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UES, his attack and defense are the same
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Dragon Ball AP Ratings Upgrade
- Thread starter Ednaxel2
- Start date
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- Tags
- dragon ball upgrade
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More specifically, Ki in particular has shown as such
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I see how it can be pretty weird, but I always interpreted it as Vegeta eventually escaping so as to not be launched into space. The fact that he took the brunt of the attack for a period of time before getting out is pretty strong evidence for me at least.
Durability to AP stuff is Ki shenanigans so I’m not really gonna revisit it beyond what I said to Omega
The_Yellow_Topaz
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Didn't bro also take the Spirit Bomb head on while weakened?
The_Yellow_Topaz
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Anyway, this has nothing to do with the thread, so CEASE. Vegeta is planet level, that's the current truth. Him being Large Planet level is not a contradiction to anything and is still within planetary range.
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Yep, he still survived that
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agree with this
Nullflowerblush
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初次出場時，悟空的戰鬥力是普通人的兩倍。當變身成大猩猩，力量彈升至十倍。
"When he first appeared, Son Goku's Battle Power was twice that of an ordinary person. When transformed into a Great Ape, that strength increases by ten times," with "that strength" (100) clearly being in reference to Goku's aforementioned Battle Power (10), being twice that of an average human (5).
The Daizenshuu 7 references Battle Power explicitly, and the Super Exciting Guide's Training section dedicating an entire double-page spread to analyzing Battle Powers—data supervised by Akira Toriyama, by the way.
Any idea where said Super Exciting Guide translations originate? I'd appreciate a source like that immensely, please.Nevermind that, Goku was stated to have a greater power in Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume.
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The_Yellow_Topaz
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I apologize, but there is no "THAT strength" in the original sentence.
"力量彈升至十倍" (lìliàng dàn shēng zhì shí bèi)"
- "力量" (lìliàng) means "strength" or "power."
- "彈升" (dàn shēng) means "rises" or "increases."
- "至" (zhì) means "to" or "up to."
- "十倍" (shí bèi) means "ten times."
The fact that other guides only mention Battle Power is not mutually exclusive with this guide's claim that it is also an increase in strength. Both can be true, and are not conflicting.
DM me.
Nullflowerblush
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Reread the message, please.
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,394
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Null, this stunt of "just re-read the message" instead of constructing an actual decent argument to explain where I misinterpreted it does not solve the debate, nor does it allow for it to continue further. If I somehow misinterpreted what you meant, EXPLAIN TO ME, because upon re-read, it's very likely I still won't get it. This "reread the message" stuff you do ALL THE TIME BTW doesn't make you look smarter.
I'm arguing that the terminology IS different, and that we have no confirmation through that sentence that it was referring to BP, after all, why wouldn't they just use the term Battle Power again? No, the translation is,
"When he first appeared, his battle power was already twice that of a regular person. When he turns into a Great Ape, his strength is increased tenfold."
Literally two different sentences.
Serlock_Holmes
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Yellow as always one of the best posters on this site. Also, power levels were supposed to be linear. Case in point Kaioken.
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I don’t think vegeta tanked the full brunt of Gokus kamehameha at any rate, his Galick Gun was = KK3 KHH and only KK4 is enough for him to lose the struggle, if We account for the fact Goku had to expend energy overcoming the galick gun in the first place that’d mean Vegeta only took like 25% of the total energy of the KK4 kamehameha.
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Plus Vegeta was being damaged by Goku's Kaio-ken x 3 strikes. Goku's Kaio-ken x 3 strikes aren't going to be stronger than a Kaio-ken x 4 Kamehameha.
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I'm gonna be completely honest: this is headcanon. It's never noted that a character's blast gets weaker via expended energy after overcoming another blast. The 25% thing is even more headcanon-y.
To avoid confusion, I'm not trying to say Vegeta scales to Goku's Kaioken x4 Kamehameha. But what I am saying is that given that Vegeta withstands that and then later survives a Spirit Bomb while weakened (and given how because of Ki, Durability = AP), I think saying that Vegeta's Galick Gun is superior to his physicals isn't really accurate
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It isnt headcanon as much as it is simple logic, why would a technique not lose energy trying to overcome another of similar nature opposing it?
Well even if we ignore all that Vegetas Galick Gun matching Gokus KK3 KHH means that it is indeed superior by his physicals by at most 30% plus by how many times KHH itself is an amp over basic hth combat, a clear example being Raditz having to brace himself to endure it despite finding Goku and Piccolos combined physical efforts laughable in the same fight.
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If it's not something supported in-verse, why make more assumptions just to arrive at that conclusion?
First off, you're pulling numbers like 30% out of a hat. That stuff's headcanon... again.
And in Vegeta's case, he directly takes a Spirit Bomb while being heavily weakened, like come on. What you claim as proof is really not that substantial.
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isn't 30% the difference between 3 and 4? i guess that is where he is coming from at least
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That's 33.333333%, and he's not talking about the difference between Kaioken x3 and Kaioken x4. He's talking about the alleged difference between physicals and the Kamehameha
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According to a guide. Goku's 8 ton training in the Buu Saga puts more strain than 100x gravity.
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The 33% is the difference between KK2-KK3 and Kamehameha further amps PL/ BP making it superior to physicals to an unknown extent which is shown many times, so the fact Vegeta was physically outclassed by KK 3 and still managed to match a KHH combined with it proves that his Galick Gun is substantially superior to his physical might.
in raw AP
Vegeta > KK2
KK3 > Vegeta
KHH+KK3 > KK3 > Vegeta
Galick Gun = KHH+KK3
There is no way Galick gun scales to Vegetas normal physicals, much less when it is portrayed as his last resort against someone who was stomping him in hand to hand combat.
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Vegeta also withstood said x4 Kaioken Kamehameha (the energy dispersion thing is pure headcanon without definitive proof, sorry to say) and even survived a Spirit Bomb while heavily weakened.
These are the facts. And from these facts, I don't believe saying his Galick Gun is above his physicals is accurate
These are the facts. And from these facts, I don't believe saying his Galick Gun is above his physicals is accurate
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W
Wait. Wouldn't that mean that Vegeta ONLY has planet busting attacks, using a technique that...Well..He physically doesn't scale to?
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Also we see Recoome breath>Gohan Ki attack
Nullflowerblush
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Which only applies to Recoome.
Because Gohan had a BP of 14,000.
What is the current argument exactly? Kaio-ken x3 Goku > Vegeta > Weakened Vegeta ~ Spirit Bomb > Kaio-ken x4 Kamehameha > Kaio-ken x3 Kamehameha > Kaio-ken x3 Goku?
Spinoirr
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Just Vegeta has stamina like a mad man
Like bro survived his ass beating from Kid Buu, like bros stamina is insane
The_Yellow_Topaz
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No.
Stop using scaling chains, they don't belong here.
Vegeta cannot be a whole dimension apart from his Galick Gun because his durability is high enough to withstand the force of attacks of the same caliber. His physicals scale because UES. This isn't about who's superior to who in a chain because it's obvious the SB and KKx4 Kamehameha are still stronger.
The_Yellow_Topaz
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Surviving energy engulfing your entire body takes durability actually. Don't know if you knew that.
Spinoirr
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The current argument is that Vegeta's Galick Gun doesn't actually scale to his normal attacks
Nullflowerblush
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Isn't that common knowledge, though?
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No, nor is it currently treated as such.
Not a fan of the "common knowledge" sentiment. It's reductive and what one person sees as "common knowledge" isn't the case for someone else
Nullflowerblush
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"Common knowledge", as in "Numerous major verse-wide revisions have concluded numerous times over that super-attacks like the Kamehameha scale above their users's normal abilities".
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Also, now that I think about it, where did this discussion about Galick Gun even start? It's kind of irrelevant to the point that if Saiyan Saga Vegeta would be 1/10 his Great Ape self, which scales to Namek Saga Goku.
I think this Galick Gun thing was attempted as a point against such scaling, but that doesn't make sense as that's just a case of AP not being the same as DC - a standard that our wiki consistently follows. That is to say, arguing this point seems to be contradictory to our very standards
I think this Galick Gun thing was attempted as a point against such scaling, but that doesn't make sense as that's just a case of AP not being the same as DC - a standard that our wiki consistently follows. That is to say, arguing this point seems to be contradictory to our very standards
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And nothing of the sort has been actually accepted outside of Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha, Cell's Solar Kamehameha, and other such exceptional cases (I believe the Tri-Beam and Neo Tri-Beam are the only other ones)
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Didn’t this all come from people questioning the notion of Vegeta scaling to 1/10 of his Oozaru form?
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Pretty much, yeah. And looking back, I don't see how it's all that relevant. I think the argument is "well if Vegeta is 5-A, why did he need a Galick Gun to nuke the Earth" which is just AP =/= DC shenanigans - something our standards pretty clearly emphasize
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Special Ki attacks when charged up considerably never directly scaled to physicals, characters often rely on things such as KHH / SBC / LG / GG only after they were shown that their physical attacks couldn’t do much, ie: Goku vs Raditz, Vegeta vs KkK3 Goku, Vegeta va Final Form Freeza , Piccolo vs Cell round 2.
likewise instances where a character just swats away a special ki attack with just raw strength are meant to portray the overwhelming superiority of one character over the other.
I’m not saying that it is impossible to scale physicals to ‘ super attacks’ just that rather than this being the default assumption there needs to be some feats to back up that notion, clear examples Cell taking Piccolos light Grenade without Guarding, Freeza Kicking Vegetas final Galick Gun, SS3 Goku punching and deflecting Fat Boos KHH, etc.
Other examples of 1=1 correspondence with physical AP could be casual ki attacks because they seldom are portrayed as being superior if at all to basic hand to hand combat ie: Vegetas technique, Freezas deathball vs planet vegeta that despite being a special technique he performed it laughing his ass off and sitting on his floating chair.
Just saying that the idea of a special attack being threaded as = to physical stats all of the time is not remotely accurate with how they’re portrayed, it’s not the norm, and the gap between both stats should be acknowledged even if it’s just a 2x 3x times difference.
likewise instances where a character just swats away a special ki attack with just raw strength are meant to portray the overwhelming superiority of one character over the other.
I’m not saying that it is impossible to scale physicals to ‘ super attacks’ just that rather than this being the default assumption there needs to be some feats to back up that notion, clear examples Cell taking Piccolos light Grenade without Guarding, Freeza Kicking Vegetas final Galick Gun, SS3 Goku punching and deflecting Fat Boos KHH, etc.
Other examples of 1=1 correspondence with physical AP could be casual ki attacks because they seldom are portrayed as being superior if at all to basic hand to hand combat ie: Vegetas technique, Freezas deathball vs planet vegeta that despite being a special technique he performed it laughing his ass off and sitting on his floating chair.
Just saying that the idea of a special attack being threaded as = to physical stats all of the time is not remotely accurate with how they’re portrayed, it’s not the norm, and the gap between both stats should be acknowledged even if it’s just a 2x 3x times difference.
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