Doomguy's weird ability

[Axxtentacle]

Doomguy is given HDE for "being a primeval". There are multiple issues with this.

Also, THIS thread is wrong on... SO many levels.

So, i noticed that DOOM doesn't have HDE for primevals, despite them being higher dimensional beings by nature and think it was just forgotten to be added.

The explanation, as to why they are HDE's is because they were beings from the void, which is confirmed and accepted as a higher dimensional plane, out of which the primevals created reality, and the verse. all of which is already accepted. https://gyazo.com/eb3c87514359933e8c59ce3647222eda

Davoth is the ONLY one who was in the void, and HE ALONE was the only one to create everything. Not ALL the Primevals. The Primevals were created afterwards.

The fact that Primevals are beings of the Void, and can create realities with those said realities being mere extensions of their being, supports the fact that they're in a higher state of existence, as opposed to beings of that said reality.

Not the Primevals. Davoth. Just Davoth.

The void being infinitely larger than those realities they created, and the primevals being residents of the void.

Again, just Davoth.

Davoth himself created multiple 2-A realms, such as jekkad (Hell) Urdak, and the Human world, all of which are 2-A realms, and an unknown amount of known and unknown dimensions of which we don't know about.
Hell is stated to be a mere "extension" of davoth, and is literally stated to encompass the verse itself in his arms.
Such as davoth's rage, transforming and affecting the entire 2-A realm and transforming it, which supports the fact that it's an extension of his existence as the multiverse itself gets transformed / affected just by the emotional state of his body.

He is not "literally stated" to encompass the verse itself in his arms. It was a metaphorical statement regarding him having complete control over the Multiverse.

1. the Doom Slayer is NOT a primeval. The Doom Slayer is never called a Primeval, and it's just a fan theory that he is one.

2. The Primevals themselves have very physical, very 3-D bodies. Doomguy is specifically a 1-1 copy of Davoth physically. Same build, face, hair, everything. And he's a 3-D physical being who has power beyond that. It is their POWER that is Higher Dimensional. You can exist and manipulate a higher-dimensional structure without actually being 4-D or 5-D in size. We humans are all 3-D, despite existing in a 4-D structure. You could technically argue their minds/"Essence" to be since the disembodied Primevals are Omnipresent across a shit ton of timelines and universes. They're everywhere and can influence everything.

This thread is to remove HDE for Doomguy AND the Primevals. Not just Doomguy.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I agree that the thing sounds very fishy at best.

 

[Hellscream]

Except for that Davoth himself is a primeval, and while it is true that he's the first primeval, the fact remains that he is one.
Other primevals being of the same race, and even being defeated by one.

Yes the primevals, not just Davoth "only a primeval can defeat another primeval" "there can't be two primevals in the same dimension"
No dimension can contain more than one primeval.

The reasoning for Davoth to be HDE should obviously scale to his race, to beings such as the father who even defeated Davoth

Okay, that's literally irrelevant as hell is an extension of davoth, and that's just your interpretation which isn't factual.
Even if you don't take that statement literally, it is a fact that hell is just an extension of Davoth.

1) You know Doomslayer received Davoth's essence with the divinity machine right?
And you know only a Primeval can defeat another primeval right?
Which is stated directly in the codex?

2) And doomguy being a clone of davoth is not an argument of davoth's being as Doomslayer was just a normal human before going through the divinity machine and receiving the essence of Davoth, Doomguy was just a normal human then, not a primeval and so were his stats.
If a higher dimensional being creates an avatar of himself that's obviously human, that doesn't debunk the statement of his higher dimensionality.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Except for that Davoth himself is a primeval, and while it is true that he's the first primeval, the fact remains that he is one.
Other primevals being of the same race, and even being defeated by one.

That... doesn't prove anything. Davoth is the one who did it. "Primeval" isn't even a race, it's a position. It's the deity that looks over a realm, and the only argument for Doomguy being a Primeval is that he beat one and looks over earth.

Yes the primevals, not just Davoth "only a primeval can defeat another primeval" "there can't be two primevals in the same dimension"
No dimension can contain more than one primeval.

So... the Slayer is the Primeval deity for a universe he was born into, and existed before him for billions of years? If he's a Primeval, why is his universe still intact? He exists there all the time. Him and his Primeval existing together in the Earth realm would destroy it. So either that statement isn't true, or he's not a Primeval. This argument doesn't even stand for itself.

The reasoning for Davoth to be HDE should obviously scale to his race, to beings such as the father who even defeated Davoth

It's not a race. It's a bunch of Deities, the title Primeval is exactly that. A title. The Father was stated to be the first Maykr, which is a completely different race, but he's still a Primeval.

Okay, that's literally irrelevant as hell is an extension of davoth, and that's just your interpretation which isn't factual.

And yours is the objective meaning of the statement? Not just another interpretation? Didn't know you were the sole proprietor of truth. I apologize to thee, thy lordship.

Even if you don't take that statement literally, it is a fact that hell is just an extension of Davoth.

It's not an extension of his physical form. His physical form is 3D. It's an extension of his essence. His BODY was destroyed when The Father ripped his Life Sphere out, leaving only his spiritual form.

1) You know Doomslayer received Davoth's essence with the divinity machine right?
And you know only a Primeval can defeat another primeval right?
Which is stated directly in the codex?

Which was a power boost for him. It was also an extremely miniscule amount of Davoth's essence. It didn't make him into a Primeval, because he didn't become the protector deity of any realm. Earth's realm would still have its Primeval, that guy never disappeared. What exactly would the Slayer become the deity of? He's still just Doomslayer, he's just stronger.

2) And doomguy being a clone of davoth is not an argument of davoth's being as Doomslayer was just a normal human before going through the divinity machine and receiving the essence of Davoth, Doomguy was just a normal human then, not a primeval and so were his stats.
If a higher dimensional being creates an avatar of himself that's obviously human, that doesn't debunk the statement of his higher dimensionality.

This is never stated to make him into a Primeval, and he's still not even that powerful by this point. He fought The Champion, a Titan in Hell, after going into a divinity machine. This Titan is unquantifiably stronger than tier 7, since it's stated to be stronger than all who had came before, including the DOOM 2 Icon of Sin. If he's seriously a PRIMEVAL by this point, why did something that's nowhere near Primeval level put up such a massive fight against him?

It's also a tiny portion of Davoth's power. If a Primeval just gives you a tiny bit of their power, that doesn't make you a Primeval. It would just be a power boost. Which is what happened.

It's not even an avatar, it's a 1-1 copy. He created a champion meant to overthrow the Maykrs and modeled it after himself. You can't accurately model something that's physically higher dimensional in a 3-D way, unless you think the Slayer is physically higher-dimensional and the guy we play as when he's walking around earth is just some weird gameplay-representation of him.

He also was very much so NOT just a normal dude before the Divinity Machine, tf? He spent "eons" fighting in Hell and was MASSIVELY superhuman before he goes into the Divinity Machine. Unless you're claiming humans in DOOM are just all tier 8 lmao

This is just a fan theory that got popular. It's a POSSIBILITY, not something that's confirmed or solid enough to go on a profile on a wiki that strives for ACCURACY.

 

[Hellscream]

No, that's not the argument of Doomslayer being a primeval no clue where you're getting that from, the argument is that he received davoth's essence.
And yes primevals are a race, they're the first beings of the DOOM multiverse.

Comment is pretty useless, don't really see what you're trying to prove or counter here

No lol, it was never stated that the father is a maykr feel free to show me the screenshots, and no being a primeval is not just a title tf are you even saying

When you have hell, that's stated to be an extension of davoth, and then have jekkad transforming into hell just due to the emotional state of davoth, im pretty sure that supports the statement and my interpretation itself.

Feel free to show where it's stated to be an extension of his essence, which is just your headcanon you're claiming that his spiritual state > his physical state right?

No, it wasn't just a power boost for him, after he defeated Davoth doomslayer himself was affected due to him receiving the essence of davoth from the divinity machine which caused him to pass out and get sealed that and the statement of the codex "only a primeval can defeat another primeval"

I like how you're trying to reason to use how a tier 7 Character gets boosted to tier 1 as an argument with DOOM gameplay, as opposed to lore
Where in lore does Doomslayer ever struggle? Or where does he take damage?

Damn so a tiny portion of his power made him tier 1, and capable of defeating davoth himself?

Would you mind showing me where it's stated that Davoth made doomslayer to be a 1-1 clone of himself?
I never saw it while playing the game


???????
Doomslayer pre divinity machine wasn't fighting for eons in hell, that's post divinity machine Doomslayer pre divinity machine wasn't immortal no idea where you're pulling that from but alright

It's not a fan theory, it's literally by going off and what's stated in the codex.

 

[Axxtentacle]

No, that's not the argument of Doomslayer being a primeval no clue where you're getting that from, the argument is that he received davoth's essence.
And yes primevals are a race, they're the first beings of the DOOM multiverse.

Receiving energy from something does not turn you into something.

No, Davoth was the first being and the Primevals were his creations.

Comment is pretty useless, don't really see what you're trying to prove or counter here

No lol, it was never stated that the father is a maykr feel free to show me the screenshots, and no being a primeval is not just a title tf are you even saying

You don't seem to know your stuff.

"in the beginning there was only one Maykr- the Father".

When you have hell, that's stated to be an extension of davoth, and then have jekkad transforming into hell just due to the emotional state of davoth, im pretty sure that supports the statement and my interpretation itself.

That doesn't support the statement... tf? The statement doesn't support itself. It doesn't support your interpretation either, because Hell is still not his physical body, which he LOST when The Father ripped his life sphere out, hence the ENTIRE PLOTLINE OF THE DLC being about PREVENTING him from getting his PHYSICAL body back.

Feel free to show where it's stated to be an extension of his essence, which is just your headcanon you're claiming that his spiritual state > his physical state right?

His physical state literally isn't there. It CAN'T be an extension of his physical self. Additionally, yeah, the spiritual state/essence IS superior, because that's their power. They need a physical form to actually use their influence.

No, it wasn't just a power boost for him, after he defeated Davoth doomslayer himself was affected due to him receiving the essence of davoth from the divinity machine which caused him to pass out and get sealed that and the statement of the codex "only a primeval can defeat another primeval"

It WAS just a power boost, though. Getting energy from something does not make you into it.

"Only a primeval can defeat another primeval" because they're the strongest things around??? Obviously all the weaker things can't beat them.

I like how you're trying to reason to use how a tier 7 Character gets boosted to tier 1 as an argument with DOOM gameplay, as opposed to lore
Where in lore does Doomslayer ever struggle? Or where does he take damage?

lmao this ISN'T a fight that happens in gameplay? I'm not talking about the Icon of Sin. This comes from the Slayer Testaments, a titan that's just referred to as a Champion, and "stronger than all who came before it", who modern day icon of sin is stronger than. It's a completely different Titan. Get your facts straight.

Codex/Artifacts

UAC REPORT FILE D4NUVHAO Test subjects exposed to this sphere exhibit extreme rage and increased strength. It has been noted that subjects given the Berserk sphere will vent their rage on any living creature they can find, and will even self-harm if they have no outlet for their fury. In the...

doom.fandom.com

"and a mighty battle was fought on the desolate plains" would imply it wasn't just a clean stomp.

You don't know the lore, yet you're arguing like you do.

Damn so a tiny portion of his power made him tier 1, and capable of defeating davoth himself?

He got stronger AFTER this point, hence him having POWER ABSORPTION and RPL on his PROFILE. Hence him having a hard time against The Champion, hence him not being tier 1 at this point. Unless you believe that anything stronger than The Titan/Champion is tier 1.

Would you mind showing me where it's stated that Davoth made doomslayer to be a 1-1 clone of himself?
I never saw it while playing the game

Show you where it's stated? Do you need every bit of information fed to you through a straw? They're physically identical, and we can see that in game. The only difference in their designs are the color of their eyes and Davoth's scars.

Nice job dodging the Samur Maykr point.

???????
Doomslayer pre divinity machine wasn't fighting for eons in hell, that's post divinity machine Doomslayer pre divinity machine wasn't immortal no idea where you're pulling that from but alright

Even if I'm wrong about the eons part, he was STILL massively superhuman before the Divinity Machine. He outclassed demons and solo'd multiple Night Sentinels by himself without armor or weapons, who are all superhuman people who are capable of fighting Super Heavy demons. The Night Sentinels were also the people that put him into the Divinity Machine, thus proving his superhuman abilities WAY before he got into the Divinity Machine.

It's not a fan theory, it's literally by going off and what's stated in the codex.

No, still just a fan theory. Codex doesn't support you, and again, it's still just a theory. A GAAAAAME theory!

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

I agree with the CRT FRA

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Hellscream]

Never seen that shit in the game about the father being a maykr, but doesn't matter either way

Dude is using gameplay as his argument, when it's obvious that lore =/= gameplay literally irrelevant argument, when you have head director directly confirming certain things that aren't even noted or mentioned inside of the game direct statements > gameplay especially when the gameplay isn't even supposed to support the lore.

Are you dumb?
You literally say that they can't even use their power properly in their spiritual state and need their physical body to be at their full power which is stated like 5000 times in the codex and the game so how exactly is their spiritual state superior?

No lol, it wasn't just a power boost guy is telling me that i don't know the lore when it's directly stated that he received davoth's essence, the same reason why doomslayer passed out after killing him, since the essence of davoth disappeared.

Fact remains that only a primeval can beat another primeval buddy, which comes directly from the codex

I asked you to provided me with proof where he EVER took damage, which you failed to reply to since you wish to use gameplay as your arguments. He never took damage in the battle with the champion titan.
i never claimed that he was stronger than the icon of sin wtf are you even arguing?

AND A MIGHTY BATTLE, okay show me where he actually received damage, or whatever you're claiming.
he's not going to oneshot a 150 meter tall titan that's immortal, this doesn't imply that it was a difficult battle for him, just like any and all battles before "mighty battle" doesn't mean he struggled whatsoever. "A MIGHTY BATTLE" > titan proceeds to get turned into a mincemeat

Never was it stated that he had a hard time against the champion, stop pulling shit out of your ass, he stomped him like everything else.
So you're claiming he became tier 1 just by killing demons, as opposed to receiving davoth's essence and becoming an actual god?
?????

Wow so, he's not actually a 1 on 1 clone of davoth and there's no proof to support your claim?
That's crazy, so your point is useless then?

irrelevant comment tbh

It's not a theory, you don't even know that he received davoth's essence from the divinity machine, and his immortality and other shit, but here you are referring to it as a "powerboost"

Everything i said is stated in the codex, so what "fan theory" are you talking about exactly?

 

[Robo432343]

agree fra

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Hellscream don't be rude when you're debating. Thank you, comments such as "Are you dumb?" are fairly unnecessary.

 

[Newendigo]

Having recently played the games (Finally), I see from where Axx comes from.
I agree with OP.

 

[Hellscream]

Having recently played the games (Finally), I see from where Axx comes from.
I agree with OP.

Except for that the OP doesn't even know what he's talking about, and is pulling random shit out of the air

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Op makes sense.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Never seen that shit in the game about the father being a maykr, but doesn't matter either way

lmao it does because it proves Primeval isn't a race, don't shift the goalpost on me

Dude is using gameplay as his argument, when it's obvious that lore =/= gameplay literally irrelevant argument, when you have head director directly confirming certain things that aren't even noted or mentioned inside of the game direct statements > gameplay especially when the gameplay isn't even supposed to support the lore.

lmao?? The STORY of the DLC isn't "using gameplay as his argument".

Are you dumb?
You literally say that they can't even use their power properly in their spiritual state and need their physical body to be at their full power which is stated like 5000 times in the codex and the game so how exactly is their spiritual state superior?

Because the physical form is just a vessel, hence Samur Maykr being able to use the Father's power despite obviously not being The Father's original body.

No lol, it wasn't just a power boost guy is telling me that i don't know the lore when it's directly stated that he received davoth's essence, the same reason why doomslayer passed out after killing him, since the essence of davoth disappeared.

He received an EXTREMELY SMALL FRAGMENT of his essence. A fragment so small there's not even any notably missing from Davoth's life sphere.

Fact remains that only a primeval can beat another primeval buddy, which comes directly from the codex

Because of strength. So, all he'd need to beat a Primeval is to be stronger than one. Which he became. Irrelevant to keep repeating a piece of info I've been over in all of my posts.

I asked you to provided me with proof where he EVER took damage, which you failed to reply to since you wish to use gameplay as your arguments. He never took damage in the battle with the champion titan.
i never claimed that he was stronger than the icon of sin wtf are you even arguing?

Stop strawmanning me. I haven't used gameplay for my arguments.

AND A MIGHTY BATTLE, okay show me where he actually received damage, or whatever you're claiming.

A "mighty battle" implies it was not an easy fight. Him NOT fodderizing it means his AP isn't that far beyond it's durability. And hell, him being a stone wall would make sense. The Praetor Suit was made by The Wrench in Hell, and is therefore a supernatural piece of armor that's considered completely invulnerable.

he's not going to oneshot a 150 meter tall titan that's immortal

It's not immortal. It's just powerful. Idk where you're getting that information from.

Never was it stated that he had a hard time against the champion, stop pulling shit out of your ass, he stomped him like everything else.

"he stomped him like everything else" tf? That's completely baseless. The only way that would be true is if he actually did become a Primeval and become tier 1.

So you're claiming he became tier 1 just by killing demons, as opposed to receiving davoth's essence and becoming an actual god?
?????

I'm claiming he got massively stronger from the point. He didn't "Receive Davoth's essence" he received such a small fraction of Davoth's essence that there's not any notably missing from his Life Sphere.

"and becoming an actual god" show me literally ANYWHERE that refers to him as the earth dimension's Primeval.

Wow so, he's not actually a 1 on 1 clone of davoth and there's no proof to support your claim?
That's crazy, so your point is useless then?

Not like the point's that important, anyway.

irrelevant comment tbh

Someone being notably superhuman when you're trying to portray him as "just a normal guy" is pretty relevant.

It's not a theory, you don't even know that he received davoth's essence from the divinity machine, and his immortality and other shit, but here you are referring to it as a "powerboost"

It's literally stated that he was given "terrible power and speed" from the Divinity Machine. A stat boost. That's it. Seems like I'm the only one of us that does actually know what happened.

Codex/Artifacts

UAC REPORT FILE D4NUVHAO Test subjects exposed to this sphere exhibit extreme rage and increased strength. It has been noted that subjects given the Berserk sphere will vent their rage on any living creature they can find, and will even self-harm if they have no outlet for their fury. In the...

doom.fandom.com

And in his conquest against the blackened souls of the doomed, his prowess was shown. In his crusade, the Seraphim bestowed upon him terrible power and speed, and with his might he crushed the obsidian pillars of the Blood Temples. He set forth without pity upon the beasts of the nine circles. Unbreakable, incorruptible, unyielding, the Doom Slayer sought to end the dominion of the dark realm.

Everything i said is stated in the codex, so what "fan theory" are you talking about exactly?

No, it isn't. Nowhere is it said that he became a Primeval, a god, that he stomped The Champion, or that the Divinity Machine wasn't just a stat boost. You have no proof he became a Primeval beyond absorbing a miniscule amount of Davoth's power. When exactly would he have taken the Earth Dimension's Primeval's place? If not the earth dimension, what other dimension's Primeval? In order to be a Primeval, you have to be the deity of a certain dimension. The Slayer is not such. You can't just ignore that argument.

Still a fan theory.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Canon > Headcanon, so I agree with this CRT.

 

[Reiner04]

Canon > Headcanon, so I agree with this CRT.

Agree.

 

[Shmooply]

why didnt my message send wtf
I agree with the OP.

 

[ZeedKZ]

Agree. Don't even know how HDE got accepted in the first place.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

So, with the abundance of agreements towards the CRT, what now?

Do we wait for more agreements and further the debate, or do we apply the changes now?

 

[Vietthai96]

So, with the abundance of agreements towards the CRT, what now?

Do we wait for more agreements and further the debate, or do we apply the changes now?

Need one or two more staffs to comment. Also since @Firestorm808 agreed with the previous thread to add HDE, he should be called

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Im confused, is Doomguy getting downgraded from Low 1-C? Why wouldn't Low 1-C Doomslayer have HDE regardless of if hes a Primevil or not.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

His tier is fine, just the HDE ability is whack.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Would Doomguy not get NPI for Higher Dimensional beings in that case?

 

[Reiner04]

Would Doomguy not get NPI for Higher Dimensional beings in that case?

No. Just 5d ap.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

No. Just 5d ap.

How does he interact with Davoth if Davoth is a Higher Dimensional being?

 

[Reiner04]

How does he interact with Davoth if Davoth is a Higher Dimensional being?

You can interact with HDE beings, as per our standards.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

How does he interact with Davoth if Davoth is a Higher Dimensional being?

Davoth isn't physically 5-D, it is just that his AP is Low 1-C. Doomguy and the rest of the relevant characters will still have their tiers and everything, it is just their HDE ability being removed for the reasons above.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Would Doomguy not get NPI for Higher Dimensional beings in that case?

Nobody we know of in DOOM is physically 5-D. Everyone has a 3-D body.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Agreed in that case

 

[Vietthai96]

You don't even need NPI to interact with HDE being

 

[Shmooply]

Bump, this hasn't reached its conclusion yet.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah I agree with the OP.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Alright, another admin agreed to the OP. Should be okay to apply the changes to the profiles.

 

[Shmooply]

Nah, there's an annoying grace period now just like with VS threads.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Of course there is a god damn grace period.

How long is the duration of the grace period?

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Nah, there's an annoying grace period now just like with VS threads.

Nah, it can be applied. The 48 hour grace period, if that's what you're referring to, only applies to when the thread is created and it's been 13 days since it's been made. Also agree to the thread for whatever that's worth (probably nothing)

• For all content revision suggestions, a grace period of 48 hours should be allowed for the reviewing staff members to evaluate and approve them. This grace period applies to both minor and self-evident revisions, as well as larger revisions that may require more input from other staff members. This is to ensure that all staff members have the opportunity to review the suggested revisions and provide their input, even if the initial explanation post in a content revision thread is quite large and complicated. Until this grace period has elapsed since the time of the thread's creation, the revision should not be applied to the profiles.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

From how it's worded I thought that might be the case, but I always see people wait 48 hours after the last staff agreement.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

From how it's worded I thought that might be the case, but I always see people wait 48 hours after the last staff agreement.

I wasn't there on the thread for when the rule was implemented initially so I'm just going off what it says on the rules page.

 

[Reiner04]

From how it's worded I thought that might be the case, but I always see people wait 48 hours after the last staff agreement.

Uh no, maverick was there when the rule was implemented and she said 48 hrs is to wait since the creation of the thread.