Dracule Mihawk vs World's Strongest Swordsman

[Ryuga21]

Mihawk vs. Ditto

• Ditto has time to transform
• Mihawk is in-character
• Battle takes place at Green Hill Zone
• They start at 1km

Hawk eyes - 4

Impostor -

Tie -

 

[Imaginym]

Basis that Ditto has a chance?

Because I wouldn't be surprised if Mihawk can skill stomp many characters, Ditto included.

 

[Imaginym]

Bumping for interest.

 

[Mickey1940]

Skill wise Mihawk is better but Ditto does have Metal Powder

sure after Gen 3 it doesn't work when Ditto is transformed but before Gen 3 it still works

not sure if this should be accepted tho

 

[Ryuga21]

Basis that Ditto has a chance?

Because I wouldn't be surprised if Mihawk can skill stomp many characters, Ditto included.

Can't Ditto copy Battle Skill? It copies martial arts quite easily.

 

[That_moron2]

Following

 

[SlendVeny]

Skill wise Mihawk is better but Ditto does have Metal Powder

sure after Gen 3 it doesn't work when Ditto is transformed but before Gen 3 it still works

not sure if this should be accepted tho

I think we treat it like the transformations amp on here.

 

[Imaginym]

I think we treat it like the transformations amp on here.

The what?

 

[Ryuga21]

Bump

 

[Eminiteable]

Skill wise Mihawk is better but Ditto does have Metal Powder

sure after Gen 3 it doesn't work when Ditto is transformed but before Gen 3 it still works

Mihawk's dura neg counters it.

 

[Mickey1940]

Mihawk's dura neg counters it.

Ditto can do the same thing except Mihawk doesn't have metal powder to counter it

 

[Eminiteable]

Ditto can do the same thing except Mihawk doesn't have metal powder to counter it

Metal powder doesn't counter it and unlike Ditto Mihawk has his sword Yoru which tanks it.

 

[AThe1412]

@Imaginym Did say in one of the past Ditto matches that Ditto can't copy the opponent's equipment nor can it use the ones it normally has while transformed. Even with Quick Powder and Metal Powder, Mihawk should be able to deal with it using Haki.

 

[Imaginym]

@Imaginym Did say in one of the past Ditto matches that Ditto can't copy the opponent's equipment nor can it use the ones it normally has while transformed. Even with Quick Powder and Metal Powder, Mihawk should be able to deal with it using Haki.

Haki to deal with a Speed Boost?

But yeah, Ditto doesn't copy foe's items. Presumably because that'd overwrite its powders. If there's precedent for it copying equipment, IDK of it. I think it once copied a Cubone, which wield bones as weapons?

(Also, why are we assuming Haki can't be copied?)

 

[Eminiteable]

(Also, why are we assuming Haki can't be copied?)

Not super knowledgeable on how ditto's transformation works but my only guess as to why it might not be able to copy Haki are these two reasons:

1. Characters with haki have been cloned before which creates a true copy of them, retaining their personality, experiences, skills and when applicable even devil Fruit abilities. These clones didn't retain haki though.
2. When Law swapped the souls of the strawhats Nami who was in the body of Sanji wasn't able to use his haki abilities, while Sanji who was placed in Nami'a body could despite her not having it.

 

[SlendVeny]

But yeah, Ditto doesn't copy foe's items. Presumably because that'd overwrite its powders. If there's precedent for it copying equipment, IDK of it. I think it once copied a Cubone, which wield bones as weapons?

Kadabra
Alakazam
Farfetch'd
Hypno
Cubone
Marowak
Delibird
Rotom transformations
Timburr
Gurdurr
Conkeldurr
Braixen
Delphox
Flabebe
Floette
Klefki
Oranguru
Komala
Grookey
Thwakey
Rillaboom
Cramorant transformations
Sirfetch'd
Mr. Rime
Rellor
Rabsca
Tinkatink
Tinkatuff
Tinkaton
Iron Bundle

 

[SlendVeny]

Not super knowledgeable on how ditto's transformation works but my only guess as to why it might not be able to copy Haki are these two reasons:

1. Characters with haki have been cloned before which creates a true copy of them, retaining their personality, experiences, skills and when applicable even devil Fruit abilities. These clones didn't retain haki though.
2. When Law swapped the souls of the strawhats Nami who was in the body of Sanji wasn't able to use his haki abilities, while Sanji who was placed in Nami'a body could despite her not having it.

Ditto can copy psychic powers, I think Haki would work.

 

[Eminiteable]

Ditto can copy psychic powers, I think Haki would work.

Could you elaborate further because simplying being capable of certian powers isn't why I'm saying Ditto may not be able to copy haki.

 

[Imaginym]

Not super knowledgeable on how ditto's transformation works but my only guess as to why it might not be able to copy Haki are these two reasons:

1. Characters with haki have been cloned before which creates a true copy of them, retaining their personality, experiences, skills and when applicable even devil Fruit abilities. These clones didn't retain haki though.
2. When Law swapped the souls of the strawhats Nami who was in the body of Sanji wasn't able to use his haki abilities, while Sanji who was placed in Nami'a body could despite her not having it.

A Pokemon copied by Transform will copy the stats -I THINK this will include Nature & Characteristics?, but I'm not sure.- of the target.

It'll also copy abilities like Steadfast (Get faster in response to flinching.), Inner Focus (Prevents flinching.), Intimidate (Lessens the foe's ATK.), Guts (Higher ATK when it has a status condition.), Vital Spirit (Prevents falling asleep.), Anger Point (Maxes out ATK if it gets hit by a crit.), Rivalry (25% stronger against same gender, 25% weaker against opposite.), Anticipation (Senses if the foe has a dangerous move.), among many others.

Many of those abilties imply things indicative of strong-willedness (Being unflinching, determined, fierce, etc.), & Haki is defined by will. I'd say it's something Transform can copy.

 

[AThe1412]

Haki to deal with a Speed Boost?

Isn't that what Observation typically allows you to do? React to attacks that are faster than you before they happen? Not a OP supporter, I just read the Haki page.

 

[Imaginym]

Isn't that what Observation typically allows you to do? React to attacks that are faster than you before they happen? Not a OP supporter, I just read the Haki page.

Ah, yeah, that might be it?

 

[Eminiteable]

A Pokemon copied by Transform will copy the stats -I THINK this will include Nature & Characteristics?- but I'm not sure.

From what I can tell from researching online it copies everything about a Pokemon with the exception of the following:

Name	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘
Level	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘
HP (current and maximum)	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘
Status condition	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘
Friendship		✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘
Held item		✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘	✘

So based on that it seems to effect on a similar level to cloning in the One Piece verse which as I mentioned earlier doesn't copy Haki.

It'll also copy abilities like Steadfast (Get faster in response to flinching.), Inner Focus (Prevents flinching.), Intimidate (Lessens the foe's ATK.), Guts (Higher ATK when it has a status condition.), Vital Spirit (Prevents falling asleep.), Anger Point (Maxes out ATK if it gets hit by a crit.), Rivalry (25% stronger against same gender, 25% weaker against opposite.), Anticipation (Senses if the foe has a dangerous move.), among many others.

Many of those abilties imply things indicative of strong-willedness (Being unflinching, determined, fierce, etc.), & Haki is defined by will. I'd say it's something Transform can copy.

It definitely seems like it copies a person's willpower but Haki in general isn't solely tied to willpower. Only Haoshoku Haki has connections to willpower, which allows the user to manipulate and weaponize their own willpower, but, overall it's stated to be the "manifestation of the spirit". And while it may copy a person's willpower that doesn't necessarily mean it copies the user's Haoshoku that manipulates it.

 

[Imaginym]

It definitely seems like it copies a person's willpower but Haki in general isn't solely tied to willpower. Only Haoshoku Haki has connections to willpower, which allows the user to manipulate and weaponize their own willpower, but, overall it's stated to be the "manifestation of the spirit". And while it may copy a person's willpower that doesn't necessarily mean it copies the user's Haoshoku that manipulates it.

If Haki isn't purely or even primarily willpower, then what is it?
& how do we know Haoshoku is distinct from willpower & manipulates the willpower, rather than being a form of willpower that is manipulated?

Also, some Pokemon abilities that arguably have to do with Spirit:

Wandering Spirit (Japanese: さまようたましい Wandering Spirit): Causes ability swapping on contact. Ability of Galarian Yamask & Runerigus, which are Ghost-types, & actual spirits themselves, IIRC.
Steely Spirit (Japanese: はがねのせいしん Steely Spirit) : Doesn't clarify relation to Spirit beyond the name. Signature ability of Perrserker. Powers up Steel-type moves of itself & allies.

Still, manipulating souls isn't unheard of for Pokemon, IIRC, considering Pokedex entries.

 

[Eminiteable]

If Haki isn't purely or even primarily willpower, then what is it?

It's own power system composed of many things, but from what we've seen it's connected to the user's own soul (Nami&Sanji example) rather than biology (Clone example).

The only part of Haki that relates to willpower is when it comes to Haoshoku's ability to manipulate it.

& how do we know Haoshoku is distinct from willpower & manipulates the willpower, rather than being a form of willpower that is manipulated?

Besides the statement? We don't know for sure, but Mihawk isn't listed with hao in the first place so it's kind of a moot point either way in regards to Ditto copying his haki.

 

[Imaginym]

It's own power system composed of many things, but from what we've seen it's connected to the user's own soul (Nami&Sanji example) rather than biology (Clone example).

The only part of Haki that relates to willpower is when it comes to Haoshoku's ability to manipulate it.

IMHO, considering there's Soul Manipulation AND Willpower-related stuff in Pokemon, I wouldn't say it's implausible to copy.

Besides the statement? We don't know for sure, but Mihawk isn't listed with hao in the first place so it's kind of a moot point either way in regards to Ditto copying his haki.

Something close to Observer's Haki is also plausible, given Anticipation's Precognition, even ignoring Pokedex entry feats & move feats for that.

 

[Bobsican]

Ditto can transform into ghosts and ghosts possessing stuff, if that'd matter here.

Also, the powders are useless, they don't have any effect while Ditto is transformed.

 

[Imaginym]

Ditto can transform into ghosts and ghosts possessing stuff, if that'd matter here.

Also, the powders are useless, they don't have any effect while Ditto is transformed.

No post-Transformation Powders mean wouldn't this just be an arguably less skilled Mihawk vs the real Mihawk, at the very least, no?

 

[Bobsican]

And this is why Ditto is kinda bad for matches, on one hand it's difficult to make mismatches with him, but on the other it's virtually always a decisive loss.

 

[Eminiteable]

IMHO, considering there's Soul Manipulation AND Willpower-related stuff in Pokemon, I wouldn't say it's implausible to copy.

Ditto can transform into ghosts and ghosts possessing stuff, if that'd matter here.

If it copies the soul as well then he should copy Mihawk's haki abilities.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Mihawk's dura neg counters it.

Why does he have dura neg again?

 

[Imaginym]

If it copies the soul as well then he should copy Mihawk's haki abilities.

Several Ghost-type Pokemon are spirits: Yamask is a wandering spirit, Phantump is a lost child's soul, Spiritomb is 108 sealed evil souls, Drifloon's filled with souls & expands when it takes another, Sinistea is supposedly a spirit possessing a cup of tea, Dreepy was reborn as a Ghost Pokemon & wanders the areas where it was alive in prehistoric seas.

Among probably other examples of Ghost-type Pokemon being made of souls &/or soul manipulators. Would that be sufficient?

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Copying Sirfetch'd and Marowak alone is enough proof he could copy something like Yoru.

But like...even outside of the haki argument Mihawk should lol stomp him just with his experience and skill alone. Like...he may be able to use any if Mihawk's sword techniques, but without the man's skill to back it up he should just get rolled-

 

[Eminiteable]

Several Ghost-type Pokemon are spirits: Yamask is a wandering spirit, Phantump is a lost child's soul, Spiritomb is 108 sealed evil souls, Drifloon's filled with soul & expands when it takes another, Sinistea is supposedly a spirit possessing a cup of tea, Dreepy was reborn as a Ghost Pokemon & wanders the areas where it was alive in prehistoric seas.

Among probably other examples of Ghost-type Pokemon being made of souls &/or soul manipulators. Would that be sufficient?

It would.

Copying Sirfetch'd and Marowak alone is enough proof he could copy something like Yoru.

But like...even outside of the haki argument Mihawk should lol stomp him just with his experience and skill alone. Like...he may be able to use any if Mihawk's sword techniques, but without the man's skill to back it up he should just get rolled-

I can see the logic but it feels weird saying he will transform with Yoru when the move supposedly doesn't copy held items for pokémon.

Besides skill it says Transform also doesn't copy a Pokémon's HP stat, which I'm guessing would count for something like Endurance/Stamina?

 

[AThe1412]

It would.

I can see the logic but it feels weird saying he will transform with Yoru when the move supposedly doesn't copy held items for pokémon.

Besides skill it says Transform also doesn't copy a Pokémon's HP stat, which I'm guessing would count for something like Endurance/Stamina?

Yeah, Ditto doesn't copy Stamina. IIRC, he lost to Copy Robot because of it

 

[Imaginym]

Besides skill it says Transform also doesn't copy a Pokémon's HP stat, which I'm guessing would count for something like Endurance/Stamina?

Yeah, that might be another issue.

Copying Sirfetch'd and Marowak alone is enough proof he could copy something like Yoru.

For what its worth, doesn't Marowak have a signature item in the Thick Club? (& Sirfetch'd's pre-evo, Farfetch'd, has the Stick, which should actually be called the Leek.)

But like...even outside of the haki argument Mihawk should lol stomp him just with his experience and skill alone. Like...he may be able to use any if Mihawk's sword techniques, but without the man's skill to back it up he should just get rolled-

I could believe that.

Also, in gameplay, Transformed Pokemon only get 5 PP for the moves they have while Transformed (Unless they Transform again.). IDK if that's just game mechanics &/or an abstraction of the Stamina limitations or something.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

I can see the logic but it feels weird saying he will transform with Yoru when the move supposedly doesn't copy held items for pokémon.

It seems to just copy whatever item it needs to mimic the attacks of the opposing Pokemon.

Marowak's bone, for example, is the main way the species fight, but the bone itself is just a regular bone it picks up.

For what its worth, doesn't Marowak have a signature item in the Thick Club? (& Sirfetch'd's pre-evo, Farfetch'd, has the Stick, which should actually be called the Leek.)

It does yeah, but those items are separate then what the Pokemon naturally holds.

Also, in gameplay, Transformed Pokemon only get 5 PP for the moves they have while Transformed (Unless they Transform again.). IDK if that's just game mechanics &/or an abstraction of the Stamina limitations or something.

Could be a stamina limitation, honestly. Unsure how we would treat something like that.

 

[Imaginym]

It seems to just copy whatever item it needs to mimic the attacks of the opposing Pokemon.

Marowak's bone, for example, is the main way the species fight, but the bone itself is just a regular bone it picks up.

Apologies, but actually....

Silver	It collects bones from an unknown place. A Marowak graveyard exists somewhere in the world, rumors say.
Crystal	Somewhere in the world is a cemetery just for Marowak. It gets its bones from those graves.

Emerald	A Marowak is the evolved form of a Cubone that has grown tough by overcoming the grief of losing its mother. Its tempered and hardened spirit is not easily broken.

Diamond/Pearl/Platinum	From its birth, this savage Pokémon constantly holds bones. It is skilled in using them as weapons.

Brilliant Diamond/Shining Pearl	The bones it uses have been in its possession since it was born. It has a ferocious nature.

It does yeah, but those items are separate then what the Pokemon naturally holds.

In Marowak & Farfetch'd's case, it's hard not to imagine the Thick Club & Stick (Which is just a Leek, just mistranslated, so just like what Farfetch'd holds.) Items as what they're actually holding, IMHO.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Apologies, but actually....

That..doesnt contradict what I said. It's a bone they pick up. They just get if from some unknown place.

In Marowak & Farfetch'd's case, it's hard not to imagine the Thick Club & Stick (Which is just a Leek, just mistranslated, so just like what Farfetch'd holds.) Items as what they're actually holding, IMHO.

I mean…regardless, it's capable of using moves that would naturally involve a weapon. Bone Club, for example.

It wouldn't functionally be able to use that without…well, a bone.

 

[Imaginym]

That..doesnt contradict what I said. It's a bone they pick up. They just get if from some unknown place.

It's a bone from a Marowak graveyard, &/or 1 it's had since birth.
I suppose technically the bones are kind of indistinct, but they do have a specific kind of origin, & for each individual, it's had 1 since birth, implying it's a specific/distinct bone.

I mean…regardless, it's capable of using moves that would naturally involve a weapon. Bone Club, for example.

It wouldn't functionally be able to use that without…well, a bone.

Yeah.
(Although, in the anime, IIRC, we see Pokemon like Lucario do so by making energy weapons.)

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

It's a bone from a Marowak graveyard, &/or 1 it's had since birth.
I suppose technically the bones are kind of indistinct, but they do have a specific kind of origin, & for each individual, it's had 1 since birth, implying it's a specific/distinct bone.

It's a bone they gather from an unknown place, which is rumored to be a graveyard, yes.

My point was really that, since it's an object they hold, and not say...a part of their biology, it should fall under the same vein as a basic weapon. Like a sword.

Yeah.
(Although, in the anime, IIRC, we see Pokemon like Lucario do so by making energy weapons.)

Lucario does make a club out of energy ye. But we know Ditto himself doesn't really do that, since...at least in games, he mimic's the Pokemon model completely, including the objects they are holding (aside from items).

Regardless, I think it's a fair assumption, in this battle, to assume Ditto would be able to use Mihawk's sword techniques as part of his power mimicry.