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Doom Eternal Revision Thread Part 4

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So what we are getting at is 9-A/8-B doomguy?

Despite all the stuff with the divinity machine,being able to tank hits from the Icon and WOG said he can do it with or without weapons.

This would be especially ridiculous since the Doomslayer is supposed to be a massive upgrade to the OG Doomguy canonically.
 
What stuff with the Machine?

That it amped him

The Icon that is game mechanics?

Or the fact the weapons is just more likely since every other instance of Titan Slaying is with the same weapon?

But no he's totally a High 6-C god tier
 
This guy has been ignoring the better parts of my points for the duration of the discussion I’ll resume this once he’s rested and not delirious and clearly upset like he is now. See you guys later.
 
DTG499 said:
This guy has been ignoring the better parts of my points for the duration of the discussion I’ll resume this once he’s rested and not delirious and clearly upset like he is now. See you guys later.
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How have I ignored your points

I've made debunks to them and outright explained why they're wrong and you seem insistent on pushing the same 5 feats

Also IDK why you think I'm delirious. It's the middle of the day for me (And am enjoying cocoa)

But sure you do you dude
 
Alright.

I never said he should scale to the high 6-C feat,don’t accuse me of that.

The divinity machine grants them power on par with the seraphim and has been alluded to give Davoth his strength by WOG.

The Icon is supposed to be his equal and archenemy,not some random barge who can 1 shot him if he can get a hit off.Theres nothing that would even allude to that case and literally none of the doomslayers arsenal would have been capable of harming him.He must have beaten the shit out of him.
 
What about the Slayer being superior to the Fireborn Barons? They can tank BFG shots pretty casually, and he can still tear them apart.
 
ThisThingisReallyBroken said:
Alright.

I never said he should scale to the high 6-C feat,don’t accuse me of that.

The divinity machine grants them power on par with the seraphim and has been alluded to give Davoth his strength by WOG.

The Icon is supposed to be his equal and archenemy,not some random barge who can 1 shot him if he can get a hit off.Theres nothing that would even allude to that case and literally none of the doomslayers arsenal would have been capable of harming him.He must have beaten the shit out of him.
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I didn't

Made a point

Again though Seraphim has no truly quantifiable feats by himself and we're not touching Davoth scaling until Ancient Gods 2.0
Also Marauders are also empowered by the Machine so you'd be advocating for them scaling as well

It is but we have no indication of what Slayer did. Gameplay shows it's his weapons and it's not outside the realm of possibility the BFG and Unmaker weren't used but we don;t know for certain if he did this canonically

Also the Crucible clearly harmed him...

@Kieran Again tho Heat Revisions may preclude it being 8-A to do so

8-B? Maybe
 
@Hellbeast

No where does it state the divinity machine ever powered up dead sentinels.It only ressurected them,that point is still valid.

Yes,but according to WOG all crucibles are created equally powerful.Its most likely the slayer’s own physical strength that gives it such power to face against titans(no other sentienl could do so).
 
If it ressurected them and transformed them into Marauders (Which are apparently stronger going by Firestorm) then yes it would power them up

Except we see Crucibles from other sources kill Titans so it's not just a strength thing

Nowhere is Slayer's strength alluded to being a reason for why it's so effective
 
I have no problems with 8-B Fireborns and BFG.
Dammit i'm now realising the Heat Revisions will almost certainly render my Microwave Beam calc obsolete.

However, with the Titan scaling stuff, the Icon of Sin is clearly far above the other titans. Which would put him above their 8-A calc (Once it's accepted), Doomguy should logically scale to the Icon in one way or another, via being "The only hope for humanity" or something along those lines. The Slayer was the only person capable of taking it down, and should logically be on the same level.
 
Nor do I

It is but again I'm no convinced it scales physically. Slayer is the last hope but again my point on the Crucible stands
 
@Hellbeast

I’ll need a source that says they are more powerful than regular sentinels.No where in the codex mentions anything like that.

Source? The crucible that killed the dreadnought in Taras Nabad was the slayer’s

Unless any average crucible could do such a thing(which it can’t),there is nothing not alluding to that case.
 
I’m also really iffy on the Icon not scaling to the argent tower explosion.It should still be far superior than any force generated by that explosion (and doesn’t have the ability of argent absorption either).
 
Anyone could wield a Crucible blade iirc, as shown when Hayden activated it at the end of 2016. If it were as easy as getting a Crucible, and stabbing the Icon with it, Hayden wouldn't be worrying so much about the imminent danger to the planet etc.
 
I mean here's the thing

Hayden was cut in half and the Icon was so feared because it's mere presence opened the possibility of Earth falling

Secondly I'm not saying it's easy. Slayer had to reforge it and the one in 2016 was the only one Hayden found
 
A crucible is just an energy blade.

The marauder wields a “crucible axe”

The other night sentinels wielded crucible blades and hammers.

It’s the one who wields the blade that matters,else any other idiot with a crucible energy weapon would have been able to kill the Titan.The Doomslayer only had to reforge his due to losing his other blade in the Titan’s chest.

^^^^

Not to mention this was his only blade for a while,especially if it was to the point he needed to reforge one after losing it.He was later trapped in hell and defeated another titan as well.
 
Calling it just a blade is reductive

It's a powerful weapon capable of nullifying Resurrections

Yeah so it's a weapon used by Sentinels, how does that disprove it's needed to kill Titans

Except no. It has to have involved a Crucible since that's 1) The only way to keep a Titan down) and 2) He's referenced to wield a blade in the Slayer's Testament, implying he has a Crucible
 
There has to be some way in which the Slayer scale though, either the in-game stuff is canon with him tearing apart the Icon with weapons, or he just took it on physically, he almost killed the Icon without the Crucible, it simply finished the job in the final fight, and ensured it wouldn't resurrect afterwards.
 
It’s disproving that the slayer absolutely needed it to harm the titans and had no other way of doing so.That was the only crucible’s use,of preventing ressurection.WOG already stated that not only are all crucible blades are created equal and the Doomslayer can physically overpower titans with just his fists.Why wasn’t there a blade in the Titan slayed in hell?

My point being that the crucible doesn’t play that big of a factor in the slayer’s fight with a titan,since it is as strong as all other sentinel blades.It was the slayer’s strength that did them in.
 
Also the fact that Sentinels needed Atlans to kill titans with similar Argent tech instead of simply fighting them head on seems to further prove that Crucible weapons are only used to finish titans, Atlans likely lead the battles against the Titans, and the Crucible weaponry stops them from resurrecting, hence why they are still stuck in the titans, they cant exactly be broken off like the Slayers blade due to their size.
 
KieranH10 said:
2) The BFG has an 8-B calc too tho doesn't it?
Click to expand...
It shouldn't, honestly. That calc being used for raw AP/durability scaling ignores the explicit function of the weapon itself:
DOOM 2016 Codex said:
This weapon delivers streams of supercharged Argent Energy to multiple targets, and is to some extent self-guiding. The streams will seek any cache of Argent it can find - usually demons (or human test subjects that have had Argent beacons surgically implanted). When the streams find their target, they released all of their stored energy in a fraction of second, delivering an electrical shock that instantly boils the blood and fatty tissue of the recipient. Spontaneous explosion of the subject often follows.
Click to expand...
The calc is based on something that happens in the 2016 game, so this codex entry very much applies to it. That raises two major issues:
  1. The BFG-9000, as stated in the 2016 game's codex, works by seeking existing Argent Energy caches within the targets being fired at, meaning it's unusable against anything that doesn't contain Argent Energy (or another setting's equivalent) and is incapable of producing its desired effect unless there is a cache of Argent Energy nearby.
  2. The BFG not only seeks these caches directly, but also specifically instant-boils the blood and fatty tissues of the target. As such, it should be taken as ignoring standard durability entirely.
The numbers are impressive, sure, but outside of gameplay (which needs the bosses to not be one-shot by this weapon so that the player can't breeze past them by shooting them with the BFG once), there is no indication that any of the enemies withstand this weapon on the inside, or that it has to breach their durability to affect them. Indeed, one of the bosses who tanks the weapon in gameplay ends up obliterated by it in a cutscene. (Which, ironically, is where the aforementioned 8-B calc comes from. Oversight on everyone's part, that.)

3) I thought he took on the titans with his bare hands?
Click to expand...
You'll need a citation for this. Lore in 2016 explicitly states that he had his sword during his rampage, and there is no indication that he wasn't using it against the Titan.

Slayer Testament I said:
He wore the crown of the Night Sentinels, and those who tasted the bite of his sword named him...The Doom Slayer.
Click to expand...
Slayer Testament V said:
But from the depths arose The Great One, a champion mightier than all who had come before. The Titan, of immeasurable power and ferocity. He strode upon the plain and faced the Doom Slayer, and a mighty battle was fought on the desolate plains. The Titan fought with the fury of the countless that had fallen at the Doom Slayer's hand, but there fell the Titan, and in his defeat the shadow horde were routed.
Click to expand...

No evidence whatsoever that he took it on with his bare fists. In fact, these passages in conjunction with what we learn from Eternal indicate the opposite; that the Crucible was used during the fight.

ThisThingisReallyBroken said:
another piece of evidence would be the fact that he can tank hits from the icon.
Click to expand...
KieranH10 said:
There has to be some way in which the Slayer scale though, either the in-game stuff is canon with him tearing apart the Icon with weapons, or he just took it on physically, he almost killed the Icon without the Crucible, it simply finished the job in the final fight, and ensured it wouldn't resurrect afterwards.
Click to expand...
No, no, these don't work.

All of this is demonstrated through gameplay which, in this franchise, is repeatedly contradictory to the lore and statements scaling-wise. Examples:
Trying to use any sort of gameplay events as evidence of scaling is problematic, because the events which happen in gameplay repeatedly do not mesh with what is stated, shown and otherwise evidenced within the cutscenes and lore.

Several people in this thread said:
Urdak feat
Click to expand...
A lot of you seem to have misinterpreted what actually happened in this scene.



The biggest problem isn't how very non-specific the "shaking" in this feat is. No, the real problem is that it clearly wasn't caused by the Khan Makyr's orb. A whole six seconds pass after it explodes, during which no shaking happens whatsoever despite there being other visible aftereffects of its destruction. (Such as the immediate changes in atmosphere and weather patterns that come about) In fact, the shaking doesn't start until the exact point in which the "Mysterious Voice" yells "NOOOOOO" in dramatic, Darth Vader-esque fashion.

The only interpretation in which this could have been a result of the orb (that doesn't completely ignore the above) would involve the voice coming from the orb after it exploded. And even if you do run with that interpretation (which is almost completely unsubstantiated), this invalidates the event as a legitimate "feat" anyway, since it's just a classic example of some loud and booming voice causing the camera to shake.
 
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I think this entire revision and the scaling of the verse as a whole needs to be reevaluated from the ground up. A lot of seriously questionable shit has been allowed to slip through the cracks, and while I don't disagree with everything, I've been seeing a lot of outright wrong information and the whole thing has become a mess of very generous and liberal interpretations.

I suppose we can start with the fact that scaling anything based on gameplay is not a good idea when it comes to this franchise, for the reasons I already outlined. That's a very large part of what's causing so many problems here, and frankly, the gameplay elements that contradict lore, statements, cutscenes, etc. should have been disregarded a long time ago. "Lore first, gameplay second" has always been our policy. Or at least that's what's supposed to be the case.
 
I’ll bet my money on a 9-A Doomslayer /s

I’m really disagreeing with that notion about the BFG btw.We have 0 lore to go off the bosses not being able to tank BFG shots despite them doing so in gameplay

The cyberdemon/spider mastermind wouldn’t have been presented as such formidable threats if they couldn’t tank at least 1 BFG shot.Cant’t we just give them resistance to the dura negating property?
 
There is indeed a lot of stuff to go over for Doom; Hell is indeed accepted as Low 1-C Cosmology, but that doesn't mean anyone other then the Sentient realm Hell scales from it. We don't know if any of the gods actually created Hell. And the BFG 9000 is described as a weapon that vaporizes nearly everything, and that also makes it a heat based weapon. Which withstanding heat I already explained why that doesn't automatically scale to the amount of force. The battery feat is also in similar situations; it's proof Doomslayer can withstand 7-C lightning, but not sure about a 7-C punch to the face. Unlike Weekly or Hellbeast, I think the Titan scaling should still be solid; regardless of Doomslayer needing a Crucible to finish the Titan, he still physically over powers and thus should scale from the GPE of the Titan. Plus, there's the fact that the Crucible can kill Titans but it can't kill Doomslayer in 2016.

But some of the bosses and mini-bosses might need to scale from other things given the BFG calc shenanigans.
 
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ThisThingisReallyBroken said:
I’m really disagreeing with that notion about the BFG btw.We have 0 lore to go off the bosses not being able to tank BFG shots despite them doing so in gameplay

The cyberdemon/spider mastermind wouldn’t have been presented as such formidable threats if they couldn’t tank at least 1 BFG shot.Cant’t we just give them resistance to the dura negating property?
Click to expand...
The BFG as it was in the 2016 game wasn't fully developed in-universe during the events prior to the game's start. The only existing version of the weapon was a singular prototype, yet to be mass-produced on any scale whatsoever.

What I mean to say is, it wasn't available to infantry, security, higher-ranking soldiers, or really anybody during the Cyberdemon's rampage, so they never would have had a chance to use it on the Cyberdemon.

Also, even if it were available, it's not likely that they would try. The Cyberdemon was developed as a weapon to be used by the UAC. A lot of time and resources were put into its regrowth, engineering and augmentation, which means that-- no matter how much damage it caused afterwards-- it was valuable to the UAC and not something they could just dump in the trash and replace. Using an experimental superweapon like the BFG on it could have destroyed it beyond the point of them being able to piece it back together, which would have been very much against the corporate agenda of that time.

As for the Spider Mastermind, I've already provided reasoning for why it shouldn't scale to anything the BFG does; a cutscene shows that the BFG kills it outright, and very messily at that. Between that and the fact that the final kill involves using the BFG even if you've depleted all of its ammo during the boss fight, I think it's safe to say that the cutscene takes precedence and the gameplay instances of the Mastermind tanking the weapon should be ignored.
 
Yeah, Cyberdemon and Mastermind would probably be downgraded; especially since the latter getting vaped was literally the basis of the original 8-B calc. And the Classic BFG also has no where near as much firepower as the 2016 or Eternal remodels.
 
Just to hammer home my point about the UAC most likely not being willing to using the BFG on the Cyberdemon even if the weapon were available for use:

UAC REPORT FILE: DHVZI9L4 said:
Repeated attempts to subdue the beast prove unsuccessful as when exhausted, the Cyberdemon simply replenishes its life force from the Accumulator and attacks again with greater ferocity. Only by removing the Argent implant can the beast be restrained. The Cyberdemon remains in stasis until a suitable method of control can be found.
Click to expand...
They're not trying to kill it. They were never trying to kill it. They want it preserved until they can find a way to control it. Using something like the BFG on it would be counterintuitive to that goal.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Unlike Weekly, the Titan scaling should still be solid; regardless of Doomslayer needing a Crucible to finish the Titan, he still physically over powers and thus should scale from the GPE of the Titan. Plus, there's the fact that the Crucible can kill Titans but it can't kill Doomslayer in 2016.
Click to expand...
When did h do this? I thought it was agreed that the Slayer only beat the Titan because of the Crucible's sealing hax that works exclusively on demons?
 
@WeeklyBattles I meant to include "I think". But, Crucible isn't beyond sealing hax, but it's literally stated he physically subdues and overpowers them in the lore. It just means Titans could be stonewalls or they have Immortality that requires extra stuff to bypass.
 
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