, same thing here, unless you are suggesting that the 12 universes are branches of eachother, then this argument doesn't work
it is dimensional travel, but it is dimensional travel made via physical movement, so still a contradiction to them being space times all the same
this is a extraordinary assumption, we always go with the simpler assumptions first unless shown otherwise, in this case that all 12 universes share the same time and are 3-A
1 this is anything but common
2 to assume that it is this very specific kind of timeline that has sub-timelines inside of it is a far bigger assumption then the 12 universes just being 3-A structures that share the same time
yes it wouldn't, but we need proof of them having individual temporal axises in the first place, if not we just assume that they have the same and are 3-A since it requires less assumptions
show the said guidebooks then, we can wait
i say the same to you
i second this
as for Goku peeing Whis probably didn’t answer and told goku not to do it because it would’ve been inside the white shaft Goku is saying it’ll probably go outside the shaft because he has to pee really bad and Whis is saying not to so yeahhe used an technique called "warp" it is described and shown as being flight, vados uses the same thecnique to go to another universe here it is in the end of the video, and it is said to be a physical flight here as said by him to be here, with it even being suggested that if goku peed it would have made it out to space, suggesting physical fligth
i already made one for my side, here:
td,dr is: basically the only reason we accepted the 12 universes as space times was because of the rosat being an confirmed space time and being part of the universe, so it would branch along with it making accptable that other space times could be affect by time paradoxes that happen in just one of them, but as of now, the rosat was accepted as not being part of the universe anymore, that made it so that we had no reason to assume that the 12 universe multiverse in db were space times, since they were all affect by time paradoxes, this and plus the new standards for tier 2 where physical travel is impossible with 3D movement between space times and the need of having a higher 5D dimension separating the supossed space times for universes to be considered space times, in db both were disproven as the angels and the super dragon balls can travel between universes normally with flight and we have confirmed information that what is in between universes is not a higher dimension:
this one of null flower is about the neutral space that separates universes first shown in the tournament between uni 6 and 7
so basically all that makes the 12 universe not alternate spacetimes and just 3-A structures rather then low 2-C ones
edit: as pointed by executor_N0 the term most likely is referring to dimensional space, aka another dimension, but since the term for higher dimension is not used, then the end result is the same
edit: there is also some points about how much all the different dimensions in the macrocosm are separated, but they are never said to be spatio temporal separated, they are just dimensions, not different space times, being a different dimension doesn't mean much
there is also points about universes having different histories and events, but they are not proof of different times since the 12 universes are branches of eachother, they are their own indivudual places and this is no different than a country having a different history from another country
some brought points about the events from the black saga to say that different histories mean different space times, but the whole black saga talks about different timelines and not different universes that are inside said timelines
also some bring points about the time rings from each kai in each universe, but the time rings always comes from when different timelines are created, said timelines that have the 12 universes in them, so the time rings don't prove much regarding this topic
so since they are all affect by time paradoxes even when they are done in only a single universe, and the fact that there is no confirmation that they are space times, we should then go with the less assumption route and just make them 3-A structures
this back and forth is tiring, we all better stop now
really? huh interesting, there is still the other pointIt’s implied the oracle fish wasn’t talking about Granolah at some point iirc
it is implied thoas for Goku peeing Whis probably didn’t answer and told goku not to do it because it would’ve been inside the white shaft Goku is saying it’ll probably go outside the shaft because he has to pee really bad and Whis is saying not to so yeah
It’s not Whis literally tells Goku not to do such things within the flight and if he does he’ll turn them around and send him to earthreally? huh interesting, there is still the other point
it is implied tho
uh? how does that matter for my point?It’s not Whis literally tells Goku not to do such things within the flight and if he does he’ll turn them around and send him to earth
Medeus who will do it, wait until he arrives, my little friend.uh? how does that matter for my point?
btw could you make a summary of the arguments from the side against the revision? i would help
ok, my big bigger friendMedeus who will do it, wait until he arrives, my little friend.
@DarkDragonMedeusAnyway, as this crt is based of cosmological revision and we already have everything at hands and basically what @Executor_N0 brought up about single time Dimension servicing every universes and Dimensions is something I brought up in my very second crt here on vsbw which was basically me interpreted the explanation of @DontTalkDT . So, we can make single universe 2C, we already composite dragonball cosmology. Universe can be 2C..
I'll be going over the new OP later today.
i also made a summary if you are interestedhe used an technique called "warp" it is described and shown as being flight, vados uses the same thecnique to go to another universe here it is in the end of the video, and it is said to be a physical flight here as said by him to be here, with it even being suggested that if goku peed it would have made it out to space, suggesting physical fligth
i already made one for my side, here:
td,dr is: basically the only reason we accepted the 12 universes as space times was because of the rosat being an confirmed space time and being part of the universe, so it would branch along with it making accptable that other space times could be affect by time paradoxes that happen in just one of them, but as of now, the rosat was accepted as not being part of the universe anymore, that made it so that we had no reason to assume that the 12 universe multiverse in db were space times, since they were all affect by time paradoxes, this and plus the new standards for tier 2 where physical travel is impossible with 3D movement between space times and the need of having a higher 5D dimension separating the supossed space times for universes to be considered space times, in db both were disproven as the angels and the super dragon balls can travel between universes normally with flight and we have confirmed information that what is in between universes is not a higher dimension:
this one of null flower is about the neutral space that separates universes first shown in the tournament between uni 6 and 7
so basically all that makes the 12 universe not alternate spacetimes and just 3-A structures rather then low 2-C ones
edit: as pointed by executor_N0 the term most likely is referring to dimensional space, aka another dimension, but since the term for higher dimension is not used, then the end result is the same
edit: there is also some points about how much all the different dimensions in the macrocosm are separated, but they are never said to be spatio temporal separated, they are just dimensions, not different space times, being a different dimension doesn't mean much
there is also points about universes having different histories and events, but they are not proof of different times since the 12 universes are branches of eachother, they are their own indivudual places and this is no different than a country having a different history from another country
some brought points about the events from the black saga to say that different histories mean different space times, but the whole black saga talks about different timelines and not different universes that are inside said timelines
also some bring points about the time rings from each kai in each universe, but the time rings always comes from when different timelines are created, said timelines that have the 12 universes in them, so the time rings don't prove much regarding this topic
so since they are all affect by time paradoxes even when they are done in only a single universe, and the fact that there is no confirmation that they are space times, we should then go with the less assumption route and just make them 3-A structures
I'll be going over the new OP later today.
Actually, it's possible for universes to share a body of space by have multiple flows of time; likewise it's possible to have multiple bodies of spaces within a timeline. And there is face value evidence that the Universes are different bodies of spaces + each afterlife is a body of space that each universe contains. Even the bubbles shown is pretty face value. Whis being able to travel via flight simply means Whis has dimensional travel; and it's stated angels can travel to those places but GoD or mortals can't. Also in the end of Chapter Black saga, Whis also was shown to be aware of other timelines; though more likely due to visibly seeing time rings get created, but he also traveled to a brand new timeline just to drop off Future Trunks and Future Mai.
They are both canon sequels to the original manga yes, but various guidebooks made before Dragon Ball Super have described "The Dragon Ball Universe" as having dimensional barriers in time and space. Which I believe Executor already brought it up a while back. But it's implied to refer to all versions of Dragon Ball; Toei Anime and the original Manga (And by extension both versions of Super).
I still don't see the issue with this; this seems like heavy knit picking at best. And again, Planet of the Kais has more or less the same visual structure + statement about being outside the universe. Yet each Universe has their own version of that too. Also, why is it so much easier to travel from RoSaT to U7 and back than it is to travel from U7 to U6 and back? Or how is Dende and Kami able to create the RoSaT; does he have range more potent than the GoDs or Kaioshin? And does Buu have stronger range than the GoD for being able to portal himself back to U7 when he couldn't make one to U6? So many loopholes if it was further away from U7 than the WoV. Not to mention, someone else brought up saying the RoSaT Frieza talked about might not actually be the same one on Dende's Lookout to top that all out. RoSaT being outside the Macrocosm let alone the whole Multiversal Timeline containing the 12 universes creates far more loopholes of everything that was already established.
Statement in question is either heavily contradicted, completely exaggerated or has an exaggerated contradiction and probably just means outside the living universe body of space at best; and could just be a 2nd planet of the Kais for all we know, or could be referring to a different place altogether.
And he himself already commented on the guidebook stuff and agreed them being different bodies of spaces is pretty cut and dry as well as having different histories as Luffy brought up. So considering them different universes is something with enough reasons to consider them Low 2-C individually. Furthermore, it was already agreed to require dimensional travel to travel from U7 to U6, so not a counter argument. And while creating a timeline does create new versions of the other 11 universes, it just means Dragon Ball is a Metaverse with branching timelines left and right.
There is no Shouldn't. Traveling through time is simply a much bigger time travel and creates timelines containing sub timelines; another common feat in fiction. There are verses where simple time travel creates more 2-A sized multiverses is how the cosmology functions, so timelines being 2-C sized is nothing new nor contradicts the internal universes having temporal axises. The simple parts that matter is that the Universes are different bodies of spaces, and have at least some form of temporal axises; which is supported in numerous pre Dragon Ball Super guidebooks that apply to the original manga too. All attempted counter statements are merely attempts to prove negatives, positives with face value evidence take highest priority and generally override the negatives.
Anyway, I don't think it's the best idea to consider timelines different space-time continuums though they are Universe sized and not confident about using Toei Anime exclusive statements not quite in the guidebooks to justify DBS. But the bare minimum is that U7 is Low 2-C sized thus the timeline is 2-C sized which us used for the tiers.
If possible read them all, the arguments above were all unmasked, now it's just waiting for the god to vote for the Universes of Dragon Ball being 2-CNone of what's being brought up is a counter against Tier 2 cosmologies; dimensional travel is possible with finite speed and Executor is being the most level headed debater here when it comes to our Tier 2 and above policies. But it seems the other thread is where that's being debated now, so might as well stop spamming at least until that is concluded.
just to say to peopleAs for other stuff or saying U7 is 2-C sized and by extension the rest of the timeline is even bigger levels of 2-C? I'm not sure; I don't think using Toei Anime exclusive statement to call that 2-C sized is the best idea. As for the "Demon World/Universe" in the original manga. That actually is interesting; I heard it is not the same as Hell/HFIL, but if it's another "Universe" that is also included in U7, I'm not sure if that is evidence for 2-C though.