Downgrade Infinite speed Arata

[The_Emperor4th]

It's LITERALLY a thing like do you even watch other anime besides trinity?

I do watch other manga and anime, but generalizing every visual aspect that happens to look similar without proper elaboration is wrong, which is what you are doing now. Each author has his own way of drawing a scene or a drawing of each character.

The reason why it's infinite is because black background = means time stop, yes? But OP already debunked that argument, by showing the panel where it showed that black background DOESN'T always mean time stop.

I never said that the all black panel manga scene in T7 refers to time stop (even though the majority of all black panel scene seems to refer to time stop ability), I myself disagree in that scene, Deus Trinity literally never time stop or slow time, he never do any abilities related to "time hax" for the reason that they both have different Archieve and Theme.

What I suggest is that his attack is too fast to cause the situation around him like a freeze for a moment and then Arata can react to his attack and counter again within a finite time. IIRC, there are some feats stating that his attack (Lucifer Gaze) is very fast than the fastest, which is it probably can referring to a speed.

All black panel scenes in the manga so far are closely related to Acedia Archieve where the context there refers to time stop and in some cases, it is time slow which only Liese can clearly use. As I said above, they both have different Archieve and Theme, the manga itself is explicit there is no clear evidence and even for now it is impossible that other Archieve users can use the same magic techniques from other Archieve users, so how are you all assuming it is time slow just because the black scene "time slow" is shown only 1 time if it is time slow? even there is also a statement from Liese that uses special techniques from her Theme. (iirc).

I believe that we will not judge a scene/scan only through the visuals that are displayed without paying attention to every statement and context of what happened there.

Do you even understand the situation you are in right now? what you are saying is also just an assumption lmao And for you someone who probably only seen trinity, for u it's probably useless words, but for me it's not.

You should now realize that you are also doing the same thing by making the assumption that Black scene in Deus scene = Black scene in Liese scene (time slow), even though they have many differences in terms of aspects such as magic abilities, Archieve and Theme.

 

[Fixxed]

I do watch other manga and anime, but generalizing every visual aspect that happens to look similar without proper elaboration is wrong, which is what you are doing now. Each author has his own way of drawing a scene or a drawing of each character.

I never said that the all black panel manga scene in T7 refers to time stop (even though the majority of all black panel scene seems to refer to time stop ability), I myself disagree in that scene, Deus Trinity literally never time stop or slow time, he never do any abilities related to "time hax" for the reason that they both have different Archieve and Theme.

What I suggest is that his attack is too fast to cause the situation around him like a freeze for a moment and then Arata can react to his attack and counter again within a finite time. IIRC, there are some feats stating that his attack (Lucifer Gaze) is very fast than the fastest, which is it probably can referring to a speed.

All black panel scenes in the manga so far are closely related to Acedia Archieve where the context there refers to time stop and in some cases, it is time slow which only Liese can clearly use. As I said above, they both have different Archieve and Theme, the manga itself is explicit there is no clear evidence and even for now it is impossible that other Archieve users can use the same magic techniques from other Archieve users, so how are you all assuming it is time slow just because the black scene "time slow" is shown only 1 time if it is time slow? even there is also a statement from Liese that uses special techniques from her Theme. (iirc).

I believe that we will not judge a scene/scan only through the visuals that are displayed without paying attention to every statement and context of what happened there.

You should now realize that you are also doing the same thing by making the assumption that Black scene in Deus scene = Black scene in Liese scene (time slow), even though they have many differences in terms of aspects such as magic abilities, Archieve and Theme.

Spoiler: .

mental gymnastics

 

[Antvasima]

So have the most recent posts managed to convince you in one direction or the other, Medeus?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Honestly, I suppose Infinite speed is fine to keep. It seems an affiliation fallacy about "Black backgrounds equal time stop" when that's kind of a weird take. Plus, Arata literally does say in one of those panels that "Pretend time stop" was an ability as it's just sheer speed rather than an active time stop. And Nexp06, TheTrunz, and Rendy all appear more elaborate and showing explanations.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation. We seem to have reached a conclusion here then.

 

[Fixxed]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation. We seem to have reached a conclusion here then.

wait a minute I want to say something

 

[Fixxed]

Honestly, I suppose Infinite speed is fine to keep. It seems an affiliation fallacy about "Black backgrounds equal time stop" when that's kind of a weird take. Plus, Arata literally does say in one of those panels that "Pretend time stop" was an ability as it's just sheer speed rather than an active time stop. And Nexp06, TheTrunz, and Rendy all appear more elaborate and showing explanations.

First of all I think we all agree that it's not a Time Manip based ability but Lucifer Gaze's speed which is so fast that it causes a black panel. Which Black panel is an indication that time has stopped. And this is a fallacy as DDM says.

And I'll explain why.
1. He generalizes that all black panels are a sign that time has stopped which is wrong as I explained in the OP and here

already proved there are 2 pages if not all black panels are a time stop.

It doesn't matter whether she can do that (Time stop) or not because that's not the point I want to make. while the point I want to convey is when you make a big mistake in generalizing that all black panels are time stops. and again, that almost if there is a black panel=time stop scene it is explained on that page. but not with Lucifer gaze.

2. Lack of explanation that it really explains that time has stopped. Not just as time slows down because Lucifer gaze is too fast

3. Arata gets feats MAKES HIM ACHIEVE ALMOST INSTATANEOUS MOVEMENT in the next chapter which shows he doesn't have infinite speed.

And for @DarkDragonMedeus What is the conclusion you want to give. You said you agreed to maintain the infinite speed but didn't clearly explain the important part in your comment. What the t7 fans explain only explains that it is not the ability time stop and the black panel is an indication of the stop time. And I agree on point 1 that Lucifer gaze is not a Time Manipulation based ability but not with point 2 which generalizes that the black panel in the scene = time stop.

And for "pretend time stop" part can you elaborate more on those scans with feats Lucifer gaze. Because this feats was based on Time Manipulation Ability.

I mean, just give it a solid evidence. that's all, why is it so difficult

 

[TheTrunZ]

3. Arata gets feats MAKES HIM ACHIEVE ALMOST INSTATANEOUS MOVEMENT in the next chapter which shows he doesn't have infinite speed.

Sorry, what we're discussing here is Arata's infinite combat/react speed and not his travel speed.

 

[Fixxed]

Sorry, what we're discussing here is Arata's infinite combat/react speed and not his travel speed.

movement can also be connoted as combat speed, after all he was fighting in same time

 

[TheTrunZ]

movement can also be connoted as combat speed, after all he was fighting in same time

Yes, but Arata was floating when he reacted with Lucifer Gaze, so I don't think it's possible to equate it with travel speed.

 

[Antvasima]

First of all I think we all agree that it's not a Time Manip based ability but Lucifer Gaze's speed which is so fast that it causes a black panel. Which Black panel is an indication that time has stopped. And this is a fallacy as DDM says.

And I'll explain why.
1. He generalizes that all black panels are a sign that time has stopped which is wrong as I explained in the OP and here



2. Lack of explanation that it really explains that time has stopped. Not just as time slows down because Lucifer gaze is too fast

3. Arata gets feats MAKES HIM ACHIEVE ALMOST INSTATANEOUS MOVEMENT in the next chapter which shows he doesn't have infinite speed.

And for @DarkDragonMedeus What is the conclusion you want to give. You said you agreed to maintain the infinite speed but didn't clearly explain the important part in your comment. What the t7 fans explain only explains that it is not the ability time stop and the black panel is an indication of the stop time. And I agree on point 1 that Lucifer gaze is not a Time Manipulation based ability but not with point 2 which generalizes that the black panel in the scene = time stop.

And for "pretend time stop" part can you elaborate more on those scans with feats Lucifer gaze. Because this feats was based on Time Manipulation Ability.

I mean, just give it a solid evidence. that's all, why is it so difficult

@DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think?

 

[The_Emperor4th]

Honestly, I suppose Infinite speed is fine to keep. It seems an affiliation fallacy about "Black backgrounds equal time stop" when that's kind of a weird take. Plus, Arata literally does say in one of those panels that "Pretend time stop" was an ability as it's just sheer speed rather than an active time stop. And Nexp06, TheTrunz, and Rendy all appear more elaborate and showing explanations.

Thank you for replying and understanding our situation

already proved there are 2 pages if not all black panels are a time stop.

It doesn't matter whether she can do that (Time stop) or not because that's not the point I want to make. while the point I want to convey is when you make a big mistake in generalizing that all black panels are time stops. and again, that almost if there is a black panel=time stop scene it is explained on that page. but not with Lucifer gaze.

Different Archive and Theme = Different magic abilities, the scan you showed shows that it is the Last Crest which only T7 members can do. There is no proof that Deus can use the Last Crest.

2. Lack of explanation that it really explains that time has stopped. Not just as time slows down because Lucifer gaze is too fast

We already have a statement that Lucifer Gaze is a very fast attack from the fastest available. And it's common sense if you look at it from the context that the attack is too fast to make the environment seem like it freezes.

3. Arata gets feats MAKES HIM ACHIEVE ALMOST INSTATANEOUS MOVEMENT in the next chapter which shows he doesn't have infinite speed.

The link does not work.

And for @DarkDragonMedeus What is the conclusion you want to give. You said you agreed to maintain the infinite speed but didn't clearly explain the important part in your comment. What the t7 fans explain only explains that it is not the ability time stop and the black panel is an indication of the stop time. And I agree on point 1 that Lucifer gaze is not a Time Manipulation based ability but not with point 2 which generalizes that the black panel in the scene = time stop.

Use common sense and look at the context lol, Who said that is literally time stop based on black scene?, btw already explained above.

I mean, just give it a solid evidence. that's all, why is it so difficult

Thats a burden of proof to you now who makes the assumption that it is time slow, without any additional evidence to back up your claim that Deus can do time slow at that moment.

 

[The_Emperor4th]

I am now dizzy and in an unhealthy state, probab late to respond. I leave the Admin to judge all of this. I hope the Admin here can make the right decision.

Thank you to all the Admins and Mods who came to give your opinion in this thread.

 

[Fixxed]

There is no proof that Deus can use the Last Crest.

Never say this, don't do Strawmanning to my argument. Never say if he can do that.

And it's common sense if you look at it from the context that the attack is too fast to make the environment seem like it freezes

What I need here is does time really stop? I need these feats

The link does not work.

Already fixxed that

Who said that is literally time stop based on black scene?

You can check the Previous CRT...

Thats a burden of proof to you now who makes the assumption that it is time slow, without any additional evidence to back up your claim that Deus can do time slow at that moment.

man, you don't get it all my argument right? i never say is that literal time slow (based on ability time manip). I mean Lucifer Gaze's speed is too fast until the surroundings slow down. this is common sense in fiction and when there is a similar case we cannot justify that time actually stops when there are no statements/feats in that panel. therefore GIVE A FEATS THAT SAYS TIME IS STOP.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I believe the context is just that, a character who cannot freeze time is still capable of launching attacks that take literally 0 time for it to reach its target.

 

[Fixxed]

I believe the context is just that, a character who cannot freeze time is still capable of launching attacks that take literally 0 time for it to reach its target.

yeah, what I'm concerned about here is it really takes 0 time? due to the lack of explanation in the panel

 

[ImmortalDread]

Somehow it said slowing down instead.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Its speed can freeze the surrounding environment

Why does that make it infinite speed? Why couldn't it just be some form of higher speed than the rest of the cast?

Hell, in real life just moving at speeds like mach 100 would make the world seem frozen too.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Why does that make it infinite speed? Why couldn't it just be some form of higher speed than the rest of the cast?

Hell, in real life just moving at speeds like mach 100 would make the world seem frozen too.

Not frozen, slowed down*

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If it just says slowing down, not a 100% literally complete stop relative to their own movement, then I suppose it cannot really reach Infinite.

 

[The_Emperor4th]

Never say this, don't do Strawmanning to my argument. Never say if he can do that.

I don't mean tho, it's because the text in the scan literally stated that she used the Last crest to make the surroundings become time slow.

You can check the Previous CRT...

You mean from @Rendynoc0unter ?, I disagree, see the reason above and we both agree that this is not a time stop by generalizing all black panels is time stop.

Hell, in real life just moving at speeds like mach 100 would make the world seem frozen too.

Mach 100 will be in Massively Hypersonic right?, I don't agree for Case specific especially like T7. There are already characters that have reached SOL and above.

 

[The_Emperor4th]

Alright, after re-reading the manga over and over again, I might find some evidence that it is not time slow and can be additional evidence that it qualifies as infinite speed.

So, what I understand from Fixxed's argument is that the black panel scene does not necessarily refer to time freeze/stop and maybe it is time slow by comparing the scan from Liese who has done time slow with the visual black panel.

If you look at the visual context in the time slow scene, we can see Miglione moving slightly from her initial position the first time in "time slow". We can see that there is a movement of position from her (and there seems to be a sound effect if she tries to move even in that situation). Also, we can also see the change in her facial reaction when she know that she will be attacked by Liese.

If compared to Arata's scene, there is no change in his body position or any change in his facial reaction when he is about to panic attack from various directions, which indicates that the attack is too fast. The visuals in the manga depict it as if it freeze/stop.

Time slow that we know is not really going to literally make time stop right? so there is logic here if the person affected will have a slight change (such as body position, facial reaction and others). And I'm sure this is not slow time (Arata and Deus scene).

 

[Fixxed]

this argument is not really needed. the heck you can even argue infinite speed arata (reaction speed) from the start of the Lucifer gaze's effect. I mean, you can react immediately or later you can still argue it becomes infinite speed. cuz it still from same black panel.

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

This is the case with Adam, who can react to attacks. (on anime, Adam was frozen and then he could attack his enemy)


8 : 45

 

[The_Emperor4th]

Just call Admin and Mod, I'm in a bad position (unhealthy) to debate about this right now, let them decide.

And for Fixxed last rebuttal, I don't understand what you are trying to convey (maybe because I am not well and lack focus to understand your argument).

 

[Fixxed]

This is the case with Adam, who can react to attacks. (on anime, Adam was frozen and then he could attack his enemy)


8 : 45

don't forget, feats adam get a detailed explanation. even so, speed adam on this site (Vbsw) is only rated "Possibility infinite".

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

this argument is not really needed. the heck you can even argue infinite speed arata (reaction speed) from the start of the Lucifer gaze's effect. I mean, you can react immediately or later you can still argue it becomes infinite speed. cuz it still from same black panel.

?

 

[Fixxed]

What?

?

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

We don't understand what you're saying there.

 

[Fixxed]

We don't understand what you're saying there.

No problem

 

[Fixxed]

If it just says slowing down, not a 100% literally complete stop relative to their own movement, then I suppose it cannot really reach Infinite.

Waiting for your conclusion then, thanks

 

[Antvasima]

Why does that make it infinite speed? Why couldn't it just be some form of higher speed than the rest of the cast?

Hell, in real life just moving at speeds like mach 100 would make the world seem frozen too.

If it just says slowing down, not a 100% literally complete stop relative to their own movement, then I suppose it cannot really reach Infinite.

Medeus and IMade are usually sensible. Perhaps we should go with their conclusions here?

 

[The_Emperor4th]

Mach 100 will be in Massively Hypersonic right?, I don't agree for Case specific especially like T7. There are already characters that have reached SOL and above.

Medeus and IMade are usually sensible. Perhaps we should go with their conclusions here?

I have replied to @IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 message

Alright, after re-reading the manga over and over again, I might find some evidence that it is not time slow and can be additional evidence that it qualifies as infinite speed.

So, what I understand from Fixxed's argument is that the black panel scene does not necessarily refer to time freeze/stop and maybe it is time slow by comparing the scan from Liese who has done time slow with the visual black panel.

If you look at the visual context in the time slow scene, we can see Miglione moving slightly from her initial position the first time in "time slow". We can see that there is a movement of position from her (and there seems to be a sound effect if she tries to move even in that situation). Also, we can also see the change in her facial reaction when she know that she will be attacked by Liese.

If compared to Arata's scene, there is no change in his body position or any change in his facial reaction when he is about to panic attack from various directions, which indicates that the attack is too fast. The visuals in the manga depict it as if it freeze/stop.

Time slow that we know is not really going to literally make time stop right? so there is logic here if the person affected will have a slight change (such as body position, facial reaction and others). And I'm sure this is not slow time (Arata and Deus scene).

Can you tag DDM and the other staff?

I have brought some new things above recently. And probably its very important to be additional evidence.

 

[Antvasima]

I have replied to @IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 message

Can you tag DDM and the other staff?

I have brought some new things above recently. And probably its very important to be additional evidence.

Which staff members have helped out in this thread previously?

 

[The_Emperor4th]

Which staff members have helped out in this thread previously?

DDM so far.

 

[Vietthai96]

Anyway i'm still neutral, but leaning toward agreeing with removal of Infinite speed, since the entire premise of it is assume that Lucifer's Gaze is so fast that time is stopped based on a single panel with argument that black panel is time stopped. Which to me is a really big stretch since nothing indicated such a thing (excluding the obvious anti-feat with one black panel), it could be time stopped due to speed, or it could be just artistic choice to display tense moment (which very common in manga drawing), also like IMade said, simply being too fast can aldo perceive the slower one as frozen.
Anyway this is my take, however i can understand the verse supporters' reasoning, just not enough to me, so in case if most people goes with possibly Infinite speed i have no problem with it

Alright, after re-reading the manga over and over again, I might find some evidence that it is not time slow and can be additional evidence that it qualifies as infinite speed.

So, what I understand from Fixxed's argument is that the black panel scene does not necessarily refer to time freeze/stop and maybe it is time slow by comparing the scan from Liese who has done time slow with the visual black panel.

If you look at the visual context in the time slow scene, we can see Miglione moving slightly from her initial position the first time in "time slow". We can see that there is a movement of position from her (and there seems to be a sound effect if she tries to move even in that situation). Also, we can also see the change in her facial reaction when she know that she will be attacked by Liese.

If compared to Arata's scene, there is no change in his body position or any change in his facial reaction when he is about to panic attack from various directions, which indicates that the attack is too fast. The visuals in the manga depict it as if it freeze/stop.

Time slow that we know is not really going to literally make time stop right? so there is logic here if the person affected will have a slight change (such as body position, facial reaction and others). And I'm sure this is not slow time (Arata and Deus scene).

This is, frankly, visual abusing. Since you need to know that all manga are using standstill image so it very hard to convey movement, usually mangaka using speed-line technique to convey characters move. In the timeslow scene, the manga have more than two pages to convey facial movement using standstill image and there is speed-line when they draw the mouth indicating its movement, however Arata scene using only 1 page with standstill image so you can't really compare the two scene. Not only that but also if i using the same visual abusing arguments as your then in the Lucifer's Gaze scene there is no speed-line to convey movement, thus Lucifer's Gaze attack did not move which mean no physical movement which also mean no speed since physical movement is an important component to measure speed. Also with the same visual abusing i can downgrade infinite speed since there is more visual anti-feat than visual infinite speed.

Medeus and IMade are usually sensible. Perhaps we should go with their conclusions here?

For the sake of fairness, i think we can ask Elizhaa to evaluate this problem, since he has experiences in evaluating these kind of verses

 

[The_Emperor4th]

Some of the points you said have already been explained above, and for IMade stuff it depends on the fiction itself i would said. Not all fiction really follows science standards like in real life.

In the timeslow scene, the manga have more than two pages to convey facial movement using standstill image and there is speed-line when they draw the mouth indicating its movement, however Arata scene using only 1 page with standstill image so you can't really compare the two scene.

I made a comparison based on the op side from the beginning comparing that 2 scenes. That is time slow Liese black scene with Deus black scene. Look at the very first page.

no physical movement which also mean no speed since physical movement is an important component to measure speed.

Arata counters all attacks from Lucifer Gaze by using physical technique, which means he has physical movement.

Also with the same visual abusing i can downgrade infinite speed since there is more visual anti-feat than visual infinite speed.

I would like to know about this but unfortunately i’m not in good health to respond your argument in the future.

If possibly/likely is the solution, then I can agree with that.

 

[Fixxed]

I would like to know about this but unfortunately i’m not in good health to respond your argument in the future.

if you are sick, you better put down your handphone and get enough rest until your body recovers.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you tag DDM and the other staff?

I have brought some new things above recently. And probably its very important to be additional evidence.

Which staff members have helped out in this thread previously?

DDM so far.

Can somebody properly explain all of the main arguments here in a single post here please? I can ask for further staff input afterwards.

 

[Fixxed]

Can somebody properly explain all of the main arguments here in a single post here please? I can ask for further staff input afterwards.

First of all I think we all agree that it's not a Time Manip based ability but Lucifer Gaze's speed which is so fast that it causes a black panel. Which Black panel is an indication that time has stopped. And this is a fallacy as DDM says.

And I'll explain why.
1. He generalizes that all black panels are a sign that time has stopped which is wrong as I explained in the OP and here



2. Lack of explanation that it really explains that time has stopped. Not just as time slows down because Lucifer gaze is too fast

3. Arata gets feats MAKES HIM ACHIEVE ALMOST INSTATANEOUS MOVEMENT in the next chapter which shows he doesn't have infinite speed.

And for @DarkDragonMedeus What is the conclusion you want to give. You said you agreed to maintain the infinite speed but didn't clearly explain the important part in your comment. What the t7 fans explain only explains that it is not the ability time stop and the black panel is an indication of the stop time. And I agree on point 1 that Lucifer gaze is not a Time Manipulation based ability but not with point 2 which generalizes that the black panel in the scene = time stop.

And for "pretend time stop" part can you elaborate more on those scans with feats Lucifer gaze. Because this feats was based on Time Manipulation Ability.

I mean, just give it a solid evidence. that's all, why is it so difficult

Anyway i'm still neutral, but leaning toward agreeing with removal of Infinite speed, since the entire premise of it is assume that Lucifer's Gaze is so fast that time is stopped based on a single panel with argument that black panel is time stopped. Which to me is a really big stretch since nothing indicated such a thing (excluding the obvious anti-feat with one black panel), it could be time stopped due to speed, or it could be just artistic choice to display tense moment (which very common in manga drawing), also like IMade said, simply being too fast can aldo perceive the slower one as frozen.
Anyway this is my take, however i can understand the verse supporters' reasoning, just not enough to me, so in case if most people goes with possibly Infinite speed i have no problem with it

This is, frankly, visual abusing. Since you need to know that all manga are using standstill image so it very hard to convey movement, usually mangaka using speed-line technique to convey characters move. In the timeslow scene, the manga have more than two pages to convey facial movement using standstill image and there is speed-line when they draw the mouth indicating its movement, however Arata scene using only 1 page with standstill image so you can't really compare the two scene. Not only that but also if i using the same visual abusing arguments as your then in the Lucifer's Gaze scene there is no speed-line to convey movement, thus Lucifer's Gaze attack did not move which mean no physical movement which also mean no speed since physical movement is an important component to measure speed. Also with the same visual abusing i can downgrade infinite speed since there is more visual anti-feat than visual infinite speed.

For the sake of fairness, i think we can ask Elizhaa to evaluate this problem, since he has experiences in evaluating these kind of verses

I think this one