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Doom Eternal Revision Thread Part 4

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and since then we actually got a better feat of that iron block punch in the dlc in the bloodswamps where doomguy punches the same block except over around 30-40 meters in at about 3 secs
 
No. You're squaring the entire equation there. Only square the Velocity giving:
0.5 * 211869 * 9.39130434783^2 = 9,343,062.44235 Joules, or 0.00223 Tons of TNT, Wall level...
 
I should have just left it at High 8-C and hoped it got through the calc group...

Why is everything we throw at him tier 9...
 
Fairs.
Doom may well have the weakest Low 1-Cs on the site tho...
But still. Tier 1 Doomguy!
 
Again laugh if he’s Tier 9 but has a Tier 1 weapon

But yeah I think some new calls are a good idea. You could probably do something with his box smack in the DLC and he pretty easily pulverises walls

I also recall in ARC Complex we see fodder like Imps and Revenants smash through steel and stone walls so that could help

Marauder and Mancubus are
Really good for Thor if you count the Slayer Gates as canon
 
We'll likely have a couple tier 8 feats somewhere in the games, and there's a huge amount of tier 9 as we've already proven. But the tier 7 days aren't coming back...
 
Aye

I think that explosion at the oil rig could be good to calf if we see how much of the explosion we were hit by

Id also recommend looking at 2016 since even if we get Eternal back to Tier 8 it only applies there
 
Hellbeast said:
Blood temple was the Testaments from 2016

The Priests sealed him away after getting him in the Temple and dropping it on his head
Click to expand...
That blood temple is a clear PIS and we have nothing to calc so we can’t use it either way. We have him no selling the 7-C ion catapult, tanking the 7-B argent explosion and eating up the 7-C argent cells. Doesn’t matter if is suit just absorbs it, Samuel gave it to him for the specific purpose of increasing his power so it scales to him. This is also reinforced by the fact that he absorbs the energy from fallen demons and that also proves that he scales to the titan.
 
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The Ion Catapult was using specifically designed shells when firing at asteroids, if it were using that same power when it shot the Slayer, there would be a huge explosion when he crashed through the wall, instead that impact looks no higher than tier 9.

The Absorption isn't a dura feat in any way. He isn't tanking a 7-C attack or explosion.

and the Argent Tower was never shown in its full extent, and we don't know how much of it the Slayer tanked.
 
@MrKingOfNegativity
Ok so let’s just do a quick recap of events from the urdak mission.

Slayer arrives stab the heart, unleashes the icon. Icon breaks the seal setting urdak off to its demise. We see weather changes in the atmosphere.

Demons start teleporting in the khan makyr couldn’t stop it but that does not scale to her AP, preventing a teleport is hax.

Slayer kills the khan makyr sounds off on how his actions threaten creation as soon as she dies and he orb erupts in the sky, 6 seconds later ok sure, the area starts to shake apart.


How can we assume anything but the fact that she was the actively preventing that fall apart from happening.
 
KieranH10 said:
The Ion Catapult was using specifically designed shells when firing at asteroids, if it were using that same power when it shot the Slayer, there would be a huge explosion when he crashed through the wall, instead that impact looks no higher than tier 9.

The Absorption isn't a dura feat in any way. He isn't tanking a 7-C attack or explosion.

and the Argent Tower was never shown in its full extent, and we don't know how much of it the Slayer tanked.
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The 7-C calc took into account the power required to travel that velocity on top of the concrete wall impact.

I’m not saying it’s a dura feat I’m saying it’s a AP feat, Samuel gave doomguy the argent cells with the specific intent of helping him increase his power. We know he gets stronger by absorbing argent energy from demons.

We calculated the full extent of the explosion but sure let’s put the inverse square law on it I’m sure it would come out to a 7-C.
 
Please please let’s not forget that doomguy is constantly getting stronger by absorbing argent energy from fallen demons. Which would include the titans and the icon of sin.
 
It’s also a huge head canon reach to assume that doomguy just happened to have found a crucible to kill the 2016 titan. Especially since Samuel had to tell doomguy exactly where to go to get the hell crucible, he teleported doomguy in and out of that crucible mission. Doomguy never knew about any crucible being in hell.
 
DTG499 said:
That blood temple is a clear PIS and we have nothing to calc so we can’t use it either way. We have him no selling the 7-C ion catapult, tanking the 7-B argent explosion and eating up the 7-C argent cells. Doesn’t matter if is suit just absorbs it, Samuel gave it to him for the specific purpose of increasing his power so it scales to him. This is also reinforced by the fact that he absorbs the energy from fallen demons and that also proves that he scales to the titan.
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How Is it PIS. We’ve already established Slayer’s feats are debunked and it’s way too significant a plot point to write off

I’m also ignoring your later points since me and King already debunked you

Unless you come up with something new I got nothing
 
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The argument is still on going. You have yet to tackle the points i just listed above. You and King’s reasoning is jhead canon that make no sense when in the context of the sequencing of the story.

Assuming that the slayer just found a random crucible is nonsense and even more ridiculous that you take this priority over the dev’s statement of him beating the titan with his bare hands. You assume this because of what again? “those who tasted the bite of his sword” statement? That is clearly a metaphor explaining that all the demons who survived the doomguy holocaust started spreading the word about him. No demon would be able to even touch the crucible without dying so clearly not the case.

You also assume the argent energy cells serve absolutely no purpose for the slayer and that Samuel just gave it to him for no reason at all.

You also assume that urdak starting to crumble after the Kahn makyr’s death is just pure coincidence, that is nonsense.

You also conveniently left out the fact that the ion catapult feat took into account the joule out out required to propel DG at that speed.

Even IF doomguy didn’t kill the titan with his bare hands like the creator of the game stated, he still absorbs the titans power when he killed it.

I’ve also seen absolute zero solid points about why we shouldn’t scale the argent tower explosion to him.

We cannot calculate the temple falling on him either way, so why are we using it?
 
Also announcing that you debunked someone a lazy childish way of trying to end a discussion. We all lose debates on this website but when I lose I need to have an understanding of why. King is able to articulate that effectively without needing to announce that he debunked you, a true debunk is when the person admits that they are debunked. I’m going to be waiting until he shows up.
 
Sir_sun_man said:
ok about the titan champ
what crucible would he use? we know that the only available one was the demonic crusible and he didn't use it, its blade is still in the crucible handle which we know for a fact would not be the case if he used it
Click to expand...
It's also been an inordinate amount of time since he used it, and unlike the Slayer's own Crucible, the Demonic Crucible is not untouched after all of those years. If it was used by the Slayer, any number of things could have happened with it between the Slayer's defeat and the events of DOOM 2016.
plus the titan champ doesn't actually have the blade in it anywhere meaning it isn't sealed
Click to expand...
I only have a Doylist explanation for this one; the major plot point of "the Crucibles are the only thing capable of neutralizing Titans" wasn't written during DOOM 2016's development. They wrote it years later without remembering the very minute detail that the Titan's Realm stage doesn't feature a glowing red blade anywhere in the Titan's decayed corpse.

Of course, if you want to look at it from an in-universe/Watsonian perspective, then it doesn't help that the demons seem to have turned its remains into a temple. Which, as far as I am aware, isn't something a Titan has evidence of being able to survive even with its immortality. We have no way of knowing what happened leading up to that, but it's still a sign that there are other factors at play.
ageing just assuming that doomguy conviniently found a random crucible out in the middle of nowhere and it just so happened to vanish over the years without the titan rasing up is somehow less head canon then doomguy beating it to a point where it can't resurrect(when even the voice of god aka hugo says that slayer is above a titan when it comes to pure power)
Click to expand...
  1. I'm not necessarily saying he found "a random Crucible in the middle of nowhere", and if that's really what you've gotten out of my argument, then you should read it again, more carefully.
  2. The same Voice of God has also allegedly stated that the BFG somehow doesn't work the way it's stated to in both games. We shouldn't be taking such a word as an objective truth if what we see in the games doesn't match up with it.
We know for a fact that, as stated within the games, Atlan weaponry and Crucible blades are the only things available to the Slayer and the Sentinels that can permanently neutralize a Titan. We know for a fact that the Slayer was wielding a sword in his rampage during the First Age. We know for a fact that the Crucible the Slayer used during the Sentinels' war against Hell isn't the only one in existence. We know for a fact that the Slayer defeated the Great One.

What we don't know for a fact is how he defeated the Great One, or whether or not he's truly capable of beating up Titans with his bare fists. It would be one thing if we were to actually see him do anything physical to a Titan in either of the games (doubly so for Eternal, since there was ample opportunity for the developers to feature something like that), but he never physically, barehandedly interacts with a Titan at any point in the series.

Answer me this, since we're going to delve into "why didn't X happen?" and "why isn't X the case?" scenarios. Why did the Slayer need his Crucible blade to defeat the Icon of Sin if he can beat up and kill the strongest Titans in existence with his bare hands and nothing else? If the Slayer has physical prowess on-par with the Icon, or even the physical prowess to kill the Great One barehanded, why didn't he simply beat the final boss to death with his fists and be done with it?

Moreover, why does Hayden (who turns out to be the Seraphim, A.K.A. a witness to the Slayer's actions over the course of history) state to him that a Crucible blade is the only thing left that can neutralize a Titan? Why would someone who bore witness to the Slayer's actions be convinced of that fact if one of the Slayer's actions involved slapping around a Titan with his bare hands?
DTG499 said:
Slayer arrives stab the heart, unleashes the icon. Icon breaks the seal setting urdak off to its demise. We see weather changes in the atmosphere.
Click to expand...
Correct.
Demons start teleporting in the khan makyr couldn’t stop it but that does not scale to her AP, preventing a teleport is hax.
Click to expand...
She has control over teleportation, as evidenced by the fact that she repeatedly transports the Hell Priests away from the Slayer at plot-convenient points in the story. It's a part of her powerset, which is extra evidence against her being able to do anything against the forces of Hell once the seal is broken, as even the weakest of demons start showing up in Urdak without her being able to stop them.

Not that this part is relevant in the grander scheme of things, but still.
Slayer kills the khan makyr sounds off on how his actions threaten creation as soon as she dies
Click to expand...
Yes. The Slayer's actions of releasing a possibly world-killing Titan into the human world, whose mere presence may eventually generate a singularity which drags the universe into Hell (as stated within the game itself), have threatened all of creation.
and he orb erupts in the sky 6 seconds later ok sure, the area starts to shake apart.
Click to expand...
It doesn't. The camera and possibly the ground shake when the "Mysterious Voice" yells out in despair, and that shaking actually stops shortly after the voice does. The only things that persist after the voice is done yelling are the red sky and the occasional lightning strikes that hit the ground.
How can we assume anything but the fact that she was the actively preventing that fall apart from happening.
Click to expand...
Simple. By recognizing that the "fall apart" never actually happened to begin with, and that she wasn't able to prevent even the most minute changes in the atmosphere beforehand anyway.

Which, no, Urdak never fell apart the way you're describing. It still exists. It's simply occupied and corrupted by the forces of Hell now. This is outright stated at the beginning of The Ancient Gods, Part I.

Also, I missed this the first time, but...
MicDaniel said:
The Slayer Doesn't Care for Politics. That doesn't mean he doesn't respect the Sentinels Code of honor. The Art book suggest that he does believe in some of their traditions.
Click to expand...
This doesn't seem like it's putting emphasis on the Slayer's personal honor at all. It appears to be more of a background explanation regarding the Crucible and a summary of events than an outright statement of the Slayer being bound by the same morals as the Sentinels.

Meanwhile, in the game itself, he shot Deag Grav in the face on Sentinel holy ground. He did this with full knowledge that spilling Grav's blood in that place was a direct violation of the Sentinels' code, and that doing so would earn him their immediate hostility. It seems to me that actions speak louder than words in this case. He doesn't care about Sentinel ways if they come between him and whatever he's trying to accomplish.
 
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good points all around but here are a few issues with them
1: The demonic crucible was not in the slayers possession for 1 reason, if it was he would've freed the wraiths before the events of 2016 there are no lore reasons for the slayer to not use the demonic crucible to free the wraiths meaning that he did not have the demonic cruicible in his possesion unless we want to invoke the its for the plot rule which would be rather boring and could be used for your point of the slayer not being able to "kill" the icon without the crucible blade.
2. The plot specifies something before we fight the icon that being only the slayers crucible sword is capable of sealing a titan if every other crucible weapon could seal a titan like the slayers blade we could just use the marauders axe or some other crucible weaponry(which is quite abundunt on argent danur) but we don't we need the slayers blade specificly and it makes me question if the demonic crucible can seal a titan like the slayers crucible, even in the codex entrie for sentinal hystory his blade was described as blazing with wraith fire that only a true sentinal warrior king could summon.
3. Heres another problem with the crucible weapons and titans, in exultia we see multiple dead titans which didn't have a crucible weapon of any kind stuck in them but they still remained dead and we know that they have been that way for a while since the sentials that where traped in hell where trapped there along side the doomslayer eons ago but they still remain dead which leads me to question if all titans have the type 4 immortality some can simingly be killed by desmemborment(ageing seen in exultia) and that lead to another queastion that being if the titan champ had that immortality.
4. While i agree that athur statements can sometimes be wrong(hugo and the bfg) that doesn't mean we can just take them all and hand wave them away nothing really contradicts the slayer being able to harm them with his physical abilities hell the lore in both games implies that he can. Hell the fight with the titan champion was describe as a mighty battle "But from the depths of the abyss rose The Great One, a champion mightier than all who had come before. The Titan of immeasurable power and ferocity. He strode upon the plain and faced the Doom Slayer — and a mighty battle was fought on the desolate plains . . . The Titan fought with the fury of the countless that had fallen at the Doom Slayer's hand, but there fell the Titan, and in his defeat the shadow horde were routed" unless we want to say that the doomslayer completely foddarized the titan and avoided every blow(which would go ageinst it being a fiearce battle) doomslayer must've taken at least one or two attacks from the titan and surivived which would mean that he has multi city block levels of dura
5. we don't really know if the camp was the strongest titan hell we don't know if icon is we see that massive titan in the ancinet gods that towers over both of them being able to reach mountain tops
 
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Sir_sun_man said:
1: The demonic crucible was not in the slayers possession for 1 reason, if it was he would've freed the wraiths before the events of 2016 there are no lore reasons for the slayer to not use the demonic crucible to free the wraiths meaning that he did not have the demonic cruicible in his possesion unless we want to invoke the its for the plot rule which would be rather boring and could be used for your point of the slayer not being able to "kill" the icon without the crucible blade.
Click to expand...
It's made clear that the Slayer has no knowledge of how the Crucible could have been used to free the Wraiths and shut down the Well until the events of the 2016 game take place.


In fact, knowledge of the Well itself wasn't something the Slayer had until Hayden told him about it:



Hayden being the Seraphim and all, I highly doubt he would have told the Slayer any of this if the Slayer already knew about it beforehand.

Even then, freeing the Wraiths was never his main objective to begin with. The only reason he did that was because the act of such would ultimately shut down the portal between Mars and Hell. There's no indication that he had any other reason to do so.
2. The plot specifies something before we fight the icon that being only the slayers crucible sword is capable of sealing a titan if every other crucible weapon could seal a titan like the slayers blade we could just use the marauders axe or some other crucible weaponry(which is quite abundunt on argent danur) but we don't we need the slayers blade specificly and it makes me question if the demonic crucible can seal a titan like the slayers crucible, even in the codex entrie for sentinal hystory his blade was described as blazing with wraith fire that only a true sentinal warrior king could summon.
Click to expand...
Since when are Marauders' axes and other Argent Energy weapons confirmed to be Crucibles of their own? Are you basing that on their appearance?

If so, DOOM Eternal's Codex contradicts that conclusion directly:
A sacred relic of the Sentinel People, the Crucible remains one of the most mysterious artifacts known to man. Texts from Argent D'Nur reference the weapon in a revered, righteous manner; while Night Sentinels were known to employ similar energy-based blades in their armaments, the Crucible remains the only one powerful enough to reportedly slay titan-class demons.

Only the Slayer holds knowledge of this venerated sword, for only he has been known to wield it. The blade burns with ethereal heat, immediately cauterizing flesh as it slices through.
Click to expand...
There may be multiple Crucible weapons in the setting, but from what the lore suggests, the Slayer is the only being known to have ever actually wield one.

3. Heres another problem with the crucible weapons and titans, in exultia we see multiple dead titans which didn't have a crucible weapon of any kind stuck in them but they still remained dead and we know that they have been that way for a while since the sentials that where traped in hell where trapped there along side the doomslayer eons ago but they still remain dead which leads me to question if all titans have the type 4 immortality some can simingly be killed by desmemborment(ageing seen in exultia) and that lead to another queastion that being if the titan champ had that immortality.
Click to expand...
This seems like a self-defeating series of points, but I'll address them anyway.

Exultia as we see it in the present also has several of the Sentinels' Atlans all over. Evidence clearly suggests that the Atlans were capable of harming and killing the Titans through some means, as the History of the Sentinels entries speak of them beating back Titans and we even see multiple Atlans with their spears piercing the chests of dead Titans.

When Hayden states that the Crucible is the only thing that can kill a Titan, he's saying so long after the Sentinels' Atlans have ceased to be a thing. The Crucibles are something the Slayer can just pick up from wherever they're located in the present. The Atlans stopped functioning a long time ago.

Given the evidence you yourself have brought up (in conjunction with the above), the most likely implication is that Titans can be killed physically, but the Atlans and the Crucibles were/are the only things available to the Makyrs and the Sentinels with enough power to do so.

4. While i agree that athur statements can sometimes be wrong(hugo and the bfg) that doesn't mean we can just take them all and hand wave them away nothing really contradicts the slayer being able to harm them with his physical abilities hell the lore in both games implies that he can. Hell the fight with the titan champion was describe as a mighty battle "But from the depths of the abyss rose The Great One, a champion mightier than all who had come before. The Titan of immeasurable power and ferocity. He strode upon the plain and faced the Doom Slayer — and a mighty battle was fought on the desolate plains . . . The Titan fought with the fury of the countless that had fallen at the Doom Slayer's hand, but there fell the Titan, and in his defeat the shadow horde were routed" unless we want to say that the doomslayer completely foddarized the titan and avoided every blow(which would go ageinst it being a fiearce battle) doomslayer must've taken at least one or two attacks from the titan and surivived which would mean that he has multi city block levels of dura
Click to expand...
I wouldn't handwave Hugo's statements if they were perfectly in-line with what we see in the games. The problem is that they aren't. There's a noticeable amount of disconnect between what he's said and what the stories and such have presented so far.

The phrase "a mighty battle" can be interpreted any number of ways, and a scenario of the Slayer avoiding the Great One's attacks still leaves room for the battle to have been such in the eyes of the demons watching it from without. It's clear from the state of the environment around the Great One's body that a lot of destruction was caused before it fell, and it's also said to have fought with the fury of all that had fallen to the Slayer before it. I highly doubt that the Slayer was running around flexing on this thing during the battle, but there's not nearly enough elaboration on how the fight panned out for us to just assume he took hits from it and kept going.
5. we don't really know if the camp was the strongest titan hell we don't know if icon is we see that massive titan in the ancinet gods that towers over both of them being able to reach mountain tops
Click to expand...
The very Slayer Testament excerpt you linked states that the Great One was "mightier than all who had come before". There aren't very many ways that can be interpreted. It's a very straightforward statement with very straightforward implications.
 
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I found the interview with Midnight, Hugo and Marty.


9:53

The way Hugo explains the events with the Titans is that the Slayer has fought multiple Titans and even brings up the Slayer testaments. He also doesn't state the Slayer "Can" kill Titans with his bare hands, What he States is that the Slayer "has" Killed Titans with his bare hands. We don't see these events play out but the fact Hugo says he Has fought Titans with his bare hand, Means that during his crusade, the Slayer at one point had to fight a Titan without his weapon and there are plenty of moments in Doom 2016 Slayer testaments or even within the past of the Sentinels that this moment would have arrived. So even if the Slayer had access to a crucible, it's been confirmed that he had to use his own strenght at one point during his crusade, to take a Titan down.
 
Very good points i concede on my first and second argument(except that due to the statements it would mean the slayer didn't even know the demonic crucible existed).
The thrid however is where you made a self defeating point you admit that it seems to be possible to kill a titan with pure physical force as atlans themselves don't use crucible weaponry(as you said in the second point that the sentinals use energy based weapons that are not crucible) which would make hugos statements not self contradictory as the slayer would be able to kill a titan through purly physical means which is supported by the word of god in this case giving it more back bone.
The forth point, while yes it could be inturprited in that way it could also be inturprited in the way of a close battle you saying that we don't have enough information to say how the slayer won the fight also goes ageinst your point that its likely was that the slayer was dodeging all of the titans attacks as ageing in your own words we don't have enough information on the fight all we know is that it was a mighty battle which could be inturprited in your way slayer dodgeing everything and then brinig the titan down or mine where it was a close battle with both sides taking damage we clearly don't have enough information to insure that it was one way or another.
Five eh the "mightier than all who had come before" is quite subjective it might mean he is stronger then all in hell in which case low-1C crucible when? or it means that the titan was more powerful then all the demons the slayer has bested and killed which might include the icon but it was dormant and we never actually fought it full force prior to doom eternal and bob(the titan in the swamps) was never fought either and he directly serves the father and the old gods and that combined with his sheer inormaty makes me think that he is probably stronger then both the icon or the champ.

Also i belive that we should probably make a compromise because the lore the more i look at it is more and more subjective we can't take one statement without it being contradicted by something else
I say we give the slayer physical rating a 9-A possibly/likely 8A and 8A with his weapons it would be the best compromise in my honest opinion
 
also why are we straight away going with that the sword the slayer had is the demonic crucible the sentianals were known to use recular swords so why couldn't it be a regular sword nothing in the slayer testements says it was a crucible weapon.
 
Sir_sun_man said:
also why are we straight away going with that the sword the slayer had is the demonic crucible the sentianals were known to use recular swords so why couldn't it be a regular sword nothing in the slayer testements says it was a crucible weapon.
Click to expand...
And the fact that the slayer clearly had no idea where it was since Samuel had to tell him where it is.
 
It looks like to me most of what I was going to say to king was said by Day Man Fighter of the Night Man, but I’d still like to add some things.

The statements about the demon absorption, let’s not through that out the window because we have other statements that he’s constantly getting stronger as well. We should scale to the titan because he’s able to become stronger from absorbing argent from fallen demons on top of the WOG statements. Anything against that has been fill in the blanks with ideas that he could have used the demonic crucible, which the sequence of events show that could not possibly be the case.

Argent Cells should scale, when people say they don’t you are ignoring the statement about how doomguy’s absorption works and it’s just an erroneous idea that Hayden would give doomguy a argent cell for no reason at all.

He ranked the ion catapult and the argent tower explosion, if we use inverse square law I’m sure we will get 7-C from the argent tower.

7-C doom 2016 titan
7-C argent Cell
7-C argent tower explosion
7-C ion catapult.





MrKingOfNegativity said:
By recognizing that the "fall apart" never actually happened to begin with, and that she wasn't able to prevent even the most minute changes in the atmosphere beforehand anyway.
Click to expand...
Not being able to prevent the weather changes would just be a showcase of her limits she could prevent the destruction from happening but on the flipped side a little bad weather got in.
MrKingOfNegativity said:
Which, no, Urdak never fell apart the way you're describing. It still exists. It's simply occupied and corrupted by the forces of Hell now. This is outright stated at the beginning of The Ancient Gods, Part I.
Click to expand...
No no no as you can see when we travel to urdak in the dlc that most of the surrounding planets are severely fractured or just not there anymore.
 
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