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So, I'm just wondering what tier Downstreamers would get if there was a page for Downstreamers.
[Cornelius sat down and visibly tried to be patient. "It's a sketch of the foundations of a theory of quantum gravity, which is a unification, awaited for a century, of general relativity and quantum theory, the two great pillars of physics." "I thought we had that. String theory." "String theory is part of it. But string theory is mathematically dense — after thirty years the theorists have only extracted a handful of predictions from it — and it's limited besides; it doesn't incorporate curved space in a natural way. And—"] Info gained from Children whose brain was inputted with Downstreamers' knowledge. Implied to be Theory of Everything, in which string theory is a part of it. Means one universe, the universe they live in, at least follows String theory. Evidence of it being at least 11-dimensional.
[Anna's face worked. "They are considering constraints on the ultimate manifold." Maura suspected that she was going to struggle with the rest of this conversation. "The manifold of what?" "Universes. It is of course a truism that all logically possible universes must exist. The universe, this universe, is described - umm, that's the wrong word - by a formal system. Mathematics. A system of mathematics." Maura frowned. "You mean a Theory of Everything?" Anna waved a hand, as if that were utterly trivial, and her beautiful wings rustled. "But there are many formal systems. Some of them are less rich, some more. But each formal system is logically consistent internally, describes a possible universe, which therefore exists."] Explains that in infinite ensemble universes, all universes that follows formal systems, must already exist. I presume this would automatically include universes with infinite dimensions (hilbert space), universes that follow string theory, and numerous others. Since all mathematical structures are basically formal systems. That's including hilbert space which is part of quantum mechanics. If my interpretation is wrong, feel free to correct me.
This multiverse seems to follow Tegmark's cosmology. From wiki : [Abstract mathematics is so general that any Theory Of Everything (TOE) which is definable in purely formal terms (independent of vague human terminology) is also a mathematical structure. For instance, a TOE involving a set of different types of entities (denoted by words, say) and relations between them (denoted by additional words) is nothing but what mathematicians call a set-theoretical model, and one can generally find a formal system that it is a model of.] Basically, it contains every cosmology conceived by science. Its a 'Mathematical Universe Hypothesis'. Specifically called 'Level IV Multiverse : Ultimate ensemble'. Which could include Tegmark's Level III Multiverse (since it can also be described as mathematical structure, thus, a formal system) too, which is Many-Worlds Interpretation. In which, Level III Multiverse also have hilbert space.
Ehm, So yes, 'infinite dimensional' isn't out of reach for Downstreamers I think. Also Considering they're described to create these universes in the first place. Then redesign whole multiverse again because its not good enough for them.
Despite already containing all possible universes, Downstreamers aren't satisfied with their First Multiverse. So they did Vacuum Collapse (as described above) to make new multiverse. This new multiverse contains new configurations not present in First Multiverse (even if said First Multiverse already contained infinite universes with all possible universes). Downstreamers possibly created 'impossible' universes too. Its described as 'creating infinite possibilities for life and mind'.
["But structure and change are not restricted to a single universe. They span the manifold of evolving universes. And so, therefore, does life. Do you see?" "No." "When this universe was spawned from the previous generation, it went through a series of phases. That is, the vacuum did."] Explanation how Vacuum Collapse Downstreamers would do will affect whole manifold, whole multiverse.
["After the Big Bang the vacuum itself descended through a series of energy states. This is the most primitive unfolding of all, the source of the time river, the source of life and mind." ... "You must see what this means. The evolution of the vacuum is a flow of information. But this is a flow that spans the manifold itself, and is therefore fundamental." Anna's eyes searched Maura's. "Life spans the manifold. The vacuum metastability makes you what you are. This is the reason for what we are doing. And this is what you must tell them."] Explanation how Vacuum affects whole Multiverse. And how it is the source of all. Time, life, mind. All is manifestation of vacuum states.
Need to remind you that Vacuum Collapse restructure whole multiverse, thus would destroy, and restructure 'all possible universes' explained above. Which would include universes with infinite dimensions and others.
And Downstreamers survived such disastrous event where all dimensions are destroyed, and rebuilt, possibly with different physical constants no less. Essentially, complete restructuring of physics, all over the multiverse. All is 'destroyed'. No space, no time, no energy, nothing. Outside dimensions/time/space/physics enough to be Tier 1-A?
Also, that event dictates what physics would govern 'next' universe. How many dimensions it'd have, that sort of thing.
And in their First Multiverse (infinite universes, and already contained all possible configurations/states) there are all kind of weird physics. Like a universe where matter and light is reversed, and a universe with no Electromagnetism. And Downstreamers could already suppress any kind of foreign Laws of Physics in the Multiverse in a given area before their Vacuum Collapse experiment.
[There is a theory that our universe grew from a seed, a tiny piece of very high density material that then inflated into a great volume of spacetime, with planets and stars and galaxies. This was the Big Bang. But perhaps that seed was not unique. Perhaps there is a sea of primordial high density matter- energy - a sea where temperatures and densities and pressures exceed anything in our universe, where physics operates according to different laws - and within this sea universes inflate, one after another, like bubble in foam. These bubble universes would have no connection to each other. Their inhabitants would see only their own bubble, not the foam itself. That is my legend. The Ham's legend is that the Old Ones, created it all.] A quote from the book. Old Ones refer to Downstreamers. Sea of cosmic inflation. Where a universe is just a bubble in a foam.
Kind of like PR!Beyonder-like in scale. Except in PR!Beyonder's case, a drop of water = entire Marvel multiverse.
Needless to say Downstreamers can control/initiate cosmic inflation to make universes in some kind of primordial sea. If they are beyond laws of physics or even metaphysical in nature, then they should have no problem being in 'Outerverse' like this.
[Whatever the origin of the Manifold, within it there could be an infinitie number of universes. And in an infinitie ensemble, everything which is logically possible must - somewhere, somehow - come to pass.] Manifold. Refer to a set of infinite universes. So First Multiverse = First Manifold, Second Multiverse = Second Manifold, etc.
Each Manifold contains (possibly) infinite subsets (only one such subset was described) with each contains infinite universes. Wether this means 1 Manifold = infinite multiverses.. I'm not sure.
["There are an infinite number of possible universes in the manifold," Anna said. "Of these only a subset - nevertheless infinite itself - are capable of supporting self-aware substructures.] Explanation on a subset of Multiverse being infinite itself.
["Malenfant, perhaps there are a cluster of alternate universes with identical histories up to the moment of some key event in the evolution of humanity — and differing after that only in the details of that event, and its consequences." Nemoto waved her hands vaguely, as if trying to indicate three-dimensional space around her. "Imagine the possible universes arrayed around us in a kind of probability space, Malenfant. Do you see that universes differing only in the details of the evolution of mankind must somehow be close to ours in that graph?"] [, different levels of the manifold." "The manifold?" Emma asked. "The ensemble of possible universes," Cornelius said.] more about possible universes.
[I imagine the possible universes arrayed around me in phase space.] ["A great primordial collision shaped Earth and Moon," Cornelius murmured "Everything about Earth and Moon ― their axial tilt, composition, atmosphere, length of day, even Earth's orbit around the sun ― was determined by the impact. But it might have turned out differently. Small, chance changes in the geometry of the collision would have made a large difference in the outcome. Lots of possible realities, budding off from that key, apocalyptic moment..." Malenfant said, "So what are we looking at? ... "Phase space." Cornelius seemed coldly excited. "The phase space of a system is the set of all conceivable states of that system. We're glimpsing phase space." Malenfant said, "Is this what we were being protected from? This ― disorderliness?"] Existence of 'phase space'. At first glance its rather similar to Xeelee's Configuration Space. Wether it also Hilbert-space-like in structure like CS too I don't know. But it could be likely. An infinite dimensional 'structure' that contains all possible states of a system. In this case, a universe, specifically, Earth's history.
[If a system was comprehensible, then an entity must exist that could comprehend it. Therefore an entity must exist that could comprehend the entire universe, arbitrarily well or rather She must exist, as Babo put it. 'The God of the Manifold,' Manekato said dryly. The catch was that there was a manifold of possible universes, of which this was only one. So She may not exist in this universe.
Anyhow, it - She - was to be the ultimate goal of the Daemons' quest. 'Of course,' Babo said, 'She may actually be an expression of the manifold itself - or perhaps the manifold itself, the greater structure of reality strands, is itself self- referential, in some sense conscious.] God of Manifold. Described to be outside the universe, but also described to be the very embodiment of manifold itself. If Downstreamers transcend any kind of laws of physics, then it won't be farfetched if they were like Gan of The Dark Tower for example.
Transcend the Manifoldverse but embody said Manifold Omniverse at the same time.
[ - or perhaps the manifold itself, the greater structure of reality strands, is itself self- referential, in some sense conscious. Or perhaps the manifold is itself merely one thread in a greater tapestry -' 'A manifold of manifolds.' 'And perhaps there is a further recursion of structure, no end to the hierarchies of life and mind, which -' Mane held up her hands.] Speculation how a Manifold = infinite multiverse(s) is merely a thread in a greater tapestry. Or there may not even be an end to said 'greater tapestry'. The description sure have some similarities to DC's Overmonitor. And if 'all possible universes' already include infinite universes with infinite dimensions, universes with string theory etc. Downstreamers' scale is... quite large.
Combined with possibility of infinite number of infinite dimensional universes in each manifold, and considering a manifold = a tiny thread in a neverending tapestry, and considering Downstreamers are like very embodiment of manifold but transcend the manifold omniverse itself...
So, thoughts? What Tier they'd stand at?
[Cornelius sat down and visibly tried to be patient. "It's a sketch of the foundations of a theory of quantum gravity, which is a unification, awaited for a century, of general relativity and quantum theory, the two great pillars of physics." "I thought we had that. String theory." "String theory is part of it. But string theory is mathematically dense — after thirty years the theorists have only extracted a handful of predictions from it — and it's limited besides; it doesn't incorporate curved space in a natural way. And—"] Info gained from Children whose brain was inputted with Downstreamers' knowledge. Implied to be Theory of Everything, in which string theory is a part of it. Means one universe, the universe they live in, at least follows String theory. Evidence of it being at least 11-dimensional.
[Anna's face worked. "They are considering constraints on the ultimate manifold." Maura suspected that she was going to struggle with the rest of this conversation. "The manifold of what?" "Universes. It is of course a truism that all logically possible universes must exist. The universe, this universe, is described - umm, that's the wrong word - by a formal system. Mathematics. A system of mathematics." Maura frowned. "You mean a Theory of Everything?" Anna waved a hand, as if that were utterly trivial, and her beautiful wings rustled. "But there are many formal systems. Some of them are less rich, some more. But each formal system is logically consistent internally, describes a possible universe, which therefore exists."] Explains that in infinite ensemble universes, all universes that follows formal systems, must already exist. I presume this would automatically include universes with infinite dimensions (hilbert space), universes that follow string theory, and numerous others. Since all mathematical structures are basically formal systems. That's including hilbert space which is part of quantum mechanics. If my interpretation is wrong, feel free to correct me.
This multiverse seems to follow Tegmark's cosmology. From wiki : [Abstract mathematics is so general that any Theory Of Everything (TOE) which is definable in purely formal terms (independent of vague human terminology) is also a mathematical structure. For instance, a TOE involving a set of different types of entities (denoted by words, say) and relations between them (denoted by additional words) is nothing but what mathematicians call a set-theoretical model, and one can generally find a formal system that it is a model of.] Basically, it contains every cosmology conceived by science. Its a 'Mathematical Universe Hypothesis'. Specifically called 'Level IV Multiverse : Ultimate ensemble'. Which could include Tegmark's Level III Multiverse (since it can also be described as mathematical structure, thus, a formal system) too, which is Many-Worlds Interpretation. In which, Level III Multiverse also have hilbert space.
Ehm, So yes, 'infinite dimensional' isn't out of reach for Downstreamers I think. Also Considering they're described to create these universes in the first place. Then redesign whole multiverse again because its not good enough for them.
Despite already containing all possible universes, Downstreamers aren't satisfied with their First Multiverse. So they did Vacuum Collapse (as described above) to make new multiverse. This new multiverse contains new configurations not present in First Multiverse (even if said First Multiverse already contained infinite universes with all possible universes). Downstreamers possibly created 'impossible' universes too. Its described as 'creating infinite possibilities for life and mind'.
["But structure and change are not restricted to a single universe. They span the manifold of evolving universes. And so, therefore, does life. Do you see?" "No." "When this universe was spawned from the previous generation, it went through a series of phases. That is, the vacuum did."] Explanation how Vacuum Collapse Downstreamers would do will affect whole manifold, whole multiverse.
["After the Big Bang the vacuum itself descended through a series of energy states. This is the most primitive unfolding of all, the source of the time river, the source of life and mind." ... "You must see what this means. The evolution of the vacuum is a flow of information. But this is a flow that spans the manifold itself, and is therefore fundamental." Anna's eyes searched Maura's. "Life spans the manifold. The vacuum metastability makes you what you are. This is the reason for what we are doing. And this is what you must tell them."] Explanation how Vacuum affects whole Multiverse. And how it is the source of all. Time, life, mind. All is manifestation of vacuum states.
Need to remind you that Vacuum Collapse restructure whole multiverse, thus would destroy, and restructure 'all possible universes' explained above. Which would include universes with infinite dimensions and others.
And Downstreamers survived such disastrous event where all dimensions are destroyed, and rebuilt, possibly with different physical constants no less. Essentially, complete restructuring of physics, all over the multiverse. All is 'destroyed'. No space, no time, no energy, nothing. Outside dimensions/time/space/physics enough to be Tier 1-A?
Also, that event dictates what physics would govern 'next' universe. How many dimensions it'd have, that sort of thing.
And in their First Multiverse (infinite universes, and already contained all possible configurations/states) there are all kind of weird physics. Like a universe where matter and light is reversed, and a universe with no Electromagnetism. And Downstreamers could already suppress any kind of foreign Laws of Physics in the Multiverse in a given area before their Vacuum Collapse experiment.
[There is a theory that our universe grew from a seed, a tiny piece of very high density material that then inflated into a great volume of spacetime, with planets and stars and galaxies. This was the Big Bang. But perhaps that seed was not unique. Perhaps there is a sea of primordial high density matter- energy - a sea where temperatures and densities and pressures exceed anything in our universe, where physics operates according to different laws - and within this sea universes inflate, one after another, like bubble in foam. These bubble universes would have no connection to each other. Their inhabitants would see only their own bubble, not the foam itself. That is my legend. The Ham's legend is that the Old Ones, created it all.] A quote from the book. Old Ones refer to Downstreamers. Sea of cosmic inflation. Where a universe is just a bubble in a foam.
Kind of like PR!Beyonder-like in scale. Except in PR!Beyonder's case, a drop of water = entire Marvel multiverse.
Needless to say Downstreamers can control/initiate cosmic inflation to make universes in some kind of primordial sea. If they are beyond laws of physics or even metaphysical in nature, then they should have no problem being in 'Outerverse' like this.
[Whatever the origin of the Manifold, within it there could be an infinitie number of universes. And in an infinitie ensemble, everything which is logically possible must - somewhere, somehow - come to pass.] Manifold. Refer to a set of infinite universes. So First Multiverse = First Manifold, Second Multiverse = Second Manifold, etc.
Each Manifold contains (possibly) infinite subsets (only one such subset was described) with each contains infinite universes. Wether this means 1 Manifold = infinite multiverses.. I'm not sure.
["There are an infinite number of possible universes in the manifold," Anna said. "Of these only a subset - nevertheless infinite itself - are capable of supporting self-aware substructures.] Explanation on a subset of Multiverse being infinite itself.
["Malenfant, perhaps there are a cluster of alternate universes with identical histories up to the moment of some key event in the evolution of humanity — and differing after that only in the details of that event, and its consequences." Nemoto waved her hands vaguely, as if trying to indicate three-dimensional space around her. "Imagine the possible universes arrayed around us in a kind of probability space, Malenfant. Do you see that universes differing only in the details of the evolution of mankind must somehow be close to ours in that graph?"] [, different levels of the manifold." "The manifold?" Emma asked. "The ensemble of possible universes," Cornelius said.] more about possible universes.
[I imagine the possible universes arrayed around me in phase space.] ["A great primordial collision shaped Earth and Moon," Cornelius murmured "Everything about Earth and Moon ― their axial tilt, composition, atmosphere, length of day, even Earth's orbit around the sun ― was determined by the impact. But it might have turned out differently. Small, chance changes in the geometry of the collision would have made a large difference in the outcome. Lots of possible realities, budding off from that key, apocalyptic moment..." Malenfant said, "So what are we looking at? ... "Phase space." Cornelius seemed coldly excited. "The phase space of a system is the set of all conceivable states of that system. We're glimpsing phase space." Malenfant said, "Is this what we were being protected from? This ― disorderliness?"] Existence of 'phase space'. At first glance its rather similar to Xeelee's Configuration Space. Wether it also Hilbert-space-like in structure like CS too I don't know. But it could be likely. An infinite dimensional 'structure' that contains all possible states of a system. In this case, a universe, specifically, Earth's history.
[If a system was comprehensible, then an entity must exist that could comprehend it. Therefore an entity must exist that could comprehend the entire universe, arbitrarily well or rather She must exist, as Babo put it. 'The God of the Manifold,' Manekato said dryly. The catch was that there was a manifold of possible universes, of which this was only one. So She may not exist in this universe.
Anyhow, it - She - was to be the ultimate goal of the Daemons' quest. 'Of course,' Babo said, 'She may actually be an expression of the manifold itself - or perhaps the manifold itself, the greater structure of reality strands, is itself self- referential, in some sense conscious.] God of Manifold. Described to be outside the universe, but also described to be the very embodiment of manifold itself. If Downstreamers transcend any kind of laws of physics, then it won't be farfetched if they were like Gan of The Dark Tower for example.
Transcend the Manifoldverse but embody said Manifold Omniverse at the same time.
[ - or perhaps the manifold itself, the greater structure of reality strands, is itself self- referential, in some sense conscious. Or perhaps the manifold is itself merely one thread in a greater tapestry -' 'A manifold of manifolds.' 'And perhaps there is a further recursion of structure, no end to the hierarchies of life and mind, which -' Mane held up her hands.] Speculation how a Manifold = infinite multiverse(s) is merely a thread in a greater tapestry. Or there may not even be an end to said 'greater tapestry'. The description sure have some similarities to DC's Overmonitor. And if 'all possible universes' already include infinite universes with infinite dimensions, universes with string theory etc. Downstreamers' scale is... quite large.
Combined with possibility of infinite number of infinite dimensional universes in each manifold, and considering a manifold = a tiny thread in a neverending tapestry, and considering Downstreamers are like very embodiment of manifold but transcend the manifold omniverse itself...
So, thoughts? What Tier they'd stand at?
