Doomguy finally has hax

[ShionAH]

Don't care about the first one

Disagree with the second. Touching something higher dimensional is not enough for HDE

I am not counting you since you said you are doing this to troll me on discord mafaka

I genuinely don't see how he gains these powers with blessed, It's not as if he actually bestows any powers.

What? Davoth blessed Doomguy and made it so his Fate is always victory

Unless it's specifically and explicitly stated that Doomguy gains these powers with actual statements, it is quite unreasonable to say that Doomguy shares every powerset with Davoth. It may as well as be a rudimentary and flowery language that basically means Davoth gave a power boost to Doomguy.

I am not quite getting your logic here tbh. Why would Doomguy not get a power that is given to him by Davoth? This is like removing all of Immortality 8d because its not the character doing it. Are you implying Davoth made slayer so strong that he won no matter what? If so you need proof of this otherwise we go by the statement alone which is Fate Hax and Probability

 

[RaveeCPN]

I am not counting you since you said you are doing this to troll me on discord mafaka

That hurts...

 

[Akagami_Shanks1]

these are nice things but still not a kratos
i agree

 

[ShionAH]

I don't think it's accurate to say that Doomguy actively manipulates probability or fate, it's more accurately said that his raw power is so great, that regardless of the Infinite possibilities he is destined or guaranteed to be the one who destroys the Makyr-God and that nothing that can be done will ever change that outcome. Though it could be interpreted as him not being effected by the ability to manipulate Fate or Probability if the Makyr-God has those powers and that the hax used are things that won't effect Doomguy. I would change the proposals to reflect that and thus disagree with giving Doomguy the ability to manipulate those.

I dont get why you disagree tbh DDM. Why cannot we give this passive because Davoth blessed him with this?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Probability manipulation and Fate Manipulation are both Active abilities; otherwise the individual isn't actively "Manipulating" it. A "Passive" Probability Manipulation is called Supernatural Luck (Which honestly also works for me) and Blessed makes sense and I agree with that. As for Fate Manipulation I kinda forgot entirely what our policy for that is if it is passive or what we identify it as.

 

[ShionAH]

Probability manipulation and Fate Manipulation are both Active abilities; otherwise the individual isn't actively "Manipulating" it. A "Passive" Probability Manipulation is called Supernatural Luck (Which honestly also works for me) and Blessed makes sense and I agree with that. As for Fate Manipulation I kinda forgot entirely what our policy for that is if it is passive or what we identify it as.

Is that really how it works? I thought we just list them and add a Passive on it. I think you agree with the CRT but you misunderstood my wording that made it sound like Doomguy can manipulate fate and probability on his own is that correct?

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

I am not quite getting your logic here tbh. Why would Doomguy not get a power that is given to him by Davoth? This is like removing all of Immortality 8d because its not the character doing it. Are you implying Davoth made slayer so strong that he won no matter what? If so you need proof of this otherwise we go by the statement alone which is Fate Hax and Probability

I think you made my point basically clear.

Doomguy in the end also kills Davoth does he not? This kinda proves that he basically is strong enough to defeat every other Makyr considering (if we believe Davoth) that he was the original creator and thus is capable of creating someone powerful enough to overthrow every other makyr. Prophesied and Destined might an hyperbole in this case as I explained Doom Slayer isn't literally bound by fate to destroy the makyr, it might just be his will to destroy every demon and makyr he finds on the way.

There's also the unfortunate case of Hayden who is a Makyr but Doomguy doesn't end up killing either way which actually supports my point.

 

[ShionAH]

I think you made my point basically clear.

Doomguy in the end also kills Davoth does he not? This kinda proves that he basically is strong enough to defeat every other Makyr considering (if we believe Davoth) that he was the original creator and thus is capable of creating someone powerful enough to overthrow every other makyr. Prophesied and Destined might an hyperbole in this case as I explained Doom Slayer isn't literally bound by fate to destroy the makyr, it might just be his will to destroy every demon and makyr he finds on the way.

Pretty sure doomguy got some kind of power up before fighting Davoth, we are not gonna upgrade his entire eternal key to Low 1-C lol

Just because he is strong doesnt mean even in infinite timelines he still wins think of it like this Infinite possibilitys means theres also the possibility of Doomguy being weak asf or doomguy being a demon but because of Davoth all of it always comes down to victory for DG

There's also the unfortunate case of Hayden who is a Makyr but Doomguy doesn't end up killing either way which actually supports my point.

I mean the fate wasnt really about killing iirc it was Doomguy destroying the things they worked for which happen

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

Pretty sure doomguy got some kind of power up before fighting Davoth, we are not gonna upgrade his entire eternal key to Low 1-C lol

Just because he is strong doesnt mean even in infinite timelines he still wins think of it like this Infinite possibilitys means theres also the possibility of Doomguy being weak asf or doomguy being a demon but because of Davoth all of it always comes down to victory for DG

I mean the fate wasnt really about killing iirc it was Doomguy destroying the things they worked for which happen

I am pretty sure you're contradicting one major feature that is written within your post

"Among these infinite possibilities, only one constant appears among them, unchanged by the flowing data of endless variability - *that of the prophesied Destroyer - the one who would bring about the destruction of the Maykrs."

You are contradicting the very point you have posted. This statement more so supports the idea that Doomguy is just strong enough to destroy and kill every Makyr and demon in Hell which he does so through his own will and ambitions. The prophecy or destiny might as well be just future prediction as there are characters that can use precognition which might see Doomguy overthrow the Makyr.

 

[ShionAH]

I am pretty sure you're contradicting one major feature that is written within your post

"Among these infinite possibilities, only one constant appears among them, unchanged by the flowing data of endless variability - *that of the prophesied Destroyer - the one who would bring about the destruction of the Maykrs."

You are contradicting the very point you have posted. This statement more so supports the idea that Doomguy is just strong enough to destroy and kill every Makyr and demon in Hell which he does so through his own will and ambitions. The prophecy or destiny might as well be just future prediction as there are characters that can use precognition which might see Doomguy overthrow the Makyr.

I think you dont realize how big infinity is. Theres no way Doomguy wins in infinite possibilitys since that would contradict infinity itself which is the reason it must be a supernatural ability that came from a higher power such as Davoth. Infinite = Doomguy loses at the very least once = If doomguy never lost it means he has hax for this

I will put you on disagree though if you think that way

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

I think you dont realize how big infinity is. Theres no way Doomguy wins in infinite possibilitys since that would contradict infinity itself which is the reason it must be a supernatural ability that came from a higher power such as Davoth. Infinite = Doomguy loses at the very least once = If doomguy never lost it means he has hax for this

That's just mental gymnastics at this point.

Like, lets discard the fact this can be explained by simply saying Doomguy is just that powerful. Fate and Probability manipulation do not change the course of infinity either way. There's as much of a chance of Doomguy defeating the makyr as he has with fate and probability manipulation because Infinity is Infinite in literally every way you put it.

 

[ShionAH]

That's just mental gymnastics at this point.

Like, lets discard the fact this can be explained by simply saying Doomguy is just that powerful.

Infinity would be contracted in this case

Fate and Probability manipulation do not change the course of infinity either way. There's as much of a chance of Doomguy defeating the makyr as he has with fate and probability manipulation because Infinity is Infinite in literally every way you put it.

What? You do know this can just mean it has 2-A range? I already added your vote I hope you change your mind though

 

[Axxtentacle]

Davoth blessed doomguy so he has these

Blessed, Fate Manipulation, Probability Manipulation

Within the infinite conscious-matrix of the all-seeing Maykr God-mind, there exists every potentiality - every predictive variable of possible future timeline - each one known to the Maykr collective with omniscient, inextricable clarity. The God-mind surveys these timelines, watching them form and expand exponentially like fractal patterns in the fabric of existence. Among these infinite possibilities, only one constant appears among them, unchanged by the flowing data of endless variability - that of the prophesied Destroyer - the one who would bring about the destruction of the Maykrs.

Even in infinite possibilitys Doomguy will always win no matter what, his fate changes it to victory and makes his winning probability %100

This isn't super convincing on its own, but it also doesn't mean he 100% wins any fight or altercation immediately. Hell successfully sealed him away for an extremely long period of time post Divinity-Machine which is what would've given him that power anyway.

So, you can list it if you want, but it's not combat applicable and is basically "at some point in the future he will win".

Blessed as a power page should be getting deleted soon, and Probability Manip is unnecessary. It should just be listed as Fate Manipulation if it gets listed.

Davoth and Father, Doomguy HDE mayne

Hell is a mere part of davoth and thats literally HDE. Father who is compared to Davoth is stated to hold the dimensions in his hands

Hell is an extension of Davoth's essence, the non-physical form he's in when he doesn't have a physical form. Davoth is not physically Higher-Dimensional, his essence is, since the whole point of the Primevals is that their Essence requires some kind of vessel in order to actually be able to influence things. Hence, why The Father's essence was able to reside within Samur Maykr's body.

Hell is not an extension of his physical form, just his essence/spiritual form/whatever you wanna call it, hence Jekkad getiing warped into Hell when Davoth got enraged with The Father trying to overthrow him.

Also, the "Hold the dimensions in his hands" just means that he took over the role of being the caretaker of the dimensions. The God, The Creator, whatever, which is the place he took over when he overthrew Davoth and stripped him of his physical body.

Doomguy can physically hold and break spheres of these two who are higher dimensional.

The spheres just contain the essence. They are not Higher-Dimensional physically. There is no interacting with the Higher-Dimensional essence itself.

 

[ShionAH]

This isn't super convincing on its own, but it also doesn't mean he 100% wins any fight or altercation immediately. Hell successfully sealed him away for an extremely long period of time post Divinity-Machine which is what would've given him that power anyway.

So, you can list it if you want, but it's not combat applicable and is basically "at some point in the future he will win".

Disagree with this one since it stops death and permament incap though

Seems like the only counterarguement is "It is flowery langauge" and "Its not their physical body because I said so" with no scans makes me feel like theres actually no counterarguement other than "Well it MIGHT not be HDE"

Will wait for further staff input since DDM already agreed

 

[Axxtentacle]

Disagree with this one since it stops death and permament incap though

Doesn't stop him from getting incap'd long enough to stop fighting. Also, that's not even explicit. He could die and come back.

Seems like the only counterarguement is "It is flowery langauge" and "Its not their physical body because I said so" with no scans makes me feel like theres actually no counterarguement other than "Well it MIGHT not be HDE"

The only thing I said was flowery language was statement about The Father holding the dimensions in his arms, because it clearly is. It's trying to portray The Father as protecting creation from the threat of Davoth, it's not literal. Additionally, The Father is just a powerful Maykr. There's no solid proof saying Maykrs are higher dimensional themselves either. Statements about their technology, how they can traverse the dimensions, but not that.

Nothing else I said was "because I said so", but if you seriously need proof that Hell is connected to Davoth's essence/spirit/whatever and not his physical form, I'll find it.

When Davoth grew enraged at the Father trying to destroy him, it was his rage that twisted Jekkad into Hell. This is the primary evidence for it being an extension of his essence.

When Davoth and The Father had their final battle, The Father ripped out his life sphere, destroying his physical form. If Hell was an extension of his physical form, and not his essence, Hell wouldn't have stayed alive and active, because Davoth wouldn't get another physical form till TAG.

Additionally, The Father literally says without his Essence he's nothing but a useless influence. Literally word for word says that it's his Essence that would restore his full faculties, despite this only being his mind in Vega, proving the physical form isn't the important part. It's the essence.

The power is their essence, because Samur Maykr absorbs The Father's essence and gains his power, as showcased by the energy still visibly coming off of him, which he shows by exercising control over Urdak, yet again showcasing the higher-dimensional part of it is the essence. Samur Maykr isn't a physically Higher-Dimensional being, we've seen him physically interact with humans and it's never even implied that it's some lower-dimensional avatar or whatever else, but he still had the powers of The Father.

 

[ShionAH]

Doesn't stop him from getting incap'd long enough to stop fighting. Also, that's not even explicit. He could die and come back.

He has never shown to do that, fate hax makes him impossible to kill so they try to incap him

The only thing I said was flowery language was statement about The Father holding the dimensions in his arms, because it clearly is. It's trying to portray The Father as protecting creation from the threat of Davoth, it's not literal. Additionally, The Father is just a powerful Maykr. There's no solid proof saying Maykrs are higher dimensional themselves either. Statements about their technology, how they can traverse the dimensions, but not that.

Agree to disagree, you are looking to deep into a straightforward quote that shows how superior Father and Davoth is to rest of the verse.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Agree FRB

 

[Axxtentacle]

He has never shown to do that, fate hax makes him impossible to kill so they try to incap him

Fate hax like that doesn't make you impossible to kill. Just means you'll somehow come back and win anyway at some indeterminate point in the future.

Agree to disagree, you are looking to deep into a straightforward quote that shows how superior Father and Davoth is to rest of the verse.

Yeah, no. There's no "agree to disagree" here, since The Father is just another Primeval. Before he overthrew Davoth he was just another one of the Primevals, because the Primevals are the class of deities Davoth and The Father belong to.

We've seen The Father's physical form represented as a humanoid figure around Samur in size in the art depicting him defeating Davoth. The Primevals do not have any ability to change their physical size, so the statement HAS to be non-literal, because he's physically comparable to a human being in size.

It isn't straightforward, and this is just an attempt at oversimplification of a clearly flowery text instead of trying to decipher the ACTUAL meaning of the flowery text.

There is no "agree to disagree" when you're just provably wrong, and a further attempt at that is just stonewalling.

Ask for proof, try to argue against me, whatever else. "Agree to disagree" can't happen at this point in the debate, because you can't just dismiss my points and evidence with "no I don't think so".

 

[ShionAH]

Yeah, no. There's no "agree to disagree" here, since The Father is just another Primeval. Before he overthrew Davoth he was just another one of the Primevals, because the Primevals are the class of deities Davoth and The Father belong to.

We've seen The Father's physical form represented as a humanoid figure around Samur in size in the art depicting him defeating Davoth. The Primevals do not have any ability to change their physical size, so the statement HAS to be non-literal, because he's physically comparable to a human being in size.

It isn't straightforward, and this is just an attempt at oversimplification of a clearly flowery text instead of trying to decipher the ACTUAL meaning of the flowery text.

There is no "agree to disagree" when you're just provably wrong, and a further attempt at that is just stonewalling.

Ask for proof, try to argue against me, whatever else. "Agree to disagree" can't happen at this point in the debate, because you can't just dismiss my points and evidence with "no I don't think so".

Your points in Father evidence is literally “I think its flowery language” Its impossible to argue against because its your point of view and its your opinion. Idk what the **** you want me to do.

I already answered the Human size which shows you didnt even read anything

 

[Axxtentacle]

Your points in Father evidence is literally “I think its flowery language” Its impossible to argue against because its your point of view and its your opinion. Idk what the **** you want me to do.

It's literally not "I think". It just is. The Father is portrayed as tall compared to Samur Maykr, and is a Maykr on his own.

I mean, hell, the VEGA computer isn't physically higher dimensional but The Father believed if he got his Essence from it he could be restored to his full faculties again, despite being VEGA physically. I shouldn't have to repeat my points.

I already answered the Human size which shows you didnt even read anything

I'm not arguing based off of gameplay, though. Canonically he was just a Maykr, and is portrayed as relatively tall compared to Samur Maykr in the art where he defeats Davoth.

I would agree with the gameplay limitations argument if there wasn't proving that's literally how it is within the verse. The Primevals are omnipresent in their Presence form, and are mostly powerless without a body, and the body isn't ever required to be higher-dimensional because Samur isn't but The Father's essence was able to reside within it. The Essence that is the presence form IS the higher-dimensional shit, NOT their physical bodies. The physical bodies are more like crucibles used to channel that power.

I've read what you've said. It's just incorrect, so I'm telling you how it's incorrect instead of making dumb arguments like Vietthai did.

 

[ShionAH]

It's literally not "I think". It just is. The Father is portrayed as tall compared to Samur Maykr, and is a Maykr on his own.

I mean, hell, the VEGA computer isn't physically higher dimensional but The Father believed if he got his Essence from it he could be restored to his full faculties again, despite being VEGA physically. I shouldn't have to repeat my points.

I'm not arguing based off of gameplay, though. Canonically he was just a Maykr, and is portrayed as relatively tall compared to Samur Maykr in the art where he defeats Davoth.

I would agree with the gameplay limitations argument if there wasn't proving that's literally how it is within the verse. The Primevals are omnipresent in their Presence form, and are mostly powerless without a body, and the body isn't ever required to be higher-dimensional because Samur isn't but The Father's essence was able to reside within it. The Essence that is the presence form IS the higher-dimensional shit, NOT their physical bodies. The physical bodies are more like crucibles used to channel that power.

I've read what you've said. It's just incorrect, so I'm telling you how it's incorrect instead of making dumb arguments like Vietthai did.

You wanted humans to draw Fathers appearance perfectly? Your argument doesnt really prove anything and its just your opinion of the quotes. Stop acting like everything you say is facts

Idc I will wait for staff opinion.

 

[Axxtentacle]

You wanted humans to draw Fathers appearance perfectly? Your argument doesnt really prove anything and its just your opinion of the quotes. Stop acting like everything you say is facts

It wasn't humans. It was the Maykrs' own texts. It's the Maykrs' stories, they're just translated by humans. The art is the art of the Maykrs. The Maykrs themselves portrayed him as a tall humanoid figure, because that's what he is. A tall humanoid figure.

Literally look at the codex. They state what they're translated from, and the images are from the thing they translated it from.

Idc I will wait for staff opinion.

Stonewalling.

 

[Axxtentacle]

You can't just say "it's just your opinion" and then not respond to any evidence or arguments I bring up. The entire point of these CRTs is to present your opinion and attempt to prove that it's the correct opinion.

That's by definition stonewalling. If it continues then I'm probably just gonna have to take it to a staff member.

 

[ShionAH]

You can't just say "it's just your opinion" and then not respond to any evidence or arguments I bring up. The entire point of these CRTs is to present your opinion and attempt to prove that it's the correct opinion.

That's by definition stonewalling. If it continues then I'm probably just gonna have to take it to a staff member.

I am waiting for staffs opinion because I already presented my argument. You did too so we will wait for staff. What the **** do you want me to do? Go back and forth for 2 hours? Go outside and breath some air

I think the quotes are enough for HDE, you don’t. Thats all

 

[Axxtentacle]

I am waiting for staffs opinion because I already presented my argument. You did too so we will wait for staff. What the **** do you want me to do? Go back and forth for 2 hours? Go outside and breath some air

I think the quotes are enough for HDE, you don’t. Thats all

Because presenting an argument isn't enough. You have to actually acknowledge all the scans in play, yours AND the ones your opponent uses. I've brought up new scans you didn't have, so you can't just say "well I think these scans prove (X)".

 

[ShionAH]

Because presenting an argument isn't enough. You have to actually acknowledge all the scans in play, yours AND the ones your opponent uses. I've brought up new scans you didn't have, so you can't just say "well I think these scans prove (X)".

I care about the hax part more than the HDE and I cannot actually answer because its a busy week, I will respond later since you really want it but I am not gonna go back in forth like you so crave to do

 

[ShionAH]

I am busy for some time so I will just ask this to be closed and add the accepted part.