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Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence
- Thread starter Phoenks
- Start date
- Status
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Page 17 give it up for page 17!
Ya stonewally bastards!
Ya stonewally bastards!
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That those children have more potential than most of humanity? Idk. You guess.
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This is such a flawed premise btw, the level of human attainability and development is different than the level at which a curriculum can be created. You are essentially claiming that it isn't possible for humans to create a curriculum that is impossible and above human limits.
I will set a goal to bench press 1500 kg, I will train everyday by increasing my bench press by 1 kg a day for 1500 days until I reach my goal. Does that mean that bench pressing 1500 kg is not above human limits because I was able to devise a curriculum to reach that goal?
The idea that because humans devised the WR curriculum that it can't be above the limit of human development is absurd. Also I'll remind you that the highest example of peak human (William James Sidis) matches the level 5 WR curriculum which is the human limit. So again surpassing that certainly qualifies, but i've said all this before and you called it "gifted, possibly genius". Since we are just waiting on staff I won't go on but I couldn't just let you throw nonsense like that out there and just get away with it.
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Why do you keep changing the goal post? First you said he surpassed the development humanity as a whole.
When I disagreed and said he only surpassed the capacity of gifted students, you actually agreed with that, effectively nuking what you previously claimed.
NOW, you have lowered the bar even further by saying that you were referring to average humans the entire time???
So your argument was that he should be E.G because his academic knowledge scales above people who scale above average intelligence?
Great one.
When I disagreed and said he only surpassed the capacity of gifted students, you actually agreed with that, effectively nuking what you previously claimed.
NOW, you have lowered the bar even further by saying that you were referring to average humans the entire time???
So your argument was that he should be E.G because his academic knowledge scales above people who scale above average intelligence?
Great one.
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( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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I guess you missed the part where I said even if we go by your intrepetation it still doesn't make the feat less impressive. Basically playing on your part.
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- Thread starter
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Why and how would humans create a curriculum that they know is impossible for humans? Especially in terms of academics, where you have to have know about subjects to teach them to that extent. Moreover, where is your context this is what they did?
The context only suggests that the curriculum at that point was too difficult for the students to handle, thus it was deemed their limit.
Ocram's razor applies and any head canon you make up to try and justify your E.G. agenda are dismissed.
False equivalence because you don't know what the end goal of the beta curriculum was in regards to the students. You are making an assumption without evidence that this is even an accurate comparison.
Not to mention, trying to compare academic learning to a weight lifting goal is blatantly disingenuous.
Bro you aren't even hiding the head canon anymore.
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How you came to this conclusion amazes me. Potential and intelligence are different, and they are in a facility that pushes them to their utmost limits, which by real world standards, is probably enough to consider them exceptional geniuses by the time they leave
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I thought we were finished arguing this but if your best argument for why the beta curriculum isn't above the limit of human development is "it's my headcanon" then I will respond.
The beta curriculum was designed to stretch human potential to the breaking point, it is specifically mentioned to be completely unfeasible to complete and could never be reached. The beta curriculum would destroy the students. This isn't just "too difficult" but beyond the capabilities of normal humans.
No it isn't a false equivalence. The point of the analogy was to point out your ridiculous premise that humans can't create a curriculum of learning that is above the limit which humans can learn. If this were true than gaining the kind of knowledge that Ayanokouji has would be possible by normal people IRL, and that clearly isn't the case. The curriculum contains a level of knowledge which is well beyond normal human limits as it takes geniuses in their fields and the beta curriculum has Ayanokouji surpass EACH OF THEM. You seem to be under the impression that being above a genius level in knowledge in a single subject is the same as having that level of knowledge in EVERY academic subject. This is one of the key distinctions between EG and Genius rating. Genius says it's the level of IRL geniuses "usually in one area of varying depth" vs EG where it says " Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields". That is the point.
Honestly it is funny that you seem to think the WR curriculum is just my head canon. Keep coping ig.
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You are inserting so many of your own ideas that aren't present in the scan that it is practically just head canon.
The scan literally says it is infeasible in reference to CHILDREN, the people that these curriculums were designed for.
My goodness man. You are extrapolating so much.
It is a false equivalence because the difference between some arbitrary lifting goal and an academic one is ridiculously vast.
Academic goals in a curriculum require strict guidelines that would literally necessitate you to be knowledgeable enough to create. Otherwise you'd just be creating nonsense.
Like how could you make a curriculum on making a time machine without knowing how to make a time machine yourself? How could you make a curriculum on solving mathematical equations and concepts that are beyond human knowledge without even knowing that stuff? That makes zero sense and should not be the default assumption for this case in any capacity.
It's a stupid comparison.
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If staff isn’t coming, I am not sure piling on extra arguments is the way to go. In fact It makes it even harder for staff to do anything.
At this point, I hate to say it but the thread has been stalled out by back and forth arguments (not implying bad faith). Especially given that this is a discussion which makes it so we GO BACKWARDS (we were literally at the lack of fictionalized EG tier intelligence depictions, now we’re back at knowledge).
Everyone should think about how to proceed either towards reaching a consensus or a way to resolve this rather than arguing. In fact the CRT for fixing his profile is on hold for this.
At this point, I hate to say it but the thread has been stalled out by back and forth arguments (not implying bad faith). Especially given that this is a discussion which makes it so we GO BACKWARDS (we were literally at the lack of fictionalized EG tier intelligence depictions, now we’re back at knowledge).
Everyone should think about how to proceed either towards reaching a consensus or a way to resolve this rather than arguing. In fact the CRT for fixing his profile is on hold for this.
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Children who remain in the curriculum for 18 years. Also funny how you didn't address anything of substance from my response regarding the breadth of knowledge the beta curriculum contains and just made another analogy which actually supports my point. Ayanokouji vastly surpasses the real world upper limits of knowledge by having an amount of knowledge which is completely unattainable. Compared to actual geniuses who are the instructors (which we have shown many times) Ayanokouji reaches a level of knowledge which surpasses each of them combined as a child.
Most of my response here was quoting the scan I provided so I assume you just didn't read it.
Like I said above I agree with this and would like to just get staff in here, but if he is going to make ridiculous arguments like this, which have no basis, and ignore all of the previous posts which disprove it I wasn't going to just ignore that.
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The important point Phoenks is making is this. Normally “vastly surpasses human knowledge” isn’t just “has professorship in 12 domains” it’s “knows so much more physics than humans that they create a time machine or create a matter shifting device”. their point isn’t invalid.
Rikimarox2
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Haven't read all of the 17 pages in their entirety because screw that, but;
I'm all in for possibly/likely E.G.
Also, people been talking about stonewalling, but istg I remember seeing posts about that even 5-6 pages prior. It's clear people won't stop talking about this, so I think just not talking about stonewalling is the better choice here since at this point, I won't be surprised if quite a portion of this thread were just talking about the stonewall/things not contributing to the thread at all.
I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding, but this doesn't read as "the limit of the children", but moreso the limit of all of humanity, considering the phrasing.
I'm all in for possibly/likely E.G.
Also, people been talking about stonewalling, but istg I remember seeing posts about that even 5-6 pages prior. It's clear people won't stop talking about this, so I think just not talking about stonewalling is the better choice here since at this point, I won't be surprised if quite a portion of this thread were just talking about the stonewall/things not contributing to the thread at all.
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Yes I'm aware how OP was trying to change the goalpost of the argument with this. The argument was how Ayanokouji exceeds the upper human limits. He does so by surpassing genius instructors in their chosen fields, which has been explained more than once already to be above professor level, and it's the fact that he has such knowledge across all of his academics which places him above normal human limits as possessing such knowledge isn't possible for normal humans. There is also him directly stating he has more knowledge than a person can learn in their lifetime which supports this.
The argument wasn't that Ayanokouji possesses more knowledge in physics for example than exists in IRL, but that he possesses more knowledge than possible for a human IRL. Which is what is specified for the EG definition.
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He is beyond human in two things: Physical Ability and Memory. Breadth of Knowledge and learning ability are a product of his memory.
Does he have any feats of surpassing supercomputers? No. Not in the true sense.
Inventing scifi tech? No
Precognition? No
He does meet the definition of “highly complex strategies under distress” but not much differently than how a few Genius characters already do. He’s unquestionably several notches beneath the Genius Baku in this category.
I can’t see how he can have a straight EG rating. Like even if you’re a supporter and insist on EG, how would you communicate that he’s an extremely low end EG? (By the wiki’s standards of what constitutes an EG).
Does he have any feats of surpassing supercomputers? No. Not in the true sense.
Inventing scifi tech? No
Precognition? No
He does meet the definition of “highly complex strategies under distress” but not much differently than how a few Genius characters already do. He’s unquestionably several notches beneath the Genius Baku in this category.
I can’t see how he can have a straight EG rating. Like even if you’re a supporter and insist on EG, how would you communicate that he’s an extremely low end EG? (By the wiki’s standards of what constitutes an EG).
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It has been proven beyond ANY doubt in this thread that his learning ability is unrelated to his memory. His knowledge is only tangentially related to memory since he can retain his knowledge via his memory but it doesn't assist him in actually learning it. Before you try to refute this point go find one of the 2-3 times Reggor proved this already in the thread (he posted is large bold text the last time so you can't miss it) since the LN directly disproves the idea that his learning ability and knowledge are products of his memory.
That being said, if you agree his knowledge is beyond human level then I assume you agree that he meets that criteria of an EG rating.
Vast knowledge across multiple fields - Yes
Above human limits - yes
complex strategy - yes
surpassing supercomputers - you disagree but I argue yes
advanced tech - no
future prediction - yes (he has a scan which verbatim says he can "calculate" future events by considering all possibilities)
So at worst he only meets 4/6 of the EG points and I have been arguing 5/6.
But as is the case I don't want to get back into this since arguments have already been made for all of this, so let's just go back to waiting for staff.
ReaperAndBlues
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I might be going crazy, but did 7 pages come out of nowhere?
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A bunch of yapping with no substance, maybe this should be have been made as a staff thread as no sane mod would read over 17 pages to decide whether these feats are Extraordinary Genius or not, right now it only has Qawsedf234 accepting the changes.
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The last time he was posting on the thread, Qawsedf234 said he agreed that a baseline EG could be argued, instead of agreeing with the OP to accept the changes. The thread clearly continued since then but I wanted to make sure it was noted his original post where he agreed with OP he edited to say it was before counterarguments. Then he said this later. There were arguments made to support his future predictions following this as well.
ReaperAndBlues
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I second this. I'll admit I got a little off track too, but my God this is insane. The proposal for this was about 2 pages ago too by @MCH2. I think we've been going around in circles without a proper conclusion or other mod activity besides Qawsed and UchihaSlayer.
Do with what I say as you will, but we need some kind of middle ground to meet on or we might get another 4 pages of this.
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Both sides agreed to resolve it by having mods decide based on a revised intelligence profile that was ran by supporters. Since that section is a good representation of his abilities. I even just updated it to add stuff that some supporters brought up. I will accept what the mods decide without complaint.
Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence
Bro, we already 11 Pages. We really should stop discussing, to not clog the thread. true tbh, we should make a separate combat iq thread. When will the mods come?
Other than that, I have no idea how to proceed. Until the mater of his rating is resolved I can’t proceed with fixing his profile.
Unfortunately the EG side isn’t willing to consider anything other than EG. G side would accept “At least Genius” at most.
The EG side is basically just the 5-6 who started EG and never yielded, switching from one point to the next. Meanwhile everyone else ended up switching to G
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RoggerReggor
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Where is it even written that it's the limit of "Gifted" subjects? The statement itself says that level 5 to 6 is the "limit of the human development", nothing like "it's the limit of the development of a gifted individual".
Nah, at this point, you are just crafting the statement to suit your own premise.
Secondly, the premises of the volume itself states sometimes that just the words "gifted"/"genius" may never describe the achievements of the White Room Gen 4.
Statements for the earlier generation (gifted-genius):
An outright statement for Gen 4 and later generations (this statement is related with Kiyotaka as well as it was spoken during research on him):
And again, Kiyotaka is described as a person who cannot be rivaled, and his achievements are "unattainable".
This just sets the base for E.G. arguments, again, to be mentioned.
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@Qawsedf234 @UchihaSlayer96 any interest in this proposal or suggestions how we should proceed? any meaningful discussion has been completely stalled out at this point.
@XxZetsuxX @RoggerReggor would you mind contacting me on Discord? I would like your input on the revisions I want to make before posting them (after this thread concludes). Unfortunately I don’t have the number of posts for private messaging here currently.
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@Qawsedf234 @UchihaSlayer96 @First_Witch
So after private discussions with @TheHuntsman1001 and @RoggerReggor (main EG debaters), and after discussing it with @Phoenks and @HelloThere1089, we’ve all agreed on compromising with “At least Genius, Possibly Extraordinary Genius”.
The rational is as follows:
1) Towards the end of the debate there was a convergence, as this turned into a debate on whether he’s a high end Genius or a low end Extraordinary Genius and on the technicalities of the definition.
2) This thread showed that there is a clear need to rework parts of his profile(to both sides), primarily his intelligence section. Not just due to mischaracterizations, but also because there are things the profile is either missing or making unclear. This creates a roadblock for making a 2nd thread.
3) Once the totality of presented evidence in this thread is considered, I truly believe this is a valid rating for Ayanokouji.
I hope we can resolve the matter of his rating so we may be able to proceed towards making the needed changes to his profile. That work is currently ongoing.
So after private discussions with @TheHuntsman1001 and @RoggerReggor (main EG debaters), and after discussing it with @Phoenks and @HelloThere1089, we’ve all agreed on compromising with “At least Genius, Possibly Extraordinary Genius”.
The rational is as follows:
1) Towards the end of the debate there was a convergence, as this turned into a debate on whether he’s a high end Genius or a low end Extraordinary Genius and on the technicalities of the definition.
2) This thread showed that there is a clear need to rework parts of his profile(to both sides), primarily his intelligence section. Not just due to mischaracterizations, but also because there are things the profile is either missing or making unclear. This creates a roadblock for making a 2nd thread.
3) Once the totality of presented evidence in this thread is considered, I truly believe this is a valid rating for Ayanokouji.
I hope we can resolve the matter of his rating so we may be able to proceed towards making the needed changes to his profile. That work is currently ongoing.
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ReaperAndBlues
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I don’t think any staff wanted to read 17 pages to judge this (and why would they lol) so this was probably the best way to find a conclusion to the thread. It ends up with Ayanokouji getting better explanations on his profile and both sides have agreed.
Finally this can be over…
RoggerReggor
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I will mention these things, however:
1. About the feat from Year 2 Volume 5, TheHuntsman1001 and MCH2 have agreed that it's pretty controversial, therefore, it will be debated upon before and then reach a necessary conclusion and then a thread will be made for it. It is also much important that this feat alone has a good potential to change the ratings. As for now, this feat will not be included in his current profile for obvious reasons.
2. The chess feats from Year 2 Volume 11 and 11.5 statements collectively need to be examined. As for the debate, it is good to be ditched (for now). The creators of the analysis of the chess feats in the scaling community outside VSBW (which is also a source for my own feats analysis and probably for other scalers on VSBW to post the feats' analysis as well) have decided to re-work on the document regarding it, and therefore, I think the feat shouldn't be included in his profile for now as well.
As of now, the reasons why an "At least Genius, possibly Extraordinary Genius" rating is substantiated is due to Kiyotaka's learning ability along with knowledge and adaptability, strategic abilities and predictions (which will be re-mentioned in a thread later), therefore, I think this will summarize the thread for everyone to the best of my guesses.
Thank you for your patience. With this, Kiyotaka has officially made it to the top with him being the most controversial character with probably the lowest of tiers of scaling on VSBW.
We are currently working on his profile's justification. MCH2 is getting a blog ready.
HelloThere1089
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Y'all need mod votes smh. Message some mods on their walls or else this will go nowhere.
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How does an intelligence downgrade thread get to 17 pages?
... I'll take a look through this later today.
... I'll take a look through this later today.
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Alright, fine with me
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This is going to be very damaging!
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