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Dragon Ball Cosmology Revision

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What? The mention of the warp ability isn’t just about changing in its mechanics, it’s to argue it makes the universe the same space which is.. changing the cosmology. There’s nothing new being argued in regards to it.
 
Sure, but that’s not the case here. This is about using an old, rejected argument, and notably with the same old, rejected evidence thus going against the DB discussion rules.
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Let the staff decide. Only thing that was stopping DB got downgraded regardless of several contradiction, is that U7 contains RoSaT (the only thing Dragonball had) After tier 2 revision. We know now that this assumption was wrong, so contradiction was right. And what my waifu @Nullflowerblush said above. Leave the things to staff now. We don't have to make it 8 pages.
 
Let the staff decide. Only thing that was stopping DB got downgraded regardless of several contradiction
The only point that could’ve been taken as a contradiction but was reconciled with the RoSaT cited on Zeno’s page is them being part of the same timeline, not all being in the literal same space which is a rejected argument against the discussion rule. U7 on its own is already accepted as being made of multiple universal bodies separated by space, despite being the same space-time.
 
The only point that could’ve been taken as a contradiction but was reconciled with the RoSaT cited on Zeno’s page is them being part of the same timeline, not all being in the literal same space. U7 on its own is already accepted as being made of multiple universal bodies separated by space, despite being the same space-time.
This is a Staff Discussion thread.
 
Can somebody explain why the different Dragon Ball universes ashould not considered to be separate anymore, as well as the counter-arguments, please?
Because frieza stated that the RoSaT that he was in was in a different dimension so it’s not inside the macrocosm but the argument is that since it’s not the macrocosm there’s no proof it’s affected by RoSaT and the argument is under the assumption that the RoSaT is not only not linked to the macrocosm but not in the entire timeline at all which hasn’t been proven or implied

my counter argument is that the RoSaT is stated to be a subspace which means it’s a space inside of a space meaning that the RoSaT is encompassed by another space (The timeline)
 
The RoSaT is stated to be a subspace meaning a space inside a space even if not within the universe this would be inside the timeline so unless there’s proof of it being it’s own timeline or time ring that’s outside of the timeline it shouldnt be applied https://imgur.io/a/WBlQubo#YVAm6M4
we went over this, this part is talking about the areas of the living universe, the multiverse was not a thing during that time, so it is talking about it being part of the living universe, which as stated in the other threads was contradicted

Can somebody explain why the different Dragon Ball universes ashould not considered to be separate anymore, as well as the counter-arguments, please?
mostly in the op, here:
Arguments From Previous Thread :
1.The Problem is that Room of Spirit and Time a.k.a ROSAT was only assumed to be a part of the Universe 7 Macrocosm because multiverse wasn't established at that point in the series.
However ,in the recent Dragon Ball Super Manga Chapter 87 ,we have this dialogue from Frieza which implies other dimensions like ROSAT are outside the universe, and it was later confirmed that the statement covers entirety of the Universe 7 Macrocosm supported by Dragon ball media. So ,its not just the Living universe but the entire Macrocosm as a whole.
2.Daizenshuu 4 states
The temple's lower portion is filled with complicated, maze-like passageways, and the entrance to the Room of Spirit and Time is at the deepest part of the temple. The room here exists in a separate dimension
3. Zeno Guards and Angels can travel physically between universes as shown here and stated here. Our current standard has one condition that physical travel should be impossible for them to be considered separate space-time

Counter-Arguments From Previous Thread :
1. When Buu Vice Shouted himself out of RoSaT, he landed in Kami's Lookout. When Vegeta smashed the RoSaT forcing the need to restore/rebuild it, Vegeta also landed on Kami's Lookout.
I guess it depends on how we treat visuals over statements for location of two space-time.
2.This is a manga statement. Just a downgrade for manga
Well Dragon ball follows a composite cosmology for a long time. The cosmology is considered same here by the staff Also the evidence of ROSAT for anime is weak in itself. This is used as a supplementary evidence for an information which is unclear and matters greatly.
Universes are default Low 2-C. So timeline qualifies 2-C automatically
This is true unless proven otherwise. DB has a lot of anti-feats added above.
also the one counter above
 
Can somebody explain why the different Dragon Ball universes ashould not considered to be separate anymore, as well as the counter-arguments, please?
against my arguments is the following, there is a dimension that separates the Universes, staying between them, you need a cube to go to another universe, it is impossible to travel without a cube (if it is not a angel )

Every time an angel crosses the Universe there is a distortion in space-time, as shown in the argument above, and it is not just decoration, because it is shown that angels can go to the future and go back, with only her ability, shown just above, and about the room of time it only has different time, but it is on the same planet, if she stayed outside the Universe would fall into another dimension, as shown in the movie Brolly, where he tears space-time and there is a dimension that is outside of reality.
 
we went over this, this part is talking about the areas of the living universe, the multiverse was not a thing during that time, so it is talking about it being part of the living universe, which as stated in the other threads was contradicted


mostly in the op, here:

also the one counter above
I’m not saying it’s apart of the universe I’m saying it’s a subspace within the timeline the RoSaT is a space within a space and even if it’s not in the macrocosm (not my argument so idk why you keep bringing it up) it can be referring to the timeline and that’s not contradicted saying that’s it’s not inside the timeline and it is it’s own timeline is head canon and there’s no evidence to back that up if there’s scans or statements of the RoSaT being its own timeline and not being Inside the timeline at all like is being claimed I’ll concede
 
I’m not saying it’s apart of the universe I’m saying it’s a subspace within the timeline the RoSaT
and i am saying that the guide is saying that the guide is talking about the living universe and its subsection, therefore it is saying that the rosat is a part of the living universe as a subspace, will not answer this further and will wait for staff to evaluate since this is a staff thread, you should do the same to avoid back and forth
 
and i am saying that the guide is saying that the guide is talking about the living universe and its subsection, therefore it is saying that the rosat is a part of the living universe as a subspace, will not answer this further and will wait for staff to evaluate since this is a staff thread, you should do the same to avoid back and forth
The Universe and The World Beyond section but sure we can wait for staff
 
Super Shenron grants wishes. The Dragon Ball themselves are incapable of restoring entire universes from erasure. The Dragon Ball themselves are giant crystal balls, and the Namekian Dragon Balls what were chipped off of the original scatter in a very non-transcending space-timey wimey manner.
 
Well Super Shenron can grant any wish and pretty much do anything so that doesn’t mean anything
I don’t see how Super Shenron’s Wish Granting capabilities correlate to the SDBs moving between universes through what appeared to be simple flight.
 
I don’t see how Super Shenron’s Wish Granting capabilities correlate to the SDBs moving between universes through what appeared to be simple flight.
Well he has the ability to change sizes so idk but it did seem like the sdb’s just went off to the distance so I see your point but usually special ways of transportation are needed like what Luffy has sent
 
I don’t see how Super Shenron’s Wish Granting capabilities correlate to the SDBs moving between universes through what appeared to be simple flight.
Kind of normal for this to happen, Super Shenron left the world of emptiness like nothing, why would that prevent the super dragon balls from doing the same thing?

 
Can somebody explain why the different Dragon Ball universes ashould not considered to be separate anymore, as well as the counter-arguments, please?
Please tag DB supporters, half of the admins are against the verse, I noticed that some are nauseous about the verse they disagree with, would it be possible to call out some who really understand about the verse? Thank you very much.
 
Please tag DB supporters, half of the admins are against the verse, I noticed that some are nauseous about the verse they disagree with, would it be possible to call out some who really understand about the verse? Thank you very much.
I love dragon ball with all my heart. It is, unironically, my favorite shonen of all time, as well as my favorite manga series. I could give entire essays and thesis about numerous aspects from the series, from the philosophies, to the humanity of certain characters, to the verse mechanics and portrayal of martial arts, to its comedy, to its endurance throughout the ages, and many more.

Why do I preface this? Because while I love the serie to death and back, and hold it dear to my heart; if it turns out it doesn't conform to the standards of the site for a certain tier, then it needs to be downgraded, regardless of how much we love it or not.

The staff, whether we like it or not, are the ultimate authority regarding the sites standards. If after every piece of information given, it is deemed that Dragon Ball does not conform to a consistent tier 2 cosmology by the sites standards, it is what it is. It has nothing to do with the staff hating them (though I do personally suspect some would just love downgrading it out of sheer spite, but that's completely irrelevant).

Even supporters of the series have agreed with this. So please, do not insult people's ability to evaluate the verse just because you disagree with their conclusion.
 
I love dragon ball with all my heart. It is, unironically, my favorite shonen of all time, as well as my favorite manga series. I could give entire essays and thesis about numerous aspects from the series, from the philosophies, to the humanity of certain characters, to the verse mechanics and portrayal of martial arts, to its comedy, to its endurance throughout the ages, and many more.

Why do I preface this? Because while I love the serie to death and back, and hold it dear to my heart; if it turns out it doesn't conform to the standards of the site for a certain tier, then it needs to be downgraded, regardless of how much we love it or not.

The staff, whether we like it or not, are the ultimate authority regarding the sites standards. If after every piece of information given, it is deemed that Dragon Ball does not conform to a consistent tier 2 cosmology by the sites standards, it is what it is. It has nothing to do with the staff hating them (though I do personally suspect some would just love downgrading it out of sheer spite, but that's completely irrelevant).

Even supporters of the series have agreed with this. So please, do not insult people's ability to evaluate the verse just because you disagree with their conclusion.
it doesn’t have enough evidence imo even if the RoSaT isn’t inside of Universe 7 it would still be a 2-C multiverse but the argument is that the RoSaT is outside of the timeline and there’s no evidence of that and it’s been stated to be a subspace so I disagree with this statement that’s not enough evidence for it to be a 2-C multiverse
 
it doesn’t have enough evidence imo even if the RoSaT isn’t inside of Universe 7 it would still be a 2-C multiverse but the argument is that the RoSaT is outside of the timeline and there’s no evidence of that and it’s been stated to be a subspace so I disagree with this statement that’s not enough evidence for it to be a 2-C multiverse
you gave your point, please don't flood a staff thread
 
I can agree that not every statement from the various continuities should apply to other versions of Dragon Ball regarding the cosmology, though there are extremely consistent guidebook statements that apply to all versions of Dragon Ball such as the Universe having spatial temporal barriers. Such as the recent manga having a new statement about a RoSaT, don't think that should retcon some clear facts about Toei or DBS Anime.

But I a strongly disagree with downgrading the Tier 2 cast of DBS Anime for a multitude of reasons whether it be the fact that RoSaT and its space-time continuum + the observable universe would inherently be destroyed by a GoD. And that they should upscale from Infinite Zamasu who eventually did become one with the universe and was merging on a spacio temporal level.

As for other things brought up such as the part about "4-D cosmic structures less than universal being High 3-A feats based on the existence of an uncountable infinite number of shots" we used to have that be on tiering system but removed it due to controversies. But if people want to add something like that back, sounds like it's reserved for a different discussion and I doubt some staff will agree. But destroying one of those And a universe at the same time with a single blast would be at least Low 2-C.
 
Super Shenron grants wishes. The Dragon Ball themselves are incapable of restoring entire universes from erasure. The Dragon Ball themselves are giant crystal balls, and the Namekian Dragon Balls what were chipped off of the original scatter in a very non-transcending space-timey wimey manner.
I don’t see how Super Shenron’s Wish Granting capabilities correlate to the SDBs moving between universes through what appeared to be simple flight.
Oh damn, I forgot about this point entirely. SDBs as well scatters across all universes through simple flight or 3 dimensional movement.
 
I can agree that not every statement from the various continuities should apply to other versions of Dragon Ball regarding the cosmology, though there are extremely consistent guidebook statements that apply to all versions of Dragon Ball such as the Universe having spatial temporal barriers. Such as the recent manga having a new statement about a RoSaT, don't think that should retcon some clear facts about Toei or DBS Anime.
I believe it's worth noting that despite whatever the manga says, the Anime even actually does seem internally consistent with itself and the old statements on that (the RoSaT likely being part of the universe, and absolutely part of the timeline).

Because, the fact that the anime has Vegeta land back in U7 after destroying it alone should be a strong indication that the RoSAT isn't for some reason an outright different timeline as being assumed by the OP here (even taking the manga into account, outside of U7=/=outside of the entire timeline), because we have an actual direct canon reference point in the form of Zeno erasing the Future Timeline, which doesn't drop him into the main timeline like destroying the RoSaT did to Vegeta and leaves him stuck in nothingness, even despite being a parallel branched timeline from it.
 
I believe it's worth noting that despite whatever the manga says, the Anime even actually does seem internally consistent with itself and the old statements on that (the RoSaT likely being part of the universe, and absolutely part of the timeline).

Because, the fact that the anime has Vegeta land back in U7 after destroying it alone should be a strong indication that the RoSAT isn't for some reason an outright different timeline as being assumed by the OP here (even taking the manga into account, outside of U7=/=outside of the entire timeline), because we have an actual direct canon reference point in the form of Zeno erasing the Future Timeline, which doesn't drop him into the main timeline like destroying the RoSaT did to Vegeta and leaves him stuck in nothingness, even despite being a parallel branched timeline from it.
The point of vegeta landing on earth, buu landing on earth is moot for the fact that RoSaT is not in the universe in the first place. One can simply question that why vegeta/buu/trunks not landed on any other planet but on earth? Why they not landed on any other universe but on U7? Why they not landed on after life but in living universe? All this doesn't makes sense until we say that it's just plot demand. This thing doesn't hold much weight after recent manga chapter.
 
The point of vegeta landing on earth, buu landing on earth is moot for the fact that RoSaT is not in the universe in the first place. One can simply question that why vegeta/buu/trunks not landed on any other planet but on earth? Why they not landed on any other universe but on U7? Why they not landed on after life but in living universe? All this doesn't makes sense until we say that it's just plot demand. This thing doesn't hold much weight after recent manga chapter.
Ok, but the point wasn't even that it proves the RoSaT is part of the universe, but still part of the timeline as a whole (as seen in the differences to Zeno destroying an actual different timeline). The manga only implies it isn't part of the universe, that doesn't contradict it being part of the entire timeline. There's no reason to try and handwave canon evidence and contrasts when it does't even contradict the new information in the first place.
 
Ok, but the point wasn't even that it proves the RoSaT is part of the universe, but still part of the timeline as a whole (as seen in the differences to Zeno destroying an actual different timeline). The manga only implies it isn't part of the universe, that doesn't contradict it being part of the entire timeline. There's no reason to try and handwave canon evidence and contrasts when it does't even contradict the new information in the first place.
I don't really see, How zeno relates to anything like proving RoSaT is a part of the timeline? And no, vegeta/buu/gotenks landing on earth wouldn't prove anything for the fact it doesn't prove RoSaT is a part of the earth, forget about earth, not even part of the universe. So this point is entirely moot.
 
I don't really see, How zeno relates to anything like proving RoSaT is a part of the timeline?
Because when Zeno destroys an entirely different timeline, he doesn't just land somewhere in the main timeline like Vegeta did by destroying the RoSaT. There is a clear contrast demonstrated here between actual different timelines and the RoSaT.
 
Because when Zeno destroys an entirely different timeline, he doesn't just land somewhere in the main timeline like Vegeta did by destroying the RoSaT. There is a clear contrast demonstrated here between actual different timelines and the RoSaT.
And no, vegeta/buu/gotenks landing on earth wouldn't prove anything for the fact it doesn't prove RoSaT is a part of the earth, forget about earth, not even part of the universe. So this point is entirely moot.
There is something called established plot, it has been established regarding for RoSaT that destroying it would lead you to earth possibly because of it's connection through kami's room or simply/most likely plot but this point already have so many questions on it already to be used for anything.
 
@Reiner Dude, it's nothing to do with it being part of Earth or the universe, it's the simple fact Vegeta ends up back anywhere in the main timeline at all instead of stuck in limbo. The fact is that when Zeno destroys a mere parallel branched timeline, even that doesn't land him into a different timeline, thus indicating that the RoSaT is still part of the entire timeline (which again, isn't contradicted by the manga) for that to have happened.

And no, destroying the doorway (which happens as Vegeta blows it up from the inside, you literally see his blue energy's explosion nuke the entrance while he's standing away from it, inside the RoSAT) cuts off any connection it has to Earth.
 
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