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Slayer scales to the titan imo
Wut do people want to change about classic Doomguy?
Wut do people want to change about classic Doomguy?
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Doom Eternal Revision Thread Part 4
- Thread starter Firestorm808
- Start date
- Status
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With everything being said so far, I believe it is best that we start from the bottom and work our way up.
Regarding Classic Doomguy, we currently have the following:
Tier: At least 9-B, 9-C to 9-A with most weapons, 8-A with the Berserk Sphere or BFG, higher against demons with the Unmaker
Attack Potency: At least Wall level (Capable of killing demons on this level with his bare fists, is also noticeably stronger than his counterpart from DOOM 3), Street level to Small Building level with most weapons, Multi-City Block level with the Berserk Sphere or BFG 9000 (Capable of killing the Cyberdemon with Berserk Sphere, though this takes a fair amount of time to accomplish), higher against demons with the Unmaker
Do we have a usable calc for the Classic BFG 9K?
Regarding Classic Doomguy, we currently have the following:
Tier: At least 9-B, 9-C to 9-A with most weapons, 8-A with the Berserk Sphere or BFG, higher against demons with the Unmaker
Attack Potency: At least Wall level (Capable of killing demons on this level with his bare fists, is also noticeably stronger than his counterpart from DOOM 3), Street level to Small Building level with most weapons, Multi-City Block level with the Berserk Sphere or BFG 9000 (Capable of killing the Cyberdemon with Berserk Sphere, though this takes a fair amount of time to accomplish), higher against demons with the Unmaker
Do we have a usable calc for the Classic BFG 9K?
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There isnt as far as im aware.
Unless the guide books give some statement about its power the best course would be to see how many demons it can kill in 1 shot, calculate their mass then apply vaporization(?)
Unless the guide books give some statement about its power the best course would be to see how many demons it can kill in 1 shot, calculate their mass then apply vaporization(?)
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Unfortunately, since the weapon has no clear statements or feats of its own in any of the original games, there's nothing to really calc. The most you can say about it is that it's a lot stronger than a rocket launcher.
Going over this a bit:
This comes from cross-scaling the classic Cyberdemon to the 2016 one, even though the two monsters are from different points in time and have different origins. (Actually, the original reason for this was because the old Cybie profile took them as being basically the same) Moreover, the entire rating comes from indirect scaling to...the BFG. Specifically the 2016 BFG and what it does in gameplay, as the current BFG profile takes its ratings from what it does in the 2016 game.
I'm pretty sure I was one of the original people responsible for that, too. ****.
Going over this a bit:
Why are we scaling the classic Doomguy to an alternate continuity?
Ah shit...
This comes from cross-scaling the classic Cyberdemon to the 2016 one, even though the two monsters are from different points in time and have different origins. (Actually, the original reason for this was because the old Cybie profile took them as being basically the same) Moreover, the entire rating comes from indirect scaling to...the BFG. Specifically the 2016 BFG and what it does in gameplay, as the current BFG profile takes its ratings from what it does in the 2016 game.
I'm pretty sure I was one of the original people responsible for that, too. ****.
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Oh, that reminds me. If we're moving on to the Classic Doomguy key, then there's something I need to address right now:
What I mean by that is, the videos of people doing that in the classic DOOM games don't tell you that said running speed is achieved by exploiting an in-game straferunning glitch that causes you to move much, much faster than what your normal forward running speed is. I've been meaning to address that for a while now; us using that as a feat is like giving CJ from GTA access to cheat codes on his profile.
This video explains the gist of straferunning better than I can:
This is something everyone gets wrong when referring to Doomguy "outrunning his own rockets in-game". You aren't supposed to have the option of outrunning a missile in the game, and that's evidenced by the fact that you physically can't do this without abusing straferunning tricks. Rockets in classic DOOM move at 20 map units per tic. Your character runs at a measly 16.67 when moving forward without straferunning.
This needs to be removed from the profile, because it isn't a real feat.
What I mean by that is, the videos of people doing that in the classic DOOM games don't tell you that said running speed is achieved by exploiting an in-game straferunning glitch that causes you to move much, much faster than what your normal forward running speed is. I've been meaning to address that for a while now; us using that as a feat is like giving CJ from GTA access to cheat codes on his profile.
This video explains the gist of straferunning better than I can:
This is something everyone gets wrong when referring to Doomguy "outrunning his own rockets in-game". You aren't supposed to have the option of outrunning a missile in the game, and that's evidenced by the fact that you physically can't do this without abusing straferunning tricks. Rockets in classic DOOM move at 20 map units per tic. Your character runs at a measly 16.67 when moving forward without straferunning.
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Actually, I recall the Doom 3 version is part of the continuity just a different character. Also, Doomguy physically runs faster than Wraith's rockets, and he can dodge machine generated electricity regularly.
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I don't see why it would be. The game's own data and code (which can be found on various wikis nowadays) tells us that the player doesn't normally move fast enough to outrun a rocket in-game. The only reason people can do so is because the straferunning glitch bumps your movement speed up from 16.67 mu/tic to anywhere between 21.34 and 35+, depending on which tricks you're using and how many.
I don't think there are. I mean there is that old DOOM comic from the 90s (lol), but I don't think it's actually canon to the games. I'm fairly positive the DOOM novel isn't canon either.
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@MrKingOfNegativity
@DarkDragonMedeus has elaborated that it's an acceptable speed feat. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:DarkDragonMedeus/Classic_Doomguy_Outruns_an_RPG
@DarkDragonMedeus has elaborated that it's an acceptable speed feat. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:DarkDragonMedeus/Classic_Doomguy_Outruns_an_RPG
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I am aware of what it says in the calc blog, and the assumptions made therein. The problem is that the logic doesn't hold up.
The original mechanics of the game have it so that you top out at a very specific running speed in each direction. Straferunning and wallrunning exist because the developers didn't account for how certain mechanics and parameters would interact with each other in the code of those games, leaving a certain degree of overlap between each. These tricks weren't intentional on the developers' part, any more than rocket-jumping and strafe-jumping were intentional mechanics in the first Quake game. They are exploits of flaws in the game's code, discovered by speedrunners and competitive deathmatch players in the '90s. Nothing more.
And yes, using this as a feat is the equivalent of rating Ranger and Bitterman's speeds based on the velocities they can reach while rocket-jumping and strafe-jumping in Quake 1 and 2 respectively.
Scaling off anything else we have that reaches this tier is fine. I don't personally have an agenda for what the classic Doomguy should be rated as. But using this as a feat is the very definition of getting ratings from a game mechanic, only worse than that, because it's getting ratings from a mechanic that originates from developer oversight.
The original mechanics of the game have it so that you top out at a very specific running speed in each direction. Straferunning and wallrunning exist because the developers didn't account for how certain mechanics and parameters would interact with each other in the code of those games, leaving a certain degree of overlap between each. These tricks weren't intentional on the developers' part, any more than rocket-jumping and strafe-jumping were intentional mechanics in the first Quake game. They are exploits of flaws in the game's code, discovered by speedrunners and competitive deathmatch players in the '90s. Nothing more.
And yes, using this as a feat is the equivalent of rating Ranger and Bitterman's speeds based on the velocities they can reach while rocket-jumping and strafe-jumping in Quake 1 and 2 respectively.
Scaling off anything else we have that reaches this tier is fine. I don't personally have an agenda for what the classic Doomguy should be rated as. But using this as a feat is the very definition of getting ratings from a game mechanic, only worse than that, because it's getting ratings from a mechanic that originates from developer oversight.
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@DarkDragonMedeus we have clear statements from the codex that when the father came out of the void he started creating the multiverse along with Hell.
@MrKingOfNegativity while our interpretation of that feat may have been off, it think it still scales because from what you said it just shows us that the khan makyrs power was keeping urdak in shape and the dark lord’s influence at bay.
As for the titan, he still physically overpowered it. When we look at the titan in agent d’nur we see no cut wounds on it so it would seem like to me he just beat the shit out of it and then put the sword inside of it after wards.
@MrKingOfNegativity while our interpretation of that feat may have been off, it think it still scales because from what you said it just shows us that the khan makyrs power was keeping urdak in shape and the dark lord’s influence at bay.
As for the titan, he still physically overpowered it. When we look at the titan in agent d’nur we see no cut wounds on it so it would seem like to me he just beat the shit out of it and then put the sword inside of it after wards.
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I'm not seeing a single thing in the video I linked that implies any of what you're saying it does.
If you're talking about the Titan as seen in the Titan's Realm stage of the 2016 game, its body is desiccated. There's no way to tell what shape it was in immediately after its defeat.
If you're talking about this Titan, most of its body is buried under rubble. You can't see whether or not it has any wounds on its body.
In both cases, you're assuming a lot based on what's essentially nothing.
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Pretty sure the "I am God and I created the multiverse" codex entries are just propaganda, if that is even what they say.
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@Matthew_Schroeder
Why would they propagandize a book made to record history for a society filled with super geniuses/extraordinary geniuses who can figure out the truth easily with their weird supercomputer tech that allowed them nigh omnicent intelligence?
This book was made specifically for Maykrs,no one else.
@MrKingOfNegativity
Hugo Martin stated that the slayer is capable of overpowering titans with fists and weapons.The setpieces suggest that it took huge mechs in order to overpower the titans for the average sentinel as well.
Hugo states crucibles are all equally powerful as well,so no one crucible is superior to the other.
Why would they propagandize a book made to record history for a society filled with super geniuses/extraordinary geniuses who can figure out the truth easily with their weird supercomputer tech that allowed them nigh omnicent intelligence?
This book was made specifically for Maykrs,no one else.
@MrKingOfNegativity
Hugo Martin stated that the slayer is capable of overpowering titans with fists and weapons.The setpieces suggest that it took huge mechs in order to overpower the titans for the average sentinel as well.
Hugo states crucibles are all equally powerful as well,so no one crucible is superior to the other.
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well we know for a fact that doom guy can wistand an attack from a titan(icon of sin fight and the titan champion codex) so wouldn't his dura just scale to his AP?
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Hugo Martin doesn't seem to be aware of how much the events laid out within the games contradict this.
The Slayer, after defeating what was initially the mightiest Titan in existence, was incapacitated by having one of the Blood Temples forcibly collapsed on top of him. Average Titans are capable of carrying Blood Temples on their backs without significant trouble, much less being rendered immobile by the weight.
The codex doesn't explicitly state that he withstood hits from that Titan. Only that he defeated it. We don't have any specifics on the fight itself, or what the Slayer actually did during that fight.
As for the Icon of Sin, he only takes hits from it in gameplay. Refer to what I said before in regards to that.
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that has nothing to do with ap thats lifting strength
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It's not just lifting strength. It's also withstanding the weight of a temple without being injured in the process.
Which is something the Slayer couldn't do.
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Firstly,the lore states he has gotten much stronger since the previous events of 2016 and most likely much stronger than his former prime was.
Secondly,I’ll need some source on Titans carrying blood temples on their backs.The Doomslayer having the blood temple collapse only stunned him too.Not to mention that only happened fairly early into his blessing.If a simple blood temple collapse is all what it took to knock him out,why didn’t they achieve something similar in one of the most important invasions ever?
Third,the maykr’s orb was weak to the doomslayer’s blood punches.Implying that he had some physical interaction with her.The Khan should be superior to any barge available and was damaged by the Doomslayer physically.
Fourth,doomguy destroyed the father’s orb with his bare hands.Completely wrecking the only thing that would’ve given him a physical vessel into the world,not to mention also smacked around the seraphim whom should be superior to the barges and maybe the Khan.
What are you exactly planning for the slayer’s tier?
Secondly,I’ll need some source on Titans carrying blood temples on their backs.The Doomslayer having the blood temple collapse only stunned him too.Not to mention that only happened fairly early into his blessing.If a simple blood temple collapse is all what it took to knock him out,why didn’t they achieve something similar in one of the most important invasions ever?
Third,the maykr’s orb was weak to the doomslayer’s blood punches.Implying that he had some physical interaction with her.The Khan should be superior to any barge available and was damaged by the Doomslayer physically.
Fourth,doomguy destroyed the father’s orb with his bare hands.Completely wrecking the only thing that would’ve given him a physical vessel into the world,not to mention also smacked around the seraphim whom should be superior to the barges and maybe the Khan.
What are you exactly planning for the slayer’s tier?
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I don't think killing a Kaiju necessary means you scale to its AP lol.
"Small dude kills giant monster by stabbing it" is the most common trope in existence.
"Small dude kills giant monster by stabbing it" is the most common trope in existence.
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he did though if he couldn't he'd be dead which he ain't
the only thing that happen is he got trapped
hell we see him wistand the self dustruction of the uca oil rig no issue
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well then monster hunter need quite the bit of a downgrade
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I mean it depends on the method. Wander from SotC blatantly doesn't scale to the Colossi strength.
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@Matthew_Schroeder How could you possibly come to the conclusion of propaganda? The statement about the father is coming from the Makyrs’ history who have nigh-omniscience.
@MrKingOfNegativity That titan who is half under rubble doesn’t have a single cut wound besides where it was planted, I mean only it’s legs and arms are covered up are we saying that doom guy killed by giving it cuts to the appendages? I mean what are you proposing again? That the titan AP only scales to the crucible? If so I don’t understand how that would work.
The khan makyr specifically stated the seal of urdak has been broken and it was broken by doomguy’s actions, which then proceed to cause the destruction.
@MrKingOfNegativity That titan who is half under rubble doesn’t have a single cut wound besides where it was planted, I mean only it’s legs and arms are covered up are we saying that doom guy killed by giving it cuts to the appendages? I mean what are you proposing again? That the titan AP only scales to the crucible? If so I don’t understand how that would work.
The khan makyr specifically stated the seal of urdak has been broken and it was broken by doomguy’s actions, which then proceed to cause the destruction.
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Can we please save the Doom Slayer talks for later?
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Something I'd like to bring up. The Slayer did not have his Crucible blade during his rampage against Hell. He lodged that blade into the Dreadnaught Titan. So when the Slayer entered the Titans realm and Took on The Champion, the only weapons he would have is a basic sword and his Super Shotgun. With that in mind, I do believe hugo's Statement that the Slayer can kill a Titan with his bare hands holds a lot of truth.
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The Makyrs having some cosmic awareness (Doubt they're literally nigh omniscient) doesn't mean they don't want to portray themselves as gods.
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Doesn't matter. Part of the claim relies on the fact that the Slayer defeated the strongest Titan of the First Age, which is something that happened...during the First Age, prior to the events of 2016.
What do you think the Hell Barges are?
Slayer Testament VII said:
The Titans are shown carrying these temples/Hell Barges throughout the game, so between that and the above, there's all the evidence you need.Codex; Story of Hell - Hell Barges said:
Clearly not since, as evidenced within the Slayer Testament passage I linked above, the collapse of the temple incapacitated him enough that they were able to take him and seal him in the cursed sarcophagus. Which they never would have been able to do if he were simply "stunned", seeing as his first action in 2016, while barely awake, is to grab the nearby demon and smash its head into chunks of meat. He would have to be significantly injured or flat-out unconscious in order for them to successfully seal him away. And since his Praetor Armor was almost completely unscathed when the UAC recovered it (and him), that only leaves one possibility...
No it didn't. The events depicted within the Slayer Testaments happened very late into his blessing, long after the Sentinels were dead and the Slayer was rampaging alone on a quest to kill the Hell Priests for their deception.
History of the Sentinels - Part XIV said:
The timeline of events is very clear. And that definitely matters in regards to what I'm about to say next...Slayer Testament I said:
Do you want a Doylist answer or a Watsonian one?
The Doylist answer is simple; the writers didn't have Eternal's story figured out back in 2016. They wrote a significant plot point for the 2016 game, then completely forgot about it when writing another significant plot point three years later.
A Watsonian answer would be less simple, but not unrealistic; the idea to sacrifice one of their well-built and particularly regal temples never occurred to them until they had reached a point of unfathomable desperation. By the time the "Great One" was dead and gone, they were faced with something which they felt couldn't be stopped with conventional means and had expended their best resources trying to do so. They needed to do something drastic, or else they'd have him kicking in their door and doing to them what he'd done to countless other demons before them.
What is your reasoning for why the Khan Makyr should be stronger? She has no real feats of her own and there aren't any statements I'm aware of which imply that her raw power is above what the Titans frequently showcase.
This is also going into using gameplay for scaling again, which I've already established is not reliable.
"Completely wrecking the only thing that would’ve given him a physical vessel into the world" scales him to the Father's AP how, exactly? I hope you're not trying to imply that the orb was at the level of the Father just because it could incarnate him into physical existence.
That's something I'll be figuring out as I go along, once the more nonsensical interpretations are done away with. I want what is reasonable. Nothing more, nothing less.
Being unable to withstand a certain weight bearing down on you without hurting yourself doesn't necessarily mean you'll die from any amount of weight that can cause you physical injury, so I'm not sure what you're getting at with this.
Wrong.
He wasn't just trapped by the temple debris. He was incapacitated enough that the Hell Priests were able to take him out, place him within a sarcophagus, bring it to a tomb kilometers deep inside the Kadingir Sanctum, then mark the place with a series of intricate wards and runes that surrounded him in a barrier and kept him in stasis.UAC REPORT FILE 7VPMJ2IQ said:
They never would have gotten away with any of this if the debris had simply trapped him.
Are you referring to the Argent Tower? Because if you are, we don't see the full extent of that explosion, or anything else we can get a yield from.
We're not saying the Slayer killed it at all, because he didn't. He sealed it with the Crucible, which is something Hayden immediately notes will cease the moment he removes the blade from its chest.
Enough significant wounds anywhere on its body would weaken it to the point that the Slayer could stick the blade into its chest. Alternatively, he could have just jumped into the air and sank the blade into its chest without even needing to wound it elsewhere, since there are buildings and such around its body and he's clearly capable of performing Superman leaps if he really wants or needs to.
I do. It's called "not having enough evidence to scale that AP to anything else".
I'm starting to get the feeling that you've actually forgotten the events of the story you're talking about.
Hayden states that the seal was broken as a result of the Slayer awakening the Icon of Sin within the confines of Urdak. I don't think the game could be any more blunt about this.
The Slayer Testaments aren't the only thing I'm taking into account when coming to the conclusion that he was wielding a Crucible. Not only does another Crucible appear at the end of 2016, but Eternal's story makes it clear that Crucible blades can be acquired elsewhere with enough time and knowledge of them. With that in mind, I think the assumption that the Slayer was wielding a Crucible during his rampage is a fair one, since he didn't necessarily need to go back and take his old one out of the Dreadnought's body in order for that to be the case.
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There is no evidence that he got another crucible blade though. The crucible he lodged into the Dreadnaught is his Personal Blade, Which is why he took the hilt when he snapped it out of the Dreadnaught. As for the Crucible Blade in 2016, that's the Demonic Crucible, which is different from a Common or King Crucible. Another thing I'd like to Note, Since the Slayer was a Sentinel king, It's highly unlikely that he would use a different Crucible Blade. It's written that when a sentinel acquires their weapon, they are practically tied to it by a code of honor, making it more unlikely that he used another Crucible during his rampage. I still believe the Slayer can take a Titan with his bare hands.
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That's fine, you can believe whatever you want, but that isn't enough to get something on the wiki.
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@MrKingOfNegativity still don’t see how that changes anything, that would actually mean we can scale the icon to the feat too. The sky didn’t turn red and the realm didn’t end up in ruin until the Khan Makyr was killed by doomguy. So yes the khan makyr was clearly preventing the destruction from happening after the seal was broken.
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@Matthew_Schroeder the divinity machine statement clearly defines nigh-omniscience.
“Within the infinite conscious-matrix of the all-seeing Maykr God-mind, there exists every potentiality - every predictive variable of possible future timeline - each one known to the Maykr collective with omniscient, inextricable clarity. The God-mind surveys these timelines, watching them form and expand exponentially like fractal patterns in the fabric of existence”
“Within the infinite conscious-matrix of the all-seeing Maykr God-mind, there exists every potentiality - every predictive variable of possible future timeline - each one known to the Maykr collective with omniscient, inextricable clarity. The God-mind surveys these timelines, watching them form and expand exponentially like fractal patterns in the fabric of existence”
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Well I mean, it's just based off of what Hugo said and he makes the statement twice.
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You're giving his devotion to their ways a bit too much credit. He doesn't care about Sentinel laws and codes.
There's nothing to suggest that he didn't acquire another Crucible after the Dreadnought was defeated. If anything, there's much greater evidence that he did, seeing as the Testaments state that he had a sword during his rampage and (outside of WoG) there's no actual instance of him killing a Titan with his bare hands to contradict him needing a Crucible in order to kill the Great One. His lack of compunction in regards to attaining a new Crucible (even a demonic one) only furthers the likelihood that he actually did so at some point.History of the Sentinels - X said:
You're overextrapolating again. She couldn't even prevent fodder demons from teleporting into Urdak once the seal was broken, which was something they explicitly couldn't do when the seal was still intact. If there were any environmental changes happening as a result of the seal being broken, she wouldn't be able to do a thing about them.
In fact, changes in weather patterns were already happening by the time the Slayer's battle with her takes place. Clouds are raging and lightning is striking in the background as you fight her. The only real change that happens when she dies is that the sky turns red.
You seem really intent on getting a feat out of this sequence, but I'm here to tell you, it doesn't exist.
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I mean.
King has debunked most of my points.GG,but why was the Icon so torn up when the crucible was put into his skull if all it took was just a shallow stab into the chest/head to seal him in?Surely the slayer did more than just stab him once.
Lastly,shouldn’t the Icon scale above the argent tower explosion?While the slayer was able to absorb it due to argent receptors,it still released a fat amount of force either way.The Icon/hell barges should be superior to said explosion(or even the Vega meltdown)
Is the plan to make the Doomslayer a glass cannon with sealing Hax?
King has debunked most of my points.GG,but why was the Icon so torn up when the crucible was put into his skull if all it took was just a shallow stab into the chest/head to seal him in?Surely the slayer did more than just stab him once.
Lastly,shouldn’t the Icon scale above the argent tower explosion?While the slayer was able to absorb it due to argent receptors,it still released a fat amount of force either way.The Icon/hell barges should be superior to said explosion(or even the Vega meltdown)
Is the plan to make the Doomslayer a glass cannon with sealing Hax?
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The Slayer Doesn't Care for Politics. That doesn't mean he doesn't respect the Sentinels Code of honor. The Art book suggest that he does believe in some of their traditions.
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Yeah, hate to see a downgrade on this level, but King seems to make a lot of sense, and has the evidence to back it up.
The Icon being torn apart by the end of the fight is likely just a result of the game mechanics involved in the fight. We don't know if it's canon or not. The only thing we know is canon is that the Crucible was used in the fight. So that's all we can use.
The Icon being torn apart by the end of the fight is likely just a result of the game mechanics involved in the fight. We don't know if it's canon or not. The only thing we know is canon is that the Crucible was used in the fight. So that's all we can use.
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Why in gods name would the Icon being torn apart not be canon tho? It’s literally in a canonical cutscene.
Can’t we just say the slayer at least shredded him up with the crucible to reach his flesh?The Icon was covered in a metallic suit as well,unless you are telling me the suit existing was game mechanics.
Can’t we just say the slayer at least shredded him up with the crucible to reach his flesh?The Icon was covered in a metallic suit as well,unless you are telling me the suit existing was game mechanics.
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