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Downstreamers reupgrade to 1-A (Solid this time, no possiblys or at leasts)

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Aeyu

VS Battles
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I don't really know where to begin with this, but they should be re-upgraded to Tier 1-A. The reason for this is that the structure of the Manifoldverse is based off of Tegmark's 4 Multiverse types, particularly Type IV; I've since come to the understanding that a Type IV Tegmark Multiverse in fact contains all possible mathematical permutations, and views all possible mathematical objects as real, including abstract "Platonic," ones that are aspatial and atemporal. For this reason, due to transcending this hierarchy, they would also transcend all logical and modal concepts which can be described through axiomatic math, and thus basically require a 1-A rating. Again, I was the one who had them downgraded, but at this point, after learning more about the subject matter, I think it is imperative they be reupgraded.


From the text in the above link: "As a way out of this conundrum, I have suggested that complete mathematical symmetry holds: that all mathematical structures exist physically as well. Every mathematical structure corresponds to a parallel universe. The elements of this multiverse do not reside in the same space but exist outside of space and time. Most of them are probably devoid of observers. This hypothesis can be viewed as a form of radical Platonism, asserting that the mathematical structures in Plato's realm of ideas or the "mindscape" of mathematician Rudy Rucker of San Jose State University exist in a physical sense. It is akin to what cosmologist John D. Barrow of the University of Cambridge refers to as "" in the sky," what the late Harvard University philosopher Robert Nozick called the principle of fecundity and what the late Princeton philosopher David K. Lewis called modal realism. Level IV brings closure to the hierarchy of multiverses, because any self-consistent fundamental physical theory can be phrased as some kind of mathematical structure."


Also, I would argue that the fundamental logic I used to provide reasoning for them not being strictly 1-A before is flawed on a basic level, as transcending space and time and their necessity, especially when infinitely-infinite dimensions are acccounted for mathematically, and indeed within a Type III multiverse, let alone a type IV, is illogical.


A useful article about Type IV multiverses:
 
I... think this is fine? I dunno enough about 1-A for a certain opinion, but I don't have much of a problem.
 
"At least 1-A" isn't a thing. It's either outright or not and this looks straight up 1-A.
 
Sera Loveheart said:
"At least 1-A" isn't a thing. It's either outright or not and this looks straight up 1-A.
She's not arguing for At least 1-A though.

She means it won't be "At least High 1-B".
 
@Aeyu

That's not supposed to say that. It was stated a while ago (during the Hajun debate) that "At least 1-A" isn't a tier. I know you weren't pushing for it, just clarifying that since....people still make At least 1-As.
 
@Sera

Why isn't it? It's At least 1-A for a reason - because it's so vastly above the Ultimate Gods and indeed every other 1-A god (who are already so obscenely high into 1-A that it's unimaginable) that it doesn't make sense to have her in the same level, not to mention she honestly could be High 1-A due to producing offspring with Yog-Sothoth and being made by a High 1-A being similar in complexity to the entity that created Yog-Sothtoth. So, At least 1-A does make sense - it's a safe lower end. I think that that is being very nitpicky for no reason.
 
I definitely agree with this. Undimensioned, aspatial, and atemporal multiverse types above all dimensional complexity exist, and the first post seems to me like it fits the criteria.
 
Actually, now that it's being talked about, wasn't it mentioned that once the Downstreamers reached the apex of their abilities, that they had come to the conclusion that they created themselves to begin with due to their permutations and affecting said permutations? They aren't stated to have anything above them, and seem to be at the cusp of all potential logical possibilities (as logic devolves into math at its most basic), so wouldn't they even potentially qualify for High 1-A? The only limit they seem to have is like that of Featherine Augustus Aurora: They are at the cusp of the ultimate manifold beyond all realities, and stand above said beyond-dimensional metaverse structure.
 
Downstreamers so OP pls nerf

I'm still in the middle of reading of Manifold: Space so I still don't know much about them.

But yeah this seems like the DS should be upgraded to solid 1-A
 
Type IV Multiverses account for ALL mathematical possibilities. So everything short of illogical "omnipotence," in theory should be covered, since logic is encompassed by mathematics at its deepest levels. This means all possible multiverses, with all possible laws, under all possible thought, under all possible concepts, as all of those under the premise of a mathematical multiverse are simply permutations of information and mathematics. The Downstreamers are stated to *transcend* this plateau.
 
@Aeyu

Being so far above other 1-As means nothing. You're still 1-A. There's already three High 1-As in the Mythos, to even suggest there can be a fourth with this "At least" business is a bit overstepping the boundary between 1-A and High 1-A, just like HE being At least 1-A, possibly High 1-A. Yog-Sothoth however, is more than just "infinitely and vastly beyond all Outer Gods". They are but infinitesimal aspects of him and he practically would be Azathoth if Azathoth didn't exist. That is well suitable for High 1-A (actually it's our best example).

This is also stated on the Tier System page.
 
@Sera

There is no rule in fiction that states that there is a limit to how many "High 1-A" characters that can exist, though. That being said, she is infinitely above the Ultimate Gods (the strongest Outer Gods) who are already vast levels of infinity greater than beings who are levels of infinity greater compared to the Great Old Ones (1-A beings) than the Great Old Ones are compared to humanity. She also was noted to be something of an equal to Yog-Sothoth, and had several of his children, coming from Yog-Sothoth's "uncle," another High 1-A.

@Ant

I will leave a message on his wall.

(Edit: I have done so.)
 
@Aeyu

There is a rule that's embedded in our common sense. If they were, let's say, 50 High 1-As in a verse, that's saying they are 50 beings that would practically be Tier 0 were it not for a minor limitation or existence of a higher being. However at 50 that becomes extremely unlikely as they have a big limitation which is "having too many beings comparable to it in power".

Once again, you can be infinite^infinite above 1-As that are already infinitely above other 1-As and still be 1-A. For example. Let's look at Another Blood (Demonbane):

>Countless fodder from the middle of an endless chain of worlds/stories that completely surpasses infinite hierarchy beneath him, and in this hierarchy there are beings who use powers beyond duality, space, time and dimensions (overall).

>An infinite hierarchy above this fodder.

>Beings that are infinitely above all hierarchies. There are no stories, no dimensions, no existence or non-existence. Chaos is the initial and final state for all things created in existence.

>Gears of the Clockwork Phantom, the absolute concentration of chaos.

>The Clockwork Phantom as a whole is infinitely above an endless pile of gears.

>Another Blood.

Another Blood is still 1-A.
 
But that's a fallacy of common sense. And you've failed to address Shub's relationship to the Unnamed Darkness and to Yog-Sothoth, which is of paramount importance here. By that logic, why even have two? Why even have one? Putting an arbitrary limit on it like that is honestly silly. She's At least 1-A for a very similar reason to why Umr 'at Tawil is 1-A, possibly higher. It's more than just levels of infinity. That only backs up this case.

The Ultimate Gods surpass all forms of hierarchy. There is no change for them. No concepts. No reality. The first Gate is immeasurably beyond infinite forms and layers of Outerversal space. And the Ultimate Gate is further beyond the First than the First is beyond our own world. Then the Void is insurmountably beyond that. The Ultimate Gods are the greatest of those who surround Azathoth, and Shub completely transcends them. She's more than likely at least comparable to Yog, due to breeding with him, which solidifies her rating. Arbitrarily deciding against a rating, even though it accurately describes the situation of the character's potential, is, well, arbitrary.
 
Such a relationship does not really matter. The Outer Gods being beyond even change, and all that blah blah is just perspective. 1-A is literally an infinite chain. It is larger than even High 1-B in terms being the widest tier on this wiki.

I don't stand how people ignore this.

For example, Hajun was originally High 1-A and was downgraded because "too many weaknesses". VenomElite, one of the only few active Masadaverse experts along with ALRF was active, debunked most of those weaknesses as the Tumor is his only true weakness. Hajun is set up to be always higher than any Hadou/Gudou God regardless of their Taikyoku because Hajun's will always be higher. Taiji being an in-universe powerscaling tool, that means you can stack an infinite amount of Hadou Gods (who always are above Gudou Gods) and Hajun would stomp them all. Yet he was still downgraded and when At Least 1-A was brought up, it literally got shutdown because "At Least 1-A doesn't exist." What the hell? If it doesn't exist why are there several examples proving that it does exist? Blatant bias has been proven.

I digress though, as that's not the point of this thread.
 
I agree with Sera, but the thread is being derailed.
 
Then it should be applied to Hajun as well, but indeed that is beside the point.
 
Sera Loveheart said:
You know this makes me wonder why some High 1-A's are rated as such when normal 1-A's from other verses are already infinite^infinite above bsseline. High 1-A is basically our way of saying Nigh Omnipotent, only for real.
 
We really ought to put this High 1-A stuff into its own thread.

Anyway, this upgrade has my support.
 
@Sera

It seems so.

And @Kingpin

The potential High 1-A thing about the Downstreamers? I see no reason why it cannot all be addressed at once.
 
No, I was referring to the earlier argument about High 1-A in general, particularly for Shub-Niggurath and Hajun.

High 1-A Downstreamers would be awesome but I don't fully understand the justifications you gave for it.
 
I suppose that 1-A might be reasonable, but High 1-A seems extremely exaggerated.

Still, let's wait for Azathoth.
 
I outlined it above. Essentially, they aren't limited by anything: mathematics, dimensions, concepts, permutations, anything. The only thing that might be above them is some hyper-abstract collection of ideas, and even that is vague. I outlined how complex and rigidly into 1-A a Type IV multiverse is, but the even bigger thing is that the Downstreamers fully transcend this and stand at the top of all hierarchies, kind of like Featherine Augustus Aurora.
 
Featherine is at the top of a beyond infinite amount of narratives, several of which likely contain things like the downstreamers within them, and yet being mere fiction to each higher order. Transcending all types of math and dimensions is likely enough to warrant a 1-A tier, but High 1-A should be applied extremely carefully.
 
Well, it's not just all math but all logic and all concepts, as well. This covers even abstract variables of math, and even non-existent ones, by its very definition. A Type IV multiverse would functionally include every possibility under every type of modal logic possible, and then the DS transcend this. I am aware of the controversial nature of High 1-A, but I emphasize I only support such a tier for scholastic reasons.
 
Can you please post the specific quotes as they refer to the Downstreamers? Because while the structure of the Manifoldverse takes inspiration from the Type IV Multiverse, I don't recall the DS actually transcending acausal and completely dimensionless mathematical concepts, in the actual books. It's been a while, so they might have for all I know, but I'd need proof.

We also already have beings who can create and transcend infinite-dimensional reality and exist as as atemporal, aspatial, acausal metaphor and just rate them as really high-end High 1-B, so that alone usually is not enough to qualify (though it depends on context and the verse itself).
 
Type IV would recognize all mathematical and logical permutations, however. So by its nature, it would include beyond-dimensional spaces (as seen in the PDF) as all different laws of physics, even ones that would seem theoretical or impossible under our current frame of reference, are all accounted for, existing as physical manifestations of abstract concepts. As far as concrete quotes from the book itself, that might take a little while. I do know that the Type of the multiverse (Indeed, the Tegmark type) was changed to that of a Type IV.
 
@Azathoth

After buying a digital copy of the book (I had a hard copy) and scanning it for the mentioned text, I can confirm that all text in this thread is legit, and can provide scans if needed. That being said, as said multiverse is a Type IV multiverse, I think that a 1-A rating (solid, mind you) is best in this scenario, due to the documentation I provided above. A Type III multiverse already contains many physical constants and actually possesses in it infinite spatio-temporal dimensions by means of a functional Hilbert Space. A Type IV multiverse has this, as well as every permutation and possibility in mathematics and modal logic that could arise from that, as well as non-existent (at least to us) abstractions of mathematics and undimensioned space. So I think that 1-A is logical enough and also a safe end, as perhaps High 1-A may not be quite safe enough, but that depends on the definition of 0 and its relation to Omnipotence, which has been defined to exist within modal logic to some degree, as well as paraconsistent and abstract maths, which this also presumably would encompass.
 
I am not sure if it consisting of the Theory of Everything automatically means that it consists of non-dual mathematical possibilities unbound by binary computability, because that isn't necessarily covered in the standard descriptions of the Theory of Everything or the Type IV Multiverse, but said Theory of Everything holds more than enough proof to show for dimensionless properties to be far surpassed, and the fact that the characters just simply transcending everything should be enough proof for a solid 1-A rating.
 
Well, if it covers all possible and impossible modes of logic and mathematics in a Platonic way, I think you could make an argument that they basically transcend duality to some degree.
 
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