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No, but I agree.
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Downstreamers reupgrade to 1-A (Solid this time, no possiblys or at leasts)
- Thread starter Aeyu
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- the downstreamers
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No, but I agree.
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- #83
@Sera
It even goes in depth on the Omnipotence page why the fundamentals of mathematics are important to understanding said omnipotence; Kevyn himself has appeared in this thread.
The point is, it's equated to a Type IV Multiverse. Type IV multiverses contain aspatial and atemporal realms by their mere existence. Type IV is heavily supported, and the Downstreamers transcend a threshold which lets them shape all forms of time and space, as well as existence itself. When "all of mathematics," is applied to that, it would seem that 1-A is more than logical. High 1-A was being discussed as a possibility only.
It even goes in depth on the Omnipotence page why the fundamentals of mathematics are important to understanding said omnipotence; Kevyn himself has appeared in this thread.
The point is, it's equated to a Type IV Multiverse. Type IV multiverses contain aspatial and atemporal realms by their mere existence. Type IV is heavily supported, and the Downstreamers transcend a threshold which lets them shape all forms of time and space, as well as existence itself. When "all of mathematics," is applied to that, it would seem that 1-A is more than logical. High 1-A was being discussed as a possibility only.
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- #85
@Ant
I was mentioning that it was discussed as a possibility. I already mentioned above that I was no longer supporting it. I do not appreciate the hostility I am receiving and have received when being perfectly reasonable discussing complex issues.
I was mentioning that it was discussed as a possibility. I already mentioned above that I was no longer supporting it. I do not appreciate the hostility I am receiving and have received when being perfectly reasonable discussing complex issues.
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But they are not High 1-A. You can't have a race of High 1-A. The act that they are so multiple proves that they aren't. High 1-A is selected for few beings who are so close to Omnipotence it is virtually indistinguishable. It is not "Super strong 1-A".
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@Aeyu
"I am well versed in VBW's system, having argued about its fundamentals with Ant and DarkLK themselves, facilitating, logically, a change in the definition of 1-A."
So have I, Ven, and Kevyn Souza. Doesn't mean we can't be wrong. Doesn't mean Ant or DarkLK can't be wrong. None of us are cosmologists.
For the record, I hope I'm not coming off as aggressive or belittling towards you. You are very well-versed and knowledgeable. Kepekley and I have acknowledged this before.
"I am well versed in VBW's system, having argued about its fundamentals with Ant and DarkLK themselves, facilitating, logically, a change in the definition of 1-A."
So have I, Ven, and Kevyn Souza. Doesn't mean we can't be wrong. Doesn't mean Ant or DarkLK can't be wrong. None of us are cosmologists.
For the record, I hope I'm not coming off as aggressive or belittling towards you. You are very well-versed and knowledgeable. Kepekley and I have acknowledged this before.
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- #90
@Matt
I have already ceased discussing said topic. I would like to defend 1-A as a possibility instead, as that has been agreed to be more reasonable by Sera, yourself, Ant and Hadou.
And @Ant
I may be argumentative, but I will at least defend my case in saying nothing I am attempting to accomplish or have has ever come from trying to undermine the system, cause dissent/discord, or otherwise be incredibly unreasonable/"wankish".
@Sera
I would like to apologize if it seems like I may be unnecessarily assuming that's the case. I just would like to be seen, if possible, as a positive contributor to this community, and not a nuisance.
I have already ceased discussing said topic. I would like to defend 1-A as a possibility instead, as that has been agreed to be more reasonable by Sera, yourself, Ant and Hadou.
And @Ant
I may be argumentative, but I will at least defend my case in saying nothing I am attempting to accomplish or have has ever come from trying to undermine the system, cause dissent/discord, or otherwise be incredibly unreasonable/"wankish".
@Sera
I would like to apologize if it seems like I may be unnecessarily assuming that's the case. I just would like to be seen, if possible, as a positive contributor to this community, and not a nuisance.
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1-A is definitely acceptable. Not only does it cover qualities of an undimensioned multiverse, said characters transcend said multiverse.
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That's fine Aeyu, I can be argumentive too (ask Matt :3). It's just that the thread has been dragged on into repetitive arguments. In fact, perhaps it would be better if we could discuss this more in like a chat (like perhaps Discord or Hangouts) and not on a Forum thread. As Ant said, it is time consuming and there's other revisions to be reviewed and such. Again, if I was being aggressive I do apologize.
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Aeyu is really smart. All smart people are argumentative (*looks at Sera*) Yes, it would be better if we all discussed these things privately instead of clogging this thread. 1-A is definitely acceptable, I see so direct complications with it. I'll explain why High 1-A isn't a possibility for this and how "levels of 1-A" work at another occasion.
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- #94
@Sera
It's fine and whatnot. I just try to be objective and stuff and I don't want this to turn into personal anything or where people resent me, etc. I always (being aware there's bias no matter what x-x) try to minimize bias and support what seems logical to me. I didn't think DS needed 1-A before, but now it's been bugging me (a thing about my OCD) because of its technical inaccuracy (from what I can see)
And yeah, I suppose we can and whatnot. You're not on there much, though ;-;
To be more serious:
Then perhaps we should discuss what is reasonable and what is not, apply changes if needed, and then proceed with locking this. I have, in my own opinion, given sufficient evidence to support a solid 1-A rating based on the fundamentals of dimensions being covered by all possible mathematical worlds, something supported by the text, along with the Old Ones being able to control infinite space and time and transcending it (My previous note, which I wrote on the DS page, after I had it downgraded, is fundamentally flawed)
It's fine and whatnot. I just try to be objective and stuff and I don't want this to turn into personal anything or where people resent me, etc. I always (being aware there's bias no matter what x-x) try to minimize bias and support what seems logical to me. I didn't think DS needed 1-A before, but now it's been bugging me (a thing about my OCD) because of its technical inaccuracy (from what I can see)
And yeah, I suppose we can and whatnot. You're not on there much, though ;-;
To be more serious:
Then perhaps we should discuss what is reasonable and what is not, apply changes if needed, and then proceed with locking this. I have, in my own opinion, given sufficient evidence to support a solid 1-A rating based on the fundamentals of dimensions being covered by all possible mathematical worlds, something supported by the text, along with the Old Ones being able to control infinite space and time and transcending it (My previous note, which I wrote on the DS page, after I had it downgraded, is fundamentally flawed)
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After skimming, I agree with High 1-A being absurd. 1-A sounds acceptable, and High 1-B is definitely an at least.
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What exactly does my name have any influence on here?Sera said:
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Try and get Darks opinion. He designed the system didn't you say?
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....when did I ever mention high 1-A? So what did he say?
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Based on what's actually in the books, I can see "At least High 1-B", which I believe we had before.
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If you mean that we should only go by what is actually in the books, yes.
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- #107
@Azathoth
The rating before was At least High 1-B, likely 1-A. Would this rating be more satisfactory? It would address the book's vagueness as well as addressing the likely potentiality that said multiverse in question is a Type IV, which would be elaborated on.
The rating before was At least High 1-B, likely 1-A. Would this rating be more satisfactory? It would address the book's vagueness as well as addressing the likely potentiality that said multiverse in question is a Type IV, which would be elaborated on.
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- #109
@Azathoth, Ant
So I've learned that the Downstreamers appear in more than just Manifold: Time, and that they appear in all three books, as a matter of fact - Manifold:Space and Manifold:Origin. I would appreciate if a final verdict were not reached until I can compile enough information that may possibly substantiate the previous claims, which I actually have found a lot of:
Things I already found, from Manifold:Origin:
"Infinity is significant, you see," Nemoto said, too rapidly. "There is, umm, a qualitative difference between a mere large number, however large, and infinity. In the infinite
manifold, in that infinite ensemble, all logically possible universes must exist. And therefore all logically possible destinies must unfold. Everything that is possible will happen, somewhere out there. They created a grand stage, you see, Emma: a stage for endless possibilities of life and mind."
^ Direct proof of a type IV Multiverse
Emma said, "But I still don't get it. Why would these super-being Old Ones care so much about humanity?"
Nemoto frowned. "You haven't understood anything, Emma. They were us. They were our descendants, our future. Homo sapiens sapiens, Emma. And their universe spanning story is our own lost future history. We built the manifold. We — our children — are the Old Ones."
Emma was stunned. Somehow it was harder to take, to accept that these universe making meddlers might have been — not godlike, unimaginable aliens — but the descendants of humans like herself. What hubris, she thought.
Further
The Astrologers, he told Manekato, believed that the universe — any given universe — was a fundamentally comprehensible system. If a system was comprehensible, then an entity must exist that could comprehend it. Therefore an entity must exist that could comprehend the entire universe, arbitrarily well or rather She must exist, as Babo put it.
"The God of the Manifold," Manekato said dryly.
The catch was that there was a manifold of possible universes, of which this was only one. So She may not exist in this universe.
Anyhow, it — She — was to be the ultimate goal of the Daemons" quest.
"Of course," Babo said, "She may actually be an expression of the manifold itself — or perhaps the manifold itself, the greater structure of reality strands, is itself self-referential, in some sense conscious. Or perhaps the manifold is itself merely one thread in a greater tapestry—"
"A manifold of manifolds."
"And perhaps there is a further recursion of structure, no end to the hierarchies of life and mind, which—"
More:
You know, I think I always knew we couldn't manage to live together. But I think I always dreamed we would get to die together.
But it's been quite a ride. I wouldn't have missed it for the world, Malenfant. For all the worlds.
Of course there is another possibility. Maybe I should go with the Daemons, off into the manifold. If this really is a
manifold of infinite universes, anything is possible. No, strike that — anything that can happen will happen, someplace.
And so there must be one reality where you're waiting for me. There must be. A whole universe, just for us. Kind of romantic, don't you think?…
I'm still blown away by what I've learned of the Old Ones.
The Old Ones created infinite possibility — infinite opportunities for life, for mind. What higher mission could there be? And what really overwhelms me is that they may have been us. Or at least humans from some variant of our future history. Us: we did this. Think of that.
You'd have loved it, Malenfant. But of course, maybe you already know about it all.
To redesign an infinite ensemble of universes: what terrible responsibility, what arrogance… Maybe they really were us. It sounds just the kind of thing your average Homo sap would do for a dare.
An H. sap like Reid Malenfant.
Is it all your fault? Malenfant, what did you do, out there in the forest of realities?
Time to go. Goodbye, Malenfant, goodbye.
According to these statements, it would seem the Old Ones transcend all of possibility itself.
So I've learned that the Downstreamers appear in more than just Manifold: Time, and that they appear in all three books, as a matter of fact - Manifold:Space and Manifold:Origin. I would appreciate if a final verdict were not reached until I can compile enough information that may possibly substantiate the previous claims, which I actually have found a lot of:
Things I already found, from Manifold:Origin:
"Infinity is significant, you see," Nemoto said, too rapidly. "There is, umm, a qualitative difference between a mere large number, however large, and infinity. In the infinite
manifold, in that infinite ensemble, all logically possible universes must exist. And therefore all logically possible destinies must unfold. Everything that is possible will happen, somewhere out there. They created a grand stage, you see, Emma: a stage for endless possibilities of life and mind."
^ Direct proof of a type IV Multiverse
Emma said, "But I still don't get it. Why would these super-being Old Ones care so much about humanity?"
Nemoto frowned. "You haven't understood anything, Emma. They were us. They were our descendants, our future. Homo sapiens sapiens, Emma. And their universe spanning story is our own lost future history. We built the manifold. We — our children — are the Old Ones."
Emma was stunned. Somehow it was harder to take, to accept that these universe making meddlers might have been — not godlike, unimaginable aliens — but the descendants of humans like herself. What hubris, she thought.
Further
The Astrologers, he told Manekato, believed that the universe — any given universe — was a fundamentally comprehensible system. If a system was comprehensible, then an entity must exist that could comprehend it. Therefore an entity must exist that could comprehend the entire universe, arbitrarily well or rather She must exist, as Babo put it.
"The God of the Manifold," Manekato said dryly.
The catch was that there was a manifold of possible universes, of which this was only one. So She may not exist in this universe.
Anyhow, it — She — was to be the ultimate goal of the Daemons" quest.
"Of course," Babo said, "She may actually be an expression of the manifold itself — or perhaps the manifold itself, the greater structure of reality strands, is itself self-referential, in some sense conscious. Or perhaps the manifold is itself merely one thread in a greater tapestry—"
"A manifold of manifolds."
"And perhaps there is a further recursion of structure, no end to the hierarchies of life and mind, which—"
More:
You know, I think I always knew we couldn't manage to live together. But I think I always dreamed we would get to die together.
But it's been quite a ride. I wouldn't have missed it for the world, Malenfant. For all the worlds.
Of course there is another possibility. Maybe I should go with the Daemons, off into the manifold. If this really is a
manifold of infinite universes, anything is possible. No, strike that — anything that can happen will happen, someplace.
And so there must be one reality where you're waiting for me. There must be. A whole universe, just for us. Kind of romantic, don't you think?…
I'm still blown away by what I've learned of the Old Ones.
The Old Ones created infinite possibility — infinite opportunities for life, for mind. What higher mission could there be? And what really overwhelms me is that they may have been us. Or at least humans from some variant of our future history. Us: we did this. Think of that.
You'd have loved it, Malenfant. But of course, maybe you already know about it all.
To redesign an infinite ensemble of universes: what terrible responsibility, what arrogance… Maybe they really were us. It sounds just the kind of thing your average Homo sap would do for a dare.
An H. sap like Reid Malenfant.
Is it all your fault? Malenfant, what did you do, out there in the forest of realities?
Time to go. Goodbye, Malenfant, goodbye.
According to these statements, it would seem the Old Ones transcend all of possibility itself.
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- #111
That is true, but I do believe the this when compared to other statements above would strongly suggest a Type IV Multiverse, as it is specifically called an "Infinite Ensemble," and compared to a "Theory of Everything," even paraphrasing part of the definition given for the MUH founded by Max Tegmark. Regardless, I will continue to acquire quotes and information.
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"Of course," Babo said, "She may actually be an expression of the manifold itself — or perhaps the manifold itself, the greater structure of reality strands, is itself SELF-REFERENTIAL, in some sense conscious. Or perhaps the manifold is itself merely one thread in a greater tapestry—"
"A manifold of manifolds."
These quotes also strongly reference a Type IV Multiverse, especially the mentioning of a self-referential reality.
"A manifold of manifolds."
These quotes also strongly reference a Type IV Multiverse, especially the mentioning of a self-referential reality.
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- #115
This whole building, she realized slowly, was a store of records piled up high from the lowest room to the highest. Physically, some of the records were stored in twinkling cubes that held bits of the quantum foam, minuscule wormholes frozen into patterns of meaning; and some were scraped onto parchment and animal skin.
"Some of these pieces are very ancient indeed," Babo said. "Dating back half a million years or more. And the Air Wall, you know, is a controlled storm. It is like a hurricane, but
trapped in one place by subtle forces. It has raged here, impotent, for fifty thousand years — so that for all that time the Market has been in the eye of the storm — an eye that reveals the sky beyond the clouds, a sky opened for the study of the Astrologers…"
She stopped and glared at him. "Oh, Babo, I don't want to know about Air Walls or records! I never thought I would see you again — I didn't know you had become an Astrologer."
He sighed, ruminatively picking his nose. "I am no Astrologer. But the Astrologers sent for me. When I was younger I did spend some time here, working informally, before I reached the home of my wives. Many boys do, Mane. You matriarchs run the world, but there is much you do not know, even about those who sire your children!"
In defense of the Astrologers in question, throughout the book they are categorized as being scientist types to this alien civilization, merely regarding said science as religious. Regardless, their interpretation could likely be categorized as valid, since they are reliable sources throughout most of the book of scientific phenomena. They are not as primitive as they might seem at first glance:
Manekato knew she must work with this woman, who was a refugee as she was, to study the rogue Moon and its fabricators; that had been the directive of the
Astrologers. But Manekato felt that she had been the target of Without-Name's bitterness and discourtesy from the moment they had been thrown together…
Hadou also left this part out:
The Astrologers, he told Manekato, believed that the universe — any given universe — was a fundamentally comprehensible system. If a system was comprehensible, then an entity must exist that could comprehend it. Therefore an entity must exist that could comprehend the entire universe, arbitrarily well or rather She must exist, as Babo put it.
"The God of the Manifold," Manekato said dryly.
The only thing that exists as speculation is their intepretation of this "entity," which transcends the manifold as a female.
Again, I can try to provide more context, if needed.
"Some of these pieces are very ancient indeed," Babo said. "Dating back half a million years or more. And the Air Wall, you know, is a controlled storm. It is like a hurricane, but
trapped in one place by subtle forces. It has raged here, impotent, for fifty thousand years — so that for all that time the Market has been in the eye of the storm — an eye that reveals the sky beyond the clouds, a sky opened for the study of the Astrologers…"
She stopped and glared at him. "Oh, Babo, I don't want to know about Air Walls or records! I never thought I would see you again — I didn't know you had become an Astrologer."
He sighed, ruminatively picking his nose. "I am no Astrologer. But the Astrologers sent for me. When I was younger I did spend some time here, working informally, before I reached the home of my wives. Many boys do, Mane. You matriarchs run the world, but there is much you do not know, even about those who sire your children!"
In defense of the Astrologers in question, throughout the book they are categorized as being scientist types to this alien civilization, merely regarding said science as religious. Regardless, their interpretation could likely be categorized as valid, since they are reliable sources throughout most of the book of scientific phenomena. They are not as primitive as they might seem at first glance:
Manekato knew she must work with this woman, who was a refugee as she was, to study the rogue Moon and its fabricators; that had been the directive of the
Astrologers. But Manekato felt that she had been the target of Without-Name's bitterness and discourtesy from the moment they had been thrown together…
Hadou also left this part out:
The Astrologers, he told Manekato, believed that the universe — any given universe — was a fundamentally comprehensible system. If a system was comprehensible, then an entity must exist that could comprehend it. Therefore an entity must exist that could comprehend the entire universe, arbitrarily well or rather She must exist, as Babo put it.
"The God of the Manifold," Manekato said dryly.
The only thing that exists as speculation is their intepretation of this "entity," which transcends the manifold as a female.
Again, I can try to provide more context, if needed.
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I agree with 1-A but not high 1-A
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I don't think so. Feels fairly clear cut to me. If a type 4 multiverse automatically includes 1-A universes, then this makes the Downstreamers 1-A. It's as simple as that. The question is whether or not the Manifoldverse is actually Type 4 or not.
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Azathoth should get the chance to give input here. We shouldn't rush mindlessly into upgrades.
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