One Thread Under Doom: A Key for Sorcerer Supreme Doom

[Eseseso]

This seems reasonable.

Btw I forgot to mention I added one extra ability to the OP:

• Biological Manipulation (Easily removes the flesh from Sinthea Schmidt's skull with magic)

Does this look good to you?

(Also I love the scan since it's basically Doom showing how much he loathes bigots due to his own childhood as a victim of anti-Romani persecution)

 

[Lynieryz]

I was referring to when he stopped time against Dormammu

This was cast with the Eye of Agamotto at the beginning of the battle.


Without the Eye of Agamotto, he is unable to move within his own Time-Stop.

 

[Eseseso]

This was cast with the Eye of Agamotto at the beginning of the battle.


Without the Eye of Agamotto, he is unable to move within his own Time-Stop.

He literally moves his arms upwards to push himself out of Dormammu's way despite being in absolute agony.

(One of the best Doom scenes ever IMO)

 

[Lynieryz]

He literally moves his arms upwards to push himself out of Dormammu's way despite being in absolute agony.

(One of the best Doom scenes ever IMO)

Yes? I'm not denying that. The Time-Stop used against Dormammu was with the Eye of Agamotto buff.[In this case, he is able to move]

The Time-Stop he uses against the quartet is from the machine, and he can't move in it.

This was cast with the Eye of Agamotto at the beginning of the battle.


Without the Eye of Agamotto, he is unable to move within his own Time-Stop.

 

[That_moron2]

not even Doom himself being unable to reverse the spell

Spelling mistake

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Excellence616 @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @Maverick_Zero_X @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @FinePoint @SamanPatou @Starter_Pack @Eficiente @Adr10K @The_Impress @ExcelsisBerny

Are any of you willing to take a look here please?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have doubts on a solid Infinite speed being consistent tbh.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Eseseso]

I have doubts on a solid Infinite speed being consistent tbh.

How about Hypersonic, up to Infinite?

 

[Eficiente]

How about Hypersonic, up to Infinite?

Since a time I have noted that you use "up to" wrong. It's supposed to be used when the character is at their best on a stat for one reason or another. It's not to justify inconsistencies without a reason given as to how the character changes from 1 stat to another. Case in point, what makes Doom change from Hypersonic to Infinite speed? What makes him change from Infinite to Hypersonic? Is it just that he was more motivated? If so, the profile needs to say so.

Dormammu's Infinite speed scales to Odin's, who has "Varies up to Infinite" Speed. Going by Odin's own profile in his AP, at his weakest he would scale to Fane Foster Thor, whose Massively FTL+. Odin's AP also says "At his weakest, he is almost consistently still portrayed as comparable to the likes of Thor." but doesn't specify why this would be a Thor at that level.

It's a mess. Any reason to not use Dormammu's own feats on the main 616 universe rather than scale him to Odin?

 

[Eseseso]

Since a time I have noted that you use "up to" wrong. It's supposed to be used when the character is at their best on a stat for one reason or another. It's not to justify inconsistencies without a reason given as to how the character changes from 1 stat to another. Case in point, what makes Doom change from Hypersonic to Infinite speed? What makes him change from Infinite to Hypersonic? Is it just that he was more motivated? If so, the profile needs to say so.

His speed with magic in base varies up to Infinite, so I figured his Sorcerer Supreme self would be da same.

It's a mess. Any reason to not use Dormammu's own feats on the main 616 universe rather than scale him to Odin?

 

[Eficiente]

That circles back to the same issue. Why is base Dr. Doom "Relativistic+, up to Infinite with Magic"? We put it like that, we imply he has some kind of spell he can use to amp his speed to infinite speed. But I suspect he just got a few Infinite speed scaling feats in magic-related adventures and that's that. There is no mechanic that Doom can use to amp his speed.

I take issue with the scaling as well:

• "alongside Strange has fought and reacted to Mephisto (Doctor Strange: Triumph and Torment)(Infamous Iron Man #12)": Mephisto often holds back his power to such a degree that it has cost him defeats and humiliations:
  • Silver Surfer/Warlock: Resurrection issue 3: In Hell, he was harmed by Pip the Troll with a wrench, Drax, Gamora, and Moondragon attacking his mind and dropping a giant rock on him.
  • Avengers West Coast Vol 2 issue 52: When attacked from behind by a transformed Ebony (Agatha Harkness's cat), she brutalized Mephisto, apparently slashing him to ribbons, he then healed instantly and brutalized Ebony in return, the cat being stated to not be nearly powerful enough.
  • Even in Infamous Iron Man #12, one of the comics we list for Doom's speed scaling, as Mephisto is being defeated, he breaks the 4rd wall and starts ranting, then comes back on his own to be deafeated by the heroes. It's easy to raise an eyebrow and say he doesn't care about being defeated. He even talks about looking down on picking up fights with mortals.
• As for Dr. Strange's Infinite speed:
  • "Baron Mordo whose power was used to fuel an incantation which sent him hurling across countless dimensions, at a speed which "defies mortal calculation"": That was the incantation, and the Dimensional Travel in it.
  • "With the Scroll of Watoomb, he could instantly return after Adam Warlock sent him to the edge of the universe through the Infinity Gauntlet.": He wasn't at the edge of the universe, he was at a point where stars could not be seen, and you can reach distances where no individual star is bright enough to be seen as a point of light without reaching the end of the universe. Even then, he had to use 1 specific spell to do this, showing he can't do it on his own.
  • "Has fought and reacted to Mephisto on multiple occasions": Same as before.
  • Whatever happened with Dr. Strange keeping up with the Wrecking Crew, Spider-Man, and other Marvel characters at that level? How is that the outlier over this?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Eficiente.

 

[Eseseso]

That circles back to the same issue. Why is base Dr. Doom "Relativistic+, up to Infinite with Magic"? We put it like that, we imply he has some kind of spell he can use to amp his speed to infinite speed. But I suspect he just got a few Infinite speed scaling feats in magic-related adventures and that's that. There is no mechanic that Doom can use to amp his speed.

I mean magic can be used to amp stats

I take issue with the scaling as well:

• "alongside Strange has fought and reacted to Mephisto (Doctor Strange: Triumph and Torment)(Infamous Iron Man #12)": Mephisto often holds back his power to such a degree that it has cost him defeats and humiliations:
  • Silver Surfer/Warlock: Resurrection issue 3: In Hell, he was harmed by Pip the Troll with a wrench, Drax, Gamora, and Moondragon attacking his mind and dropping a giant rock on him.
  • Avengers West Coast Vol 2 issue 52: When attacked from behind by a transformed Ebony (Agatha Harkness's cat), she brutalized Mephisto, apparently slashing him to ribbons, he then healed instantly and brutalized Ebony in return, the cat being stated to not be nearly powerful enough.
  • Even in Infamous Iron Man #12, one of the comics we list for Doom's speed scaling, as Mephisto is being defeated, he breaks the 4rd wall and starts ranting, then comes back on his own to be deafeated by the heroes. It's easy to raise an eyebrow and say he doesn't care about being defeated. He even talks about looking down on picking up fights with mortals.
• As for Dr. Strange's Infinite speed:
  • "Baron Mordo whose power was used to fuel an incantation which sent him hurling across countless dimensions, at a speed which "defies mortal calculation"": That was the incantation, and the Dimensional Travel in it.
  • "With the Scroll of Watoomb, he could instantly return after Adam Warlock sent him to the edge of the universe through the Infinity Gauntlet.": He wasn't at the edge of the universe, he was at a point where stars could not be seen, and you can reach distances where no individual star is bright enough to be seen as a point of light without reaching the end of the universe. Even then, he had to use 1 specific spell to do this, showing he can't do it on his own.
  • "Has fought and reacted to Mephisto on multiple occasions": Same as before.
  • Whatever happened with Dr. Strange keeping up with the Wrecking Crew, Spider-Man, and other Marvel characters at that level? How is that the outlier over this?

He was MFTL+ before Herald speed got upgraded to Infinite.

I agree that his low-end speed stuff should be noted on the profile, so something like "Varies from Hypersonic to MFTL+" (Scaling to Borgo who is equal to Silver Surfer) for his standard self would be the best alternative

 

[Eficiente]

I mean magic can be used to amp stats

Well, I am bringing up as an issue how our profiles use vagueness and ambiguity to get away with some questionable claims. Please don't give me a technicality like this unless you're willing to have Doom's profile claim that he definitely amped his speed with magic off-screen. At that point, how many more Marvel profiles would need to make similar claims?

 

[Eseseso]

Well, I am bringing up as an issue how our profiles use vagueness and ambiguity to get away with some questionable claims. Please don't give me a technicality like this unless you're willing to have Doom's profile claim that he definitely amped his speed with magic off-screen. At that point, how many more Marvel profiles would need to make similar claims?

He was shown fighting side-by-side with Strange constantly whenever he used magic, especially since he stated in T&T that his standard armor simply could not match Doctor Strange's magic power.

 

[Eficiente]

So the argument is that Dr. Doom "amped his speed with magic off-panel during certain circumstances," and that this is more logical than "Doom being portrayed with the same speed as always, even if that means those circumstances are outliers, be it for Doom or Strange. Or that Dr. Strange lacks Infinite speed." Is this correct?

 

[Eseseso]

So the argument is that Dr. Doom "amped his speed with magic off-panel during certain circumstances," and that this is more logical than "Doom being portrayed with the same speed as always, even if that means those circumstances are outliers, be it for Doom or Strange. Or that Dr. Strange lacks Infinite speed." Is this correct?

The argument is that Doom's magic has been shown to let him keep up with people much faster than his base.

But honestly, this is derailing the thread and should be saved for a separate CRT

 

[DemiiPowa]

No one rivals doom.

 

[Eseseso]

No one rivals doom.

Even from the future...Even from the past...

 

[Antvasima]

Doom is a Villain Sue/Villain Stu genocidally petty fascist egomaniac and supremacist, not remotely something to be admired.

 

[DemiiPowa]

Doom is a Villain Sue/Villain Stu genocidally petty fascist egomaniac and supremacist, not remotely something to be admired.

Doom is the greatest and you will respect him as such

 

[Antvasima]

I don't respect people who abuse their entitlements to be absolutely morally awful.

 

[Eseseso]

Doom is a Villain Sue/Villain Stu genocidally petty fascist egomaniac and supremacist, not remotely something to be admired.

I wouldn't call him a villain sue given that the entire point of OWUD was that his narcissism and cruelty are his biggest weaknesses.

 

[Eficiente]

The argument is that Doom's magic has been shown to let him keep up with people much faster than his base.

But honestly, this is derailing the thread and should be saved for a separate CRT

If it affects directly how we judge stats proposed here then we can incorporate the topic in this thread. CRTs can incorporate new topics under such context, as it has happened many many times before.

Like I said, for the second time, I am bringing up as an issue how our profiles use vagueness and ambiguity to get away with some questionable claims. You portray it in a way that removes information that shows how wrong the claim is. That is an issue. You don't like the way I portrayed it? That's fine; Portray it yourself, but be transparent about it. Meaning that any normie reading Doom's profile would know he amps his speed with magic off-panel during certain circumstances, and how he just doesn't do this every other time he's not moving at Infinite speed. If they come out of the profile not knowing that, we are failing at constructing the profile.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Eficiente regarding that I think that many of our Marvel Comics pages have horribly exaggerated statistics, but that likely applies for several other verses I have noticed in this wiki as well.

 

[Eseseso]

Let's just save it for a separate thread

 

[Eficiente]

Whatever we choose, but we're not overworked on this thread. Is it a topic that directly affects how we judge a stat proposed in this thread? The answer is yes.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you have in mind?

 

[AsterReal]

Wouldn't a simple solution be to just give it its base speed and add "higher" through magic?

 

[Lynieryz]

I disagree with turning this CRT into a verse-wide review of stats. This is derailment in its purest form; this thread never proposed changing what's already accepted, but rather a new Key that scales to what's already accepted on the Wiki.

Marvel profiles are already bad as they are, and doing verse-wide fast-food revisions out of nowhere will surely destroy what little they have left. This is something to do carefully, going through hundreds of comic book issues, not randomly because you don't like something.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I disagree with turning this CRT into a verse-wide review of stats. This is derailment in its purest form; this thread never proposed changing what's already accepted, but rather a new Key that scales to what's already accepted on the Wiki.

Marvel profiles are already bad as they are, and doing verse-wide fast-food revisions out of nowhere will surely destroy what little they have left. This is something to do carefully, going through hundreds of comic book issues, not randomly because you don't like something.

You are not wrong, but at the same time I know that if nothing is done now, it's gonna be delayed until the end of times.

 

[Eseseso]

I disagree with turning this CRT into a verse-wide review of stats. This is derailment in its purest form; this thread never proposed changing what's already accepted, but rather a new Key that scales to what's already accepted on the Wiki.

Marvel profiles are already bad as they are, and doing verse-wide fast-food revisions out of nowhere will surely destroy what little they have left. This is something to do carefully, going through hundreds of comic book issues, not randomly because you don't like something.

Couldn't have said it better myself

 

[Antvasima]

I disagree with turning this CRT into a verse-wide review of stats. This is derailment in its purest form; this thread never proposed changing what's already accepted, but rather a new Key that scales to what's already accepted on the Wiki.

Marvel profiles are already bad as they are, and doing verse-wide fast-food revisions out of nowhere will surely destroy what little they have left. This is something to do carefully, going through hundreds of comic book issues, not randomly because you don't like something.

This makes sense to me.

 

[Eficiente]

To note, Lynieryz is exaggerating by calling it a "verse-wide review." At worst, it covers Doom's speed in the proposed key, and Doom's speed at base. At best, it covers how Mephisto can hold back his speed and Dr. Strange's speed, but even then the former can be ignored, and the latter can be said to be an outlier for Doom and left to handle another day. It doesn't cover any other profile.

Lynieryz is also exaggerating by calling it "derailment in its purest form" because, like I said;

• "If it affects directly how we judge stats proposed here then we can incorporate the topic in [a] thread. CRTs can incorporate new topics under such context, as it has happened many many times before."

Or is it that we disagree with this being the way the wiki has been handled for years? Should I come out of this thread thinking "I shouldn't have tried to bring up the topic of Doom's speed being wrong on a thread that essentially makes a duplicate claim, doing so was derailment in its purest form"?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I think that evaluations regarding Doctor Doom's statistics seem relevant for this thread, but that a downgrade of our Marvel Comics pages in general would be better to handle in another thread.