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Doom Eternal Revision Thread Part 4

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Sir_sun_man said:
Also i belive that we should probably make a compromise because the lore the more i look at it is more and more subjective we can't take one statement without it being contradicted by something else
I say we give the slayer physical rating a 9-A possibly/likely 8A and 8A with his weapons it would be the best compromise in my honest opinion
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Answering this part and this part alone because it's ultimately all that matters to the conclusion of this argument.

The first bit has been my opinion since the beginning. The lore sounds impressive, but most of it isn't very on-the-nose with how it describes things and a fair majority of the statements are too vague to base hard ratings on without diving into a lot of speculation. That's been the problem this whole time; a lot of very grand assumptions have been made based on fairly broad statements from the codexes, Slayer Testaments and history entries, and from an objective standpoint, I don't find that to be wise.

But yes, I'm willing to compromise on a joint rating; one based on what we can conclusively prove, and another based on the possibility of him being able to take on Titans on his own. It would look something like "At least X, possibly Y", with very pointed justifications for each.

Whether or not the first rating ends up being 9-A is not something I care about unless that's really all we can conclusively prove from his feats.
 
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MrKingOfNegativity said:
The first bit has been my opinion since the beginning. The lore sounds impressive, but most of it isn't very on-the-nose with how it describes things and a fair majority of the statements are too vague to base hard ratings on without diving into a lot of speculation.
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I think any rating for doomguy would be from vague speculation about why things couldn’t have happened the way that they did. It’s also ridiculous to say that the divinity machine gave doomguy absolutely NO power boost.


MrKingOfNegativity said:
That's been the problem this whole time; a lot of very grand assumptions have been made based on very broad statements from the codexes, Slayer Testaments and history entries, and from an objective standpoint, I don't find that to be wise.
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And what other option do we have? Gameplay scaling? You know that’s ridiculous. The codexes are the best we have.
 
DTG499 said:
I think any rating for doomguy would be from vague speculation about why things couldn’t have happened the way that they did. It’s also ridiculous to say that the divinity machine gave doomguy absolutely NO power boost.
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You realize that A. I just said quite clearly "I don't care if his first rating is 9-A or not", and B. 9-A as a tier has a 50x difference from top to bottom? You seem legitimately convinced that I'm angling towards 9-A and only 9-A when I'm really not, but even if I was, going "from 9-A to 9-A" would not be "absolutely NO power boost". There's room for a fairly significant jump in power there.
And what other option do we have? Gameplay scaling? You know that’s ridiculous. The codexes are the best we have.
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And this is what we in the debating community like to call a 'strawman'.

I never said we shouldn't use the codexes. What I said was:
That's been the problem this whole time; a lot of very grand assumptions have been made based on very broad statements from the codexes, Slayer Testaments and history entries, and from an objective standpoint, I don't find that to be wise.
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Which is a very fair criticism to make, and a problem that can be corrected easily without us having to toss the lore out of the window and resort to gameplay scaling. Using the codexes is fine. Highballing their relatively vague statements at every opportunity is not.
 
Hugo brings up the Slayer testaments that he did battle titans with his bare hands and that its within the context of the story. It's not an assumption and Hugo's statement should be seen as more of clarification and Context for past events, considering that interpretation of the codex are the issue here.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
Which is a very fair criticism to make, and a problem that can be corrected easily without us having to toss the lore out of the window and resort to gameplay scaling. Using the codexes is fine. Highballing their relatively vague statements at every opportunity is not.
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The initial “highball” interpretation of the titan realm fight is being replaced by something that is far more vague and filled with a scenario from that story that was never stated to have happened. To assume that Doomguy using the demonic crucible to take down the titan pre 2016 just from the statement, “those who tasted the bite of his sword” is way more of reach from a vague statement than anything we have been doing.

Yes the lore statements are vague but you are still using the same vague lore statements to come your reach of a conclusion, prioritizing the lowball over the objective evidence that would lead doomguy to the “highball”.

Even when Hugo provided us with a clarification of the events that went down in the titan fight.
 
It's kind of a mix. There's really no point giving it speed or other, we simply don't know those stats. So I left it as is.
 
Once again the lore is against us with it tbh. The only thing we know about Hell as a character, is how vast it is.
 
MicDaniel said:
Hugo brings up the Slayer testaments that he did battle titans with his bare hands and that its within the context of the story. It's not an assumption and Hugo's statement should be seen as more of clarification and Context for past events, considering that interpretation of the codex are the issue here.
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I wouldn't say so, given that the actual context of that is him elaborating that the Slayer doesn't need an Atlan, not that he doesn't need a Crucible. Actually, looking again, what he says is "He killed him with his bare hands and his weapons", which implies that he didn't just punch its face in like so many of the people here are implying.

And even if he were trying to clarify past events, there is evidence against the idea that the Slayer is powerful enough to just beat a Titan down with his bare hands. An author can say whatever they want about their work, but if their statements aren't properly reflected within the material itself, then they hold no water. Justin Jordan's WoG statements regarding the Luthor Strode series (which are similar to these, but in the opposite direction) are a prime example of that.
DTG499 said:
To assume that Doomguy using the demonic crucible to take down the titan pre 2016 just from the statement, “those who tasted the bite of his sword” is way more of reach from a vague statement than anything we have been doing.
Click to expand...
Another strawman. My conclusion is based on much more than just one statement; it's based on every bit of context we're given in regards to the story, including Hayden/the Seraphim being very blunt about the fact that the Crucible was the Slayer's only chance against the Icon of Sin.

I really shouldn't even have to point out how much I've taken into account in regards to my argument, because I've already laid the bulk of it out across numerous posts I've made in this thread. All one has to do go back and read the things I've said to realize that my viewpoint comes from far more than just one measly statement.
Yes the lore statements are vague but you are still using the same vague lore statements to come your reach of a conclusion, prioritizing the lowball over the objective evidence that would lead doomguy to the “highball”.
Click to expand...
There is no "objective" evidence that leads to the highball. If anything, there's evidence against it, seeing as the Slayer was significantly incapacitated by the weight of a Blood Temple after beating what was supposedly the strongest Titan of its age, when even average Titans are unaffected the weight of such temples and display that regularly.

In reality, what you're suggesting is that the sword mentioned at the beginning of the Slayer Testaments just stopped being a thing once the Titan came into play, and that it's likely to have just been a random sword even though the only swords we ever see the Slayer use are the Crucibles. Contextually, your interpretation makes very little sense and is fairly inconsistent with itself.

Even when Hugo provided us with a clarification of the events that went down in the titan fight.
Click to expand...
Addressed above.
I'm going to hold fast to what I said before. I'm willing to compromise on an "At least X, possibly Y" rating, where X is the interpretation based on conclusive evidence, and Y is the interpretation based on possible scaling to the Titans. All things considered, especially with the vague nature of the codexes and other bits of lore, I don't think this is an unfair compromise at all.
 
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That's not the point though, your still ignoring a big thing here, It's confirmed that he has used his bare hands to damage a Titan. Yes the Slayer has access to different weapons but Hugo still confirms that he did use his bare hands when he took down Titan. To fight up close in personal like that would require serious strenght and power.

The issue with this part of the argument is that when he says the Slayer took down the Titans with his bare hands and weapons, he literally says "As the Slayer testaments Says so." This means the statement he made is supported by the material. He mentions the codex more then once in the interview and tells the audience to read it. Not only that but the Slayer has killed multiple titans within the lore of Doom, it's a consistent feat that's been stated multiple times, So it's not an outlier by any means.
 
MicDaniel said:
That's not the point though, your still ignoring a big thing here, It's confirmed that he has used his bare hands to damage a Titan. Yes the Slayer has access to different weapons but Hugo still confirms that he did use his bare hands when he took down Titan.
Click to expand...
Justin Jordan once "confirmed" that Luther Strode can't lift a car even though he things like body-slamming people through concrete walls.

Point being, Word of God isn't infallible. Even if Hugo is saying he can beat them down with his bare hands, he's pointing to material that doesn't support that claim. Never once is it said in the Slayer Testaments that the Slayer punched out a Titan, and by contrast, we have an actual instance that puts him beneath them as well as tons of story context that implies he's not on their level physically.

Not only that but the Slayer has killed multiple titans within the lore of Doom, it's a consistent feat that's been stated multiple times, So it's not an outlier by any means.
Click to expand...
Applying one author statement to several offscreen Titan fights does not equate to a consistent feat.
Do we have actual scans for how big the blood temple actually is?
Click to expand...
Yes.
maxresdefault.jpg

I've already outlined what shows that these are the same Blood Temples, but just in case it was missed or has been forgotten:
Slayer Testament VII said:
Yet as the mighty Titan fell and dread engulfed the armies of Doom, the demon priests of the Blood Temples laid a trap to capture this scourge of Hell. Insatiable, even by the vanquishing of the Great One, the Hell Walker sought prey in the tombs of the Blood Keep. And blinded by his fervor, the lure drew him in. The priests brought down the temple upon the Doom Slayer, and in his defeat entombed him in the cursed sarcophagus.
Click to expand...
Codex; Story of Hell - Hell Barges said:
Atop mighty Thralls, the Hell Priests oversaw the invasion of the mortal world. The Thrall, slave titan of the underworld, carried the Priest Temples into the wake of battle, providing the Priests with vigil of Hell's advance from a strategically impervious emplacement. From their Temples perch the Priests would emanate a powerful psionic influence, imposing greater coordination among the chaotic forces of Hell and increasing their battle effectiveness. The Thrall, possessing superior resilience, proved indestructible by conventional weapons, thwarting all attempts by Armored Response Coalition defensive forces. Only by severing the Priest's psychokinetic tether could the Titan be neutralized - an act that could only be accomplished by an infiltration of the Temple itself.
Click to expand...
 
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Those aren't blood temples though. The image you just showed me within the Codex those temples are specifically called priest temples. Not only that but there are the Demon Priest and Hell Priest. Two completely separate entities.
 
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They are referring to the same thing. "Demon priests of the Blood Temples" refers to the Hell Priests, and we learn that the Hell Priests' personal temples are what serve as the Hell Barges atop the Titans' backs.

Unless you're going to tell me that the "demon priests" mentioned in the Slayer Testaments are not the Hell Priests. Which, FYI, the Testaments also refer to the demon priests as "the dark lords who wronged him".
 
No, the "Dark Lord" (with caps) is. "Dark lords" (no caps) is just a descriptor in this case.

We know from the context of Eternal that the Slayer is specifically out to kill the Hell Priests for their actions during the events of his backstory. He wasn't out to kill the Dark Lord during the events described within the Testaments; up until The Ancient Gods, he didn't even know who the Dark Lord was. Combine that with the blatant parallels between the "demon priests" mentioned in the Testaments and the Hell Priests as depicted in Eternal, and it's pretty clear that they're one in the same.

Which, yeah, this is a pretty consistent thing throughout Eternal. The "wretch who shall not be named" mentioned in the Testaments clearly turns out to be the Betrayer, the instance of the Seraphim "bestow(ing) upon him terrible power and speed" turns out to be the event where the Slayer was subjected to the Divinity Machine, etc. Really, the bulk of Eternal's backstory draws from shit that was already vaguely referenced within the Testaments.

It also doesn't help that several things in the lore are referred to by multiple names anyway. Hell, the Slayer himself has like 3 or 4 different monikers/titles in the Testaments alone.
 
There's Several Issues with your Argument.
Demon Priest =/= Hell Priest.
The demon priests are never referred to or hinted at to be the dark Lords either.
In the Slayer testaments they are specifically called demon priests, Not Hell Priest.
In the wraiths III Codex they refer to Deag Grav as a hell priest, Not a demon Priest and that was written in the same period of the Betrayal and is a codex within 2016.
"The Night Sentinels stood strong against our legions. Conquest of Argent D'Nur, empowered by the Wraith-energy, was foiled at every turn. Yet in our darkest hour came a lowly Hell priest, Deag Grav, and in his guidance a weakness in a heathen of the Night Sentinels was found."
No one ever refers to any of the Hell priest as Demon Priest nor do they call them Dark Lords.

There are plenty of candidates to fit the description of the Demon Priests and Dark Lords within the DOOM 2016 codex. According to the baron of hells 2016 codex entry there was in fact another dark lord or being that was referred to as the dark lord. " The Barons of Hell are the current Royal Guard of the unknown dark lord of the fourth age." Fourth Age, Implying that there were four other dark lords.
In the Doom Eternal Artbook it's revealed that there are 6 leaders of hells army, these are also candidates for Dark Lords/Demon Priest.
 
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Hugo didn't say the Slayer can fight Titans with his bare hands he said this Slayer HAS fought Titans with his bare hands, that's the difference. when Hugo refers to the Slayer testament he's clearly referring to the crusade and also the battle with the champion Titan, after all it does state that he had a mighty battle with the champion Titan. So as I said earlier Hugo's statement should be seen as clarification for events that we do not see unfold, because once more the issue here is the interpretation of the Codex.
 
MicDaniel said:
There's Several Issues with your Argument.
Demon Priest =/= Hell Priest.
The demon priests are never referred to or hinted at to be the dark Lords either.
In the Slayer testaments they are specifically called demon priests, Not Hell Priest.
In the wraiths III Codex they refer to Deag Grav as a hell priest, Not a demon Priest and that was written in the same period of the Betrayal and is a codex within 2016.
"The Night Sentinels stood strong against our legions. Conquest of Argent D'Nur, empowered by the Wraith-energy, was foiled at every turn. Yet in our darkest hour came a lowly Hell priest, Deag Grav, and in his guidance a weakness in a heathen of the Night Sentinels was found."
No one ever refers to any of the Hell priest as Demon Priest nor do they call them Dark Lords.

There are plenty of candidates to fit the description of the Demon Priests and Dark Lords within the DOOM 2016 codex. According to the baron of hells 2016 codex entry there was in fact another dark lord or being that was referred to as the dark lord. " The Barons of Hell are the current Royal Guard of the unknown dark lord of the fourth age." Fourth Age, Implying that there were four other dark lords.
In the Doom Eternal Artbook it's revealed that there are 6 leaders of hells army, these are also candidates for Dark Lords/Demon Priest.
Click to expand...
And yet A. none of those above lords are the one(s) who wronged him in his backstory (the Hell Priests are the ones directly responsible for what happened to the Night Sentinels), B. it's made clear that the Doom Slayer does not know about higher entities outside of the ones directly interacted with in his past (he has to have the existence of such beings explained to him more than once), and C. Deag Grav isn't the only character first appearing in 2016 who would be referred to by a different title in the Testaments. (The Betrayer is referenced by name in the same Codex entry as Deag Grav, yet he's referred to as The Wretch in the Slayer Testaments, which are the only in-game source from either game that refers to him by that name)

The context and evidence both point towards the Hell Priests being the demon priests mentioned. Unlike the other entities vaguely hinted at in 2016, the Hell Priests are expounded upon further, and they match up with what the Testaments tell us about the priests who trapped and sealed the Slayer.
Hugo didn't say the Slayer can fight Titans with his bare hands he said this Slayer HAS fought Titans with his bare hands, that's the difference. when Hugo refers to the Slayer testament he's clearly referring to the crusade and also the battle with the champion Titan, after all it does state that he had a mighty battle with the champion Titan. So as I said earlier Hugo's statement should be seen as clarification for events that we do not see unfold, because once more the issue here is the interpretation of the Codex.
Click to expand...
Except that, again, the Slayer is subsequently taken out by having a temple collapsed on top of him. After his fight against the Great One.

Like, let me just level with you here; even if we assume that the Blood Temples and the Hell Barges are two completely different things, the fact remains that the temple they collapsed on him incapped him badly enough for them to drag him to a tomb and then seal him in a sarcophagus with runes and enchantments. And even if we suppose that the temple collapsed upon him was larger than the ones atop the Hell Barges, that feat is not going to break into the same realm of power as what the Great One is currently rated as. Then you have the games outright stating that Crucible blades are the only thing left in the world that can neutralize a Titan, which comes from the lips of the Seraphim himself.

You have one quick statement made by the author VS a demonstrable anti-feat and surrounding context that contradicts that statement. There's no getting around that.

Again, I really do think he should just have an "At least X, possibly Y" rating that accounts for both sides of this argument. All this back and forth is doing is hammering home the fact that there are multiple ways all of this can be taken and that we're better off compromising instead of trying to jam him into one tier and one tier only.
 
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Most of you've stated is based off of assumption and lack of information rather then actual concrete evidence. The dark Lords can apply to anyone because the Slayer is the original DoomGuy from the classic Series, Meaning that there are several instances where the Slayer was wronged even before the meeting with Sentinels and the Priest, After all doom 64 shows us that the Slayer was wrecking hell way before the night sentinels came into play. Just because something has to be explained to him doesn't mean he doesn't already have some kind of knowledge about it. If that were the case, items like the Demonic Crucible according to your logic would not be available to him during his time in hell, As hayden had to explain what that was and what he had to use it for. As for Demon priest and The betrayer, your assuming that they are the same as the wretch and Hell priest but there is nothing suggesting that they are one and the same. the Slayer testament does not allude to the wretch being the betrayer.

The Slayer testament doesn't explain the demon priest in any way shape or form. There is no instance that the hell priests are ever referred to as demon priest or even considered to be the same entities.


My concern isn't putting the Slayer into a particular Tier, It's that he can be scaled to the Titans. The Champion Isn't the biggest or Strongest Titan within the Doom Series, That goes to Maligog in the ancient gods DLC. Even with the Blood temple falling on top of him, there's still fact that they couldn't kill Slayer and had to resort to sealing despite being neutralize for the time being, that's a very big detail within the context of the story and hell had access to other Titans that could finish him off in his dormant state at anytime.
Samuel Said that Only The Slayers Crucible Blade could Stop a Titan, Correct but he doesn't state that they are the only things that can damage a Titan. The Crucible was needed to Nullify The Icon Of Sins Power, Not once is it stated that the Crucible is the only way to hurt a Titan. It's implied that if the Slayer pull the crucible out of the Dreadnaught Titan, he would return to power and that why the Slayer broke the blade into him.
 
I will be making the following revisions to Classic Doomguy.

At least 9-B physically, 9-C to 9-A with most weapons, higher with the Berserk Sphere, BFG, and against demons with the Unmaker

Does anyone have any objections?
 
If there's better feats for Cyberdemons or BFG 9000 Classic era, that would be nice. But At least 9-A for them are reasonable placeholders. BFG should still have more force than an RPG-7/96 Megajoules and more heat than Baron Fireball that vaporizes people iirc. Cyberdemons were described as being tough as Missile launching Skyscrapers, but that sounds hyperbolic.
 
  • Hell Knight
    • 9-B? | "Tough as a dump truck and nearly as big, these Goliaths are the worst things on two legs since Tyrannosaurus rex." - Doom instruction manual.
  • Arachnotron (Doom 64)
    • At least 9-A? | "Think of the pain a Black Widow causes when you disturb her nest. Then think what happens when you stir up one the size of an M60 tank." - Doom 64 Manual
    • Scaling from a M1 Abram?
 
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So for the 9-A post sentienl key,would he have all his weapons + crucible or just SSG and crucible?

And will Doomguy’s 9-A key still scale to 0.07 tons?
 
The M1 Abrams page is outdated; it really shouldn't be any higher than 9-A. And we don't give durability ratings based on total destruction.
 
so what are we puting the doomslayer at?
at least 9-A? at least 9-A possibly 8-A? or just plain old 8-A
 
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