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I guess
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Dragon Ball Cosmology Revision
- Thread starter Aachintya31
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yes, so? i think that you are not understanding the point, the db toei continuity has no connection to the the z manga canon wise, both the super manga and the dbs manga are equally canon to z, so their changes retroactively aplies to the z manga, which since z is canon to both dbs anime and manga, aplies to both, plus we already consider the events of the manga as happened in the anime continuity anyway, just have a look at the timeline in the verse page
so? the only times that anyone did that it was when they forced open a portal in the same place that that the door was before, and besides this doesn't prove much, it is just them forcing a portal to universe 7, how would this prove that it is inside universe 7?
even when directly stated and shown otherwise?
you say this based on what exactly?
no, he said that it isn't impossible for those things to happen, but you need a direct statement of them being space times for you to use that interpretation, otherwise we go with the less assumption and just consider them not to be space times since it is the more simple interpretation, extraordinary assumptions require extraordinary evidence, saying that the timeline of 12 universes is a specific type of timeline that allows time paradoxes in one universe affect all other even with them being all separated space times is an extraordinary assumption, no extraordinary evidence has been provided yet
yes, but what does this have to do with anything? a new timeline is created yes, but if the 12 universes have their own space and time, then time paradoxes like that shouldn't affect the other 11 universes if they were space times, since they all would have their own "time" independent of each other, thus unaffected
this link is of the broly movie, currently not considered canon to the toei continuity on this site, besides that, this doesn't show him physically traveling between dimensions, but him going from one dimension to the other, and then physically travelling, at max this is an anti feat for the 2-C cosmology of toei, and shows that in the continuity of that movie, they aren't separated space times
similar situation to the above, this is them teleporting to another dimension, and then physically travelling in another dimension
this is goku and cooler trading blows, what does this have to do with anything?
how does this prove that it includes time?
how does this proves anything related to the topic?
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the reason for them to not be 2-C is the same for the argument of the universes not being low 2-C, physical travel is possible(as shown by whis) and they have no mention of being space times, toei here is irrelevant since it doesn't have any conection the the z manga as it is its own thing, besides it was said already in this and in the past threads, we don't consider toei cosmology as the same as the db main canon cosmology, toei is litterally irrelevant here
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people can we not derail with "2-C macrocosm db universe" topic? it doesn't concern this thread and it is another topic altogether
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let's calm down, have some tea to calm down, my friend, now there's nothing else to do, everything here has been refuted and applications are being awaited.
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It is but if @Executor_N0 points are valid then we have same case for afterlife as for each universe.
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the afterlife is accepted as Universal in size
"Heaven is also stated to be as big as a universe several times. Hell is stated to be even bigger than heaven, meaning it's as big as the universe too".
Dragon Ball
For detailed information about this series from the Dragon Ball Wiki, you can click here. A kid named Son Goku grows up, trains to be a strong fighter, and eventually becomes the protector of the Earth along with his descendants: Gohan and Goten. Along the way, he makes powerful allies and even...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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What you're seeing is them fighting inside Instant Transmission. It happens many times in the movie, you can go watch it if you want
??
You literally see him travelling from one dimension to the other, and his body visibly moving as he does it. Instant Transmission is instantaneous and a Dimensional Warp, yet we can see that it isn't limited by the distance component.
This is what I was seeking to prove to you here. Through every animated medium in DB the verse does not abide by distance component as a prerequisite for dimensional travel. This is why your point concerning the DBS anime is made moot
Even if we go with your logic here, it leads to you conceding to the fact that the dimensions have completely different time streams since IT and Kai-Kai are instantaneous, while the dimensions they travel in take time due to the distance component.
Now use that same logic on DBS, and suddenly the 3-A universe argument falls on it's head.
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well, here is the thing, this is the topic of the thread, if anyone wants to make a thread about this after this one then that is okay, but we are talking about the universes now, the afterlife point is a whole other debate that would require yet another thread
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dude can you drop the attitude please?
not inside, it is them teleporting super fast, trading a blow, and then teleporting again, the thecnique is teleportation, you can't fight inside teleportation or else it isn't teleportation
What you're seeing is them fighting inside Instant Transmission. It happens many times in the movie, you can go watch it if you want
no, we see his teleporting from one dimension to the other and then visibly moving his body
because it isn't movement, it is teleportation, also don't ignore this:
you only showed A: situations of the toei anime that isn't canon nor connected to the main canon at all and B: showed a teleportation thecnique, which isn't the same as whis' warp which is clearly shown and stated to be a physical flight
you know that this doesn't disprove that whis is physically flying between universes, and that this is impossible if they are separated space times as per our standards, right?
no? firstly you showed the toei continuity, which is accepted as 2-C on this site, secondly how does it leads me to conceding anything? it is them teleporting from one dimension to another, and then traveling in the said dimension they just teleported, i am not leading to concede with anything
no it does not? the instant transmission and the kai kai are teleportation, whis' warp is not, it is physical movement, the method in both are not even the same
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'teleporting super fast' is a contradiction
you can if you have inaccessible speed :^) but let's not delve into toei scaling here
'teleporting from one dimension to the other' is him using Instant Transmission. Them trading blows is inside Instant Transmission. Even though it's instant, they still move in it ignoring the distance component. So either you give them inaccessible speed, or say that the verse doesn't take the distance component as a prerequisite for dimensional travel.
I only ignored it because it's a bad point that only works when you base it upon other bad points and that adds nothing to the conversation, I see no need to get dissect it in this thread
Because the very same logic that's been applied there on the Toei continuity being 2-C, can also be made on Whis' dimensional travel. And bringing up stuff that's accepted in this site, Whis having dimensional travel is accepted as well.
These points have already been debunked by the others before I got here, I'm not gonna run around this circle too hahah
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Actually, it's possible for universes to share a body of space by have multiple flows of time; likewise it's possible to have multiple bodies of spaces within a timeline. And there is face value evidence that the Universes are different bodies of spaces + each afterlife is a body of space that each universe contains. Even the bubbles shown is pretty face value. Whis being able to travel via flight simply means Whis has dimensional travel; and it's stated angels can travel to those places but GoD or mortals can't. Also in the end of Chapter Black saga, Whis also was shown to be aware of other timelines; though more likely due to visibly seeing time rings get created, but he also traveled to a brand new timeline just to drop off Future Trunks and Future Mai.
They are both canon sequels to the original manga yes, but various guidebooks made before Dragon Ball Super have described "The Dragon Ball Universe" as having dimensional barriers in time and space. Which I believe Executor already brought it up a while back. But it's implied to refer to all versions of Dragon Ball; Toei Anime and the original Manga (And by extension both versions of Super).
I still don't see the issue with this; this seems like heavy knit picking at best. And again, Planet of the Kais has more or less the same visual structure + statement about being outside the universe. Yet each Universe has their own version of that too. Also, why is it so much easier to travel from RoSaT to U7 and back than it is to travel from U7 to U6 and back? Or how is Dende and Kami able to create the RoSaT; does he have range more potent than the GoDs or Kaioshin? And does Buu have stronger range than the GoD for being able to portal himself back to U7 when he couldn't make one to U6? So many loopholes if it was further away from U7 than the WoV. Not to mention, someone else brought up saying the RoSaT Frieza talked about might not actually be the same one on Dende's Lookout to top that all out. RoSaT being outside the Macrocosm let alone the whole Multiversal Timeline containing the 12 universes creates far more loopholes of everything that was already established.
Statement in question is either heavily contradicted, completely exaggerated or has an exaggerated contradiction and probably just means outside the living universe body of space at best; and could just be a 2nd planet of the Kais for all we know, or could be referring to a different place altogether.
And he himself already commented on the guidebook stuff and agreed them being different bodies of spaces is pretty cut and dry as well as having different histories as Luffy brought up. So considering them different universes is something with enough reasons to consider them Low 2-C individually. Furthermore, it was already agreed to require dimensional travel to travel from U7 to U6, so not a counter argument. And while creating a timeline does create new versions of the other 11 universes, it just means Dragon Ball is a Metaverse with branching timelines left and right.
There is no Shouldn't. Traveling through time is simply a much bigger time travel and creates timelines containing sub timelines; another common feat in fiction. There are verses where simple time travel creates more 2-A sized multiverses is how the cosmology functions, so timelines being 2-C sized is nothing new nor contradicts the internal universes having temporal axises. The simple parts that matter is that the Universes are different bodies of spaces, and have at least some form of temporal axises; which is supported in numerous pre Dragon Ball Super guidebooks that apply to the original manga too. All attempted counter statements are merely attempts to prove negatives, positives with face value evidence take highest priority and generally override the negatives.
Anyway, I don't think it's the best idea to consider timelines different space-time continuums though they are Universe sized and not confident about using Toei Anime exclusive statements not quite in the guidebooks to justify DBS. But the bare minimum is that U7 is Low 2-C sized thus the timeline is 2-C sized which us used for the tiers.
PrinceofPein
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Correct, but destruction of a single universe or multiple is 3-A, but destruction of the entire timeline is low 2-C
If he has shown that he has dimensional travel so what is the argument about him traveling to other universes about? did he ever say he was flying there or was he shown to fly there or he was simply shown to have reached there? cause if it was the last one then we can assume it was due to his dimensional travel, if it was the first 2 then we can say he flew there
That said I must have missed some of the counters due to the number of messages, If possible can someone just write the TDlr and everyone else should just stop typing in circles.
Write a summary of each sides arguments, preferably a neutral party and leave the rest as it is, nobody should type again so there can be proper evaluation
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Tbh, the standards about high 3A multiverse is just there for pretty much show and only applies on verses where universes aren't spatially or separated in any other way but just like galaxies within universe. A simple 3 D collections and all. In any other case, or for otherwise, 2C is valid. Even if they are dimensional travelling it's not like universes aren't separated spatially, they still are and aren't even close to being like 3D bodies with 3D space. So... The only thing I can agree with is if all of them are within single spacetime strictly but as the other point was brought up by @Executor_N0 (which I wanted someone to bring up anyway, tho I thought it'll be DT but rather him or any other, I just wanted things for 2C universe to be clear after eliminating all stuff for otherwise case), so now it's seems good. We can just wait for tier 2 thread to reach a conclusion.
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how so? they teleport, trade a blow, and then teleport again, what is the contradiction?
ok
what makes you say that?
it is not movement, it is teleportation
how is the instant transmission from the toei continuity relevant when we are talking about a completely different continuity with no conections to it at all and about a completely different technique? why are we talking about toei at all here?
you still need to address it tho, or even explain why it is a "bad point"
no it can't, the toei continuity has confirmed different space times, the main canon/dbs does not, it is not the same situation at all
because it is dimensional travel, but the fact that it is done via physical flight is the problem, since you cannot physically move between space times
yeah sure, just say that they were debunked and move away, we can at least agree to not move in circles
we need the source for this
i would agree with this, but we need the source for it to be valid
we see that the planet of kais has statements, the rosat does not
depends, who said that it is easier?
yes, what is the problem with that? he still has less power
again who said that he couldn't? he never knew that there were other universes so he never tried, also creating a portal is a hax, so why would it be weird for him to have that?
they are both the same thing, they are both rosats, to say that they are too different is an assumption that needs proof
the wish covered all of universe 7, firstly here where it is said that he will become the strongest outside of the "gods themselves" he uses the world "gods" as in plural, the living universe only has one god in it, beerus, suggesting that it is also talking about the other realms such as the afterlife and the kaioshin realm and the gods that are inside of the said realms, and this the oracle fish says that the wish will shift the balance of universe 7, and that the strongest in the universe 7(which sugest that it is talking about granola and his wish) will arrive, suggesting that all of the universe 7 is included in the wish
it is directly called to be a rosat
being different bodies of space was always okay, no one argued against that, but they having different histories means nothing, they are different locations, Brazil has a different story than, say, the USA, but they are both still on the same planet, same thing here, unless you are suggesting that the 12 universes are branches of eachother, then this argument doesn't work
it is dimensional travel, but it is dimensional travel made via physical movement, so still a contradiction to them being space times all the same
this is a extraordinary assumption, we always go with the simpler assumptions first unless shown otherwise, in this case that all 12 universes share the same time and are 3-A
1 this is anything but common
2 to assume that it is this very specific kind of timeline that has sub-timelines inside of it is a far bigger assumption then the 12 universes just being 3-A structures that share the same time
yes it wouldn't, but we need proof of them having individual temporal axises in the first place, if not we just assume that they have the same and are 3-A since it requires less assumptions
show the said guidebooks then, we can wait
i say the same to you
i second this
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he used an technique called "warp" it is described and shown as being flight, vados uses the same thecnique to go to another universe here it is in the end of the video, and it is said to be a physical flight here as said by him to be here, with it even being suggested that if goku peed it would have made it out to space, suggesting physical fligth
i already made one for my side, here:
td,dr is: basically the only reason we accepted the 12 universes as space times was because of the rosat being an confirmed space time and being part of the universe, so it would branch along with it making accptable that other space times could be affect by time paradoxes that happen in just one of them, but as of now, the rosat was accepted as not being part of the universe anymore, that made it so that we had no reason to assume that the 12 universe multiverse in db were space times, since they were all affect by time paradoxes, this and plus the new standards for tier 2 where physical travel is impossible with 3D movement between space times and the need of having a higher 5D dimension separating the supossed space times for universes to be considered space times, in db both were disproven as the angels and the super dragon balls can travel between universes normally with flight and we have confirmed information that what is in between universes is not a higher dimension:
this one of null flower is about the neutral space that separates universes first shown in the tournament between uni 6 and 7
so basically all that makes the 12 universe not alternate spacetimes and just 3-A structures rather then low 2-C ones
edit: as pointed by executor_N0 the term most likely is referring to dimensional space, aka another dimension, but since the term for higher dimension is not used, then the end result is the same, also it is shown to just be a regular cosmos with stars and planets and galaxies, which contradicts it being a higher dimension
edit: there is also some points about how much all the different dimensions in the macrocosm are separated, but they are never said to be spatio temporal separated, they are just dimensions, not different space times, being a different dimension doesn't mean much
there is also points about universes having different histories and events, but they are not proof of different times since the 12 universes are branches of eachother, they are their own indivudual places and this is no different than a country having a different history from another country
some brought points about the events from the black saga to say that different histories mean different space times, but the whole black saga talks about different timelines and not different universes that are inside said timelines
also some bring points about the time rings from each kai in each universe, but the time rings always comes from when different timelines are created, said timelines that have the 12 universes in them, so the time rings don't prove much regarding this topic
so since they are all affect by time paradoxes even when they are done in only a single universe, and the fact that there is no confirmation that they are space times, we should then go with the less assumption route and just make them 3-A structures
this back and forth is tiring, we all better stop now
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just dude stop, you're repeating the same refuted arguments, your comments aren't helping here, you're just repeating the same refuted argument over and over again.
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I have to work soon, but I am pretty sure the evidence was provided all the way back like 2 pages ago. The scans that existed before DBS and what not.
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so is the other side, you are the one not helping by saying that the arguments were refuted over and over again, i already said that we are in a back and forth, if someone could make a summary for a neutral party to evaluate that would help, but no one is doing it for some reason
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i checked, no scan nor font was ever said, have a good work
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Akira toriyama interview about Universe 7, he explicitly mentions that the world of the Kaioshins is outside the Universe
"and the Kaiōshin oversee all that from the outside"
and once again Akira toriyama mentioned that entry is impossible
all sources are taken directly from the work and said by Akira toriyama, everything he says is law.
source:
Translations | Dragon Ball Full Color: Majin Buu Arc Volume #05 (04 July 2014)
Shueisha and Akira Toriyama answer questions in the fifth Majin Buu arc Full Color manga release. English translation by Kanzenshuu.
www.kanzenshuu.com
it is said that the world of the living and the dead are separated by a barrier
"the universe is located beneath the World Beyond, and it is hermetically sealed by a barrier that is engraved with a strange design".
having a different history will result in an entirely different flow of time, as demonstrated in the Black Saga.
all 12 Universes do not share the same history, different history suggests totally different times, as presented by the trunks, where an event occurs in one universe will not affect another
Each universe has its own history, like Universe 6 being a twin, although being twins have totally different histories, separated by different space-times.
For each universe, there is a distinct timeline, here it is mentioned that there are several time rings with all Kaioshins
https://imgur.com/a/tLEWtBa
Continuing... Right here, the work brings the same concept used in the databook and in other guides, where no mortal can go to the afterlife and the world of the Kaioshins
https://imgur.com/a/pT2btxj
I repeat, no mortal can go to other planes, except Gods with teleportation and angels with dimensional travel.
https://imgur.com/a/3eliPu0
There are more than three evidences, both in the manga, anime, and by Akira toriyama, the afterlife world is separate, which no mortal is able to access.
as you can see, it's still the same premise, nothing has changed, except the 12 Universes, they contain more afterlife, as you can see the world of Kaioshins and afterlife is separate, there is a barrier separating them, which is only accessible via teleportation and dimensional travel
https://imgur.com/a/e8dJvxc
It is noted that there are barriers with strange names separating the afterlife from the living world, as in the description of the databook and guide
and once again it is confirmed that no one can access another world
https://imgur.com/a/yu5t9Vc
there is also mention of another dimension, and that already has sizes confirmed in the manga
https://imgur.com/Gx6pl11
https://imgur.com/a/W3A9eEp
Of course there is more evidence, but then my text would be huge
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I still agree with @DarkDragonMedeus .
What do you think that we should do here, and would you be willing to explain your arguments and available evidence in a single post for the benefit of @Firestorm808 and other staff members here please? You can ask for help to collect all of the evidence from other members here if you wish, either in private or this thread.
What do you think that we should do here, and would you be willing to explain your arguments and available evidence in a single post for the benefit of @Firestorm808 and other staff members here please? You can ask for help to collect all of the evidence from other members here if you wish, either in private or this thread.
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ant i made a summary of the arguments here, could you tag staff to it? this is taking forever, thanks
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I also agree with that
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It’s an omnidirectional attack that’ll destroy multiple space time continumms at the same time so time is already in the equation like the Beerus and Champa feat
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It’s implied the oracle fish wasn’t talking about Granolah at some point iirc
as for Goku peeing Whis probably didn’t answer and told goku not to do it because it would’ve been inside the white shaft Goku is saying it’ll probably go outside the shaft because he has to pee really bad and Whis is saying not to so yeah
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really? huh interesting, there is still the other point
it is implied tho
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It’s not Whis literally tells Goku not to do such things within the flight and if he does he’ll turn them around and send him to earth
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uh? how does that matter for my point?
btw could you make a summary of the arguments from the side against the revision? i would help
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Medeus who will do it, wait until he arrives, my little friend.
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ok, my big bigger friend
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I'll be going over the new OP later today.
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i also made a summary if you are interested
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If possible read them all, the arguments above were all unmasked, now it's just waiting for the god to vote for the Universes of Dragon Ball being 2-C
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I don't feel like writing giant posts just to address a bunch of things already countered numerous times by Executor, Luffy, ect. But the "Warp" ability is dimensional travel at Massively FTL+ speed, but it's still dimensional travel. They don't need to be teleporting or entering portals, it's just they can fly in a pattern that crosses a 4th spatial dimension; which some technically call the 5th dimension but I usually prefer to number spatial dimensions and temporal dimensions separately. But it allows him to fly to different bodies of spaces.
Luffy already brought up the "Universes having different histories" thing and Executor has a scan for different universes being different bodies of spaces. So I accept those as U7 and U6 being different space-time continuums. Thus the timeline as 2-C sized.
RoSaT stuff have no evidence period; everything points to it being closer U7's living universe than it does any of the other 11 universes. And there's 0 reason for Buu's or SSJ3 Gotenks' range to be above Beerus' as he doesn't have the power. As would Dende's range be above Beerus, Whis, or the Kaioshin as he was able to recreate the RoSaT after Vegeta destroyed it. Destroying the RoSaT also destroyed the building on the Lookout.
Also, I'm not sure where people are getting "Higher dimension", no one is saying anything about Low 1-C stuff nor does it need to be traveling between higher dimension to be dimensional travel. The proposal is merely 2-C.
As for other stuff or saying U7 is 2-C sized and by extension the rest of the timeline is even bigger levels of 2-C? I'm not sure; I don't think using Toei Anime exclusive statement to call that 2-C sized is the best idea. As for the "Demon World/Universe" in the original manga. That actually is interesting; I heard it is not the same as Hell/HFIL, but if it's another "Universe" that is also included in U7, I'm not sure if that is evidence for 2-C though.
Overall, I'm unsure but think it's best to keep the respective tiers where they currently are.
Luffy already brought up the "Universes having different histories" thing and Executor has a scan for different universes being different bodies of spaces. So I accept those as U7 and U6 being different space-time continuums. Thus the timeline as 2-C sized.
RoSaT stuff have no evidence period; everything points to it being closer U7's living universe than it does any of the other 11 universes. And there's 0 reason for Buu's or SSJ3 Gotenks' range to be above Beerus' as he doesn't have the power. As would Dende's range be above Beerus, Whis, or the Kaioshin as he was able to recreate the RoSaT after Vegeta destroyed it. Destroying the RoSaT also destroyed the building on the Lookout.
Also, I'm not sure where people are getting "Higher dimension", no one is saying anything about Low 1-C stuff nor does it need to be traveling between higher dimension to be dimensional travel. The proposal is merely 2-C.
As for other stuff or saying U7 is 2-C sized and by extension the rest of the timeline is even bigger levels of 2-C? I'm not sure; I don't think using Toei Anime exclusive statement to call that 2-C sized is the best idea. As for the "Demon World/Universe" in the original manga. That actually is interesting; I heard it is not the same as Hell/HFIL, but if it's another "Universe" that is also included in U7, I'm not sure if that is evidence for 2-C though.
Overall, I'm unsure but think it's best to keep the respective tiers where they currently are.
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being flight is a problem, since currently, our standard say that it is impossible to cross with physical movement, but this point is being discussed in the tier 2 thread so i will not go super into it, what separates the universes is just another dimension of regular cosmos
why would "different histories" matter here? how is this any different than, say, two countries having different histories?
the rosat does have evidence, a direct statement even, gotenks having that range with a specific hax is independent of how powerful he is in comparison to beerus, same case for dende, it is with an specific hability, power is not relevant when the range is with an specific hax, vegeta destroying the building is just him going out of the rosat and then destroying the building when he is out
what separates the universes needs to be a higher dimension as per our standards, which it is shown to not be the case in db but just a regular cosmos, that is the problem
Note:
2. Don't bring up stuff like Afterlife Being a separate space-time or anything similar. This has been discussed before and a discussion rule exists for this reason. Every other realmn in Universe 7 shares the same space-time as the living universe.
the op has a note to not discuss this, so idk why so many people are
why would "different histories" matter here? how is this any different than, say, two countries having different histories?
the rosat does have evidence, a direct statement even, gotenks having that range with a specific hax is independent of how powerful he is in comparison to beerus, same case for dende, it is with an specific hability, power is not relevant when the range is with an specific hax, vegeta destroying the building is just him going out of the rosat and then destroying the building when he is out
what separates the universes needs to be a higher dimension as per our standards, which it is shown to not be the case in db but just a regular cosmos, that is the problem
just to say to people
Note:
2. Don't bring up stuff like Afterlife Being a separate space-time or anything similar. This has been discussed before and a discussion rule exists for this reason. Every other realmn in Universe 7 shares the same space-time as the living universe.
the op has a note to not discuss this, so idk why so many people are
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