DOOM - Quad Damage

[Firestorm808]

Proposal​

Doom Slayer gets a permanent 4x power-up with every quad damage.

Quad Damage​

UAC REPORT FILE: S4381XYR
Once ingested, the subject effectively becomes a host for what was presumed to be the most powerful of UI-Thranx demons. Any weapon held by the subject is enhanced, giving them up to four times as much projectile force and ballistic power. Though the effects are short lived, they can be devastating. During the initial testing phase, patient C-132 (a volunteer Tier 2 advocate) managed to decapitate three security personnel using nothing more than a pocket knife.

The multiplier is not generic damage.

Game Director and Community Manager​

Hugo says that the 4x multipliers permanently stacks in the lore and that it's just game balance that makes it temporary for the Slayer.

Doom Slayer absorbs the UI-Thranx demon's power, not hosts it. It's temporary for normal humans because they become temporary hosts. The presence of this permanent multiplier also explains how the Doom Slayer got strong enough to destroy the Icon of Sin and others.

Final AP Scaling​

Doom Slayer gets 11 Quad Damages in Doom 2016 and 4 in the main Eternal story.

Argent Tower Explosion Feat = 4.2616919112e+13 J = 7-C

Endgame 2016 Doom Slayer = 1.787483143e+20 = 6-C

Endgame Eternal Doom Slayer = At least 4.5759568461e+22 = At least 6-B

Scaling Chains​

Other affected characters include the Spider Mastermind, Kahn Maykr, Eternal Icon, and some other Bosses.

@Jared1111
@DarkDragonMedeus
@Colonel_Krukov

What are your thoughts?

 

[Jared1111]

This all seems fine to me, especially since it specifies that ballistic power is itself stacked alongside Doomguy himself. Pretty clear increase of damage/AP.

(Also there’s only 4 Quad Damages in Eternal? They really were stingy with powerups in that game)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Not an expert on the verse, but the (presumably in-game) excerpt on quad damage says the effects are short lived, which would contradict the WoG stuff. Do we not usually give in-game lore precedent in cases like this?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Personally, I'd go with a likely or possibly rating when WoG is all that's really used for this

 

[Jared1111]

Not an expert on the verse, but the (presumably in-game) excerpt on quad damage says the effects are short lived, which would contradict the WoG stuff. Do we not usually give in-game lore precedent in cases like this?

The in game lore specifies the effects on humans when they become the “host” of the demons themselves. It doesn’t have the knowledge of what it would do to Doomguy who absorbed the demon itself, so Hugo isn’t contradicting the logs since those are applied to what the UAC has studied.

 

[Jared1111]

For example the berserk pack is described as such

UAC REPORT FILE: D4NUVHA0

Test subjects exposed to this sphere exhibit extreme rage and increased strength. It has been noted that subjects given the Berserk sphere will vent their rage on any living creature they can find, and will even self-harm if they have no outlet for their fury. In the extremely rare case that a subject survives exposure, they will be left in a perpetual state of delirium and should be exterminated.

Despite that, the Slayer uses many throughout the game and it isn’t put into an uncontrollable rage inflicting self harm, nor does it destroy his mind, in or out of gameplay. So UAC logs wouldn’t directly contradict what the game director is saying because they don’t have omniscient knowledge on how powerups work.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ngl looking at that clip it feels a little like a VS bait question :v

The in game lore specifies the effects on humans when they become the “host” of the demons themselves. It doesn’t have the knowledge of what it would do to Doomguy who absorbed the demon itself, so Hugo isn’t contradicting the logs since those are applied to what the UAC has studied.

For example the berserk pack is described as such

UAC REPORT FILE: D4NUVHA0

Test subjects exposed to this sphere exhibit extreme rage and increased strength. It has been noted that subjects given the Berserk sphere will vent their rage on any living creature they can find, and will even self-harm if they have no outlet for their fury. In the extremely rare case that a subject survives exposure, they will be left in a perpetual state of delirium and should be exterminated.

Despite that, the Slayer uses many throughout the game and it isn’t put into an uncontrollable rage inflicting self harm, nor does it destroy his mind, in or out of gameplay. So UAC logs wouldn’t directly contradict what the game director is saying because they don’t have omniscient knowledge on how powerups work.

These are fair points, but I don't think we should just assume that Doomguy always handles these powerups better than some random guy. I'd be much more comfortable with these ratings being listed as possibly or likely.

 

[Keeweed]

Doesn’t slayer get his tier from external sources rather than himself? I feel like this should a scenario like this guy were he’s just weaker before the power up rather than stronger.

 

[Jared1111]

These are fair points, but I don't think we should just assume that Doomguy always handles these powerups better than some random guy. I'd be much more comfortable with these ratings being listed as possibly or likely.

I mean... why wouldn't we? In lore Doomguy is at this point a literal demi-god blessed with the power of the Divinity Machine and has battled hell for eons and survived encounters in places and with beings that would drive any normal human, even the ones in universe, to total annihilation in every conceivable way.

Even within the game, his body is able to absorb a 30,000 MWH battery without little if any effort. I think him being affected by the powerups differently, especially when its outright confirmed by the guy whose pretty much the lore master of the game itself, it totally fine.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Doomguy is definitely above some random guy.

I think the scan should be okay to use with a "possibly" rating since the only source is WoG

 

[Firestorm808]

Doomguy is definitely above some random guy.

I think the scan should be okay to use with a "possibly" rating since the only source is WoG

Thanks for your input.

Regarding Doom Slayer, we are told in the Codex "For he alone could draw strength from his fallen foes, and ever his power grew, swift and unrelenting."

Hugo expands upon this, saying that the quad powerups apply permanently too. They all come from the same energy source, demons and demonic energy.

 

[Jared1111]

I agree, Hugo really only seems to be expanding on what is already known in the game so its not like a WoG that's bringing up some irrelevant fact that contradicts anything in the game or lore. the UAC logs are fallible as mentioned before, and are only supposed to be seen through the eyes of the scientists studying the effects of the powerups on augmented or even totally normal humans.

The Codex/Slayers Testaments as @Firestorm808 quoted are directly from demon history, who have eons of information on the Slayer and would know things about him that no Alternate Earth Scientist could surmise. So if the demons mentions how his power is directly absorbed through his enemies and powerups, then they supercede anything the UAC would think on the matter.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright for Doomguy for sure. For the bosses, the Titan would also be effected by this yes?

 

[Firestorm808]

Looks alright for Doomguy for sure. For the bosses, the Titan would also be effected by this yes?

Thanks for the input.

Which Titan?

 

[Jared1111]

At the very least the Icon of Sun definitely scales

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

At the very least the Icon of Sun definitely scales

 

[Jared1111]

It’s a SIN that I can’t spell

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Shouldn't Icon be Low 2-C via UES?

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Shouldn't Icon be Low 2-C via UES?

If I remember correctly they would expand on there own and destroy the universe independent of him

 

[Jared1111]

Shouldn't Icon be Low 2-C via UES?

The argument against is that the destruction of the Universe would have happened over time, so its hard to quantify how strong he would have been in his fight against Doomguy.

I wouldn't say its completely out of the question, because again Doomguy scales all the way to Low 1-C by the time he fights Davoth, but in context the feat itself can't really apply to AP by the wiki's standards.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Overtime doesn't matter for Tier 2 iirc

 

[Abstractions]

Hugo says that the 4x multipliers permanently stacks in the lore and that it's just game balance that makes it temporary for the Slayer.

Okay, except that isn't actually what he said? He response to the general question of "does he absorb strength from fallen enemies?" was "Yeah yeah. . . I think he does."

It was Joshua who started referring to the game mechanics aspect and balance anyway, not Hugo himself. He may have given a half-attentive affirmation to this but how it functions in gameplay doesn't exactly narratively break from the lore of the Quad Damage itself or the idea Doomguy absorbs strength. He can do that and still have the Quad effect not be a permanent buff.

To then take that and then multiply his strength value by every possible instance of Quad Damage in the game doesn't sit right with me, sorry.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Okay, except that isn't actually what he said? He response to the general question of "does he absorb strength from fallen enemies?" was "Yeah yeah. . . I think he does."

It was Joshua who started referring to the game mechanics aspect and balance anyway, not Hugo himself. He may have given a half-attentive affirmation to this but how it functions in gameplay doesn't exactly narratively break from the lore of the Quad Damage itself or the idea Doomguy absorbs strength. He can do that and still have the Quad effect not be a permanent buff.

To then take that and then multiply his strength value by every possible instance of Quad Damage in the game doesn't sit right with me, sorry.

Yeah, I had my doubts. Would have been fine if Quad Damage specifically referred to energy output of all their attacks, but it seems to be about game mechanics.

Though I will wait for Firestorm to respond.

 

[Firestorm808]

Yeah, I had my doubts. Would have been fine if Quad Damage specifically referred to energy output of all their attacks, but it seems to be about game mechanics.

Though I will wait for Firestorm to respond.

Quad Damage specifically refers to multiplying projectile force and ballistic power, not generic game mechanic damage.

 

[Firestorm808]

Okay, except that isn't actually what he said? He response to the general question of "does he absorb strength from fallen enemies?" was "Yeah yeah. . . I think he does."

It was Joshua who started referring to the game mechanics aspect and balance anyway, not Hugo himself. He may have given a half-attentive affirmation to this but how it functions in gameplay doesn't exactly narratively break from the lore of the Quad Damage itself or the idea Doomguy absorbs strength. He can do that and still have the Quad effect not be a permanent buff.

To then take that and then multiply his strength value by every possible instance of Quad Damage in the game doesn't sit right with me, sorry.

The question given starts off with:

So we know the Slayer can absorb strength from his fallen enemies. So, has he absorbed the ability to empower his weapons from the 2016 quad damage demon [UI-Thranx] and does he use his ability at will so he can use his arsenal to fight ridiculous strong bosses?

It makes no sense for Hugo and Joshua to just answer back "Yes" to the first thing the viewer said they already know.

Joshua even refers back to quad damage to re-affirm the topic of this lasting multiplying power in the lore. That they don't show this effect in-game because of balance. The answer is used to explain how he passively amps because of the nature of Quad Damage.

Joshua: Right. But you got to balance the game, right. You can't just be like, this is quad, that's quad, this is quad, thank you for all the energy
Hugo: Exactly.

 

[Abstractions]

I'm going to more or less say we should keep to the lore on the subject instead of breaking it on what's being brushed off as game balance in hindsight. Doomguy growing stronger over a course of time and absorbing powers can exist independently of the idea that Quad Damage can be taken in permanently and stack when it's been pre-established to not last.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm going to more or less say we should keep to the lore on the subject instead of breaking it on what's being brushed off as game balance in hindsight.

I don't follow how you suggest the lore is being broken. They are elaborating on Doom Slayer's passive amps to fight the god tiers.

 

[Abstractions]

I don't follow how you suggest the lore is being broken. They are elaborating on Doom Slayer's passive amps to fight the god tiers

By breaking what's pre-established about Quad Damage and how it functions both in lore and in-game. I did say this.

 

[Firestorm808]

By breaking what's pre-established about Quad Damage and how it functions both in lore and in-game. I did say this.

A regular human as a temporary host to a demon is different from the Doom Slayer absorbing that demon.

Doom Slayer does not become a temporary host to a demon.

 

[Abstractions]

A regular human as a temporary host to a demon is different from the Doom Slayer absorbing that demon.

Doom Slayer does not become a temporary host to a demon.

And yet the functionality of the Doom Slayer using it compared to a regular person is still the same: weapons are enhanced up to four times their normal ability and the effects eventually dwindle after a period of time.

You're attempting to attach this idea that them being different in this one way suddenly changes everything about how it works when it doesn't do that.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm connecting the nature of Doom Slayer's absorption to the interview.

The two agree in the lore that the Quad Damages would add up.

In the Codex, for regular humans, this amp is temporary as they are temporary hosts. They would lose this power when the demon leaves them. Nothing is said about its effect on the Slayer.

For Quad to add up in the Doom Slayer as the two men suggest, we need to have a reason why the Doom Slayer is different from the human subject to keep this power, and we do. The Doom Slayer absorbs the demon and its power, not become a host to it. He continually gets stronger from this absorption. There is no more demon to leave.

This culmination for the Slayer by the two doesn't contradict the Codex.

Game balance is why they agree they don't make this lore result apparent in gameplay, like permanently one-shotting demons for the rest of the game.

 

[Firestorm808]

Human A is possessed by a ghost. He gains X Strength. When the ghost finally leaves his body, he loses the strength.

Human B is able to usurp this ghost and add it to his own power, still gaining X Strength.