Doom Eternal Revision Thread Part 4

[DTG499]

No the problem is that doomguy does have other 7-C feats. The argent tower feat and the titan slaying feat

 

[Sir_sun_man]

he has potential low 7C feats

 

[DTG499]

@Firestorm808 what would the inverse law calc from the argent tower blast come out to? 7-C right?

 

[DTG499]

Also the BFG 9K has the potential to scale above the ion catapult from the statement of it being the strongest weapon in the UAC.

 

[Firestorm808]

@DTG499 Yes, 7-C.

 

[Hellbeast]

And hellbeast just keeps saying over and over again this is how we do it and never explains why we do it. I’m convinced he doesn’t have an answer and that he is just parroting what an admin or mod told him. So I would like one of them to explain it properly to me.

I am simply asking questions at this point.

Hey if my word isn't sufficient, please ask Weekly or any other staff member about the stuff like absorption feats or Surface Area

Can guarantee you they'll say the same as I. I also find your point about me "parroting" amusing since you've brought up the same two 7-C feats this thread has spent half it's life span debating, completely ignoring the counter points

Also the BFG 9K has the potential to scale above the ion catapult from the statement of it being the strongest weapon in the UAC.

If you read the thread then you'd know this is false

The statement about the BFG being the strongest weapon in the UAC was before the Demonic Invasion of Earth and the subsequent militarisation of the UAC and ARC

There's no reason to assume it's still the strongest, especially when the modifications leading to the BFG 10000 already prove it isn't the be all and end all of the human weapons in the setting as of Eternal

@DTG499 Yes, 7-C.

Ok but does this account for Surface Area? Which seems to be what we lean to now judging by the Boys calculations done a while ago

Something I would like to bring up, The Dreadnaught Titan isn't the first exposure to Titans that the Sentinels had. Before Hell or The Slayer, The Sentinels had to fight the Ancestral Titans who just like them were enhanced by Wraith Energy.

Here's the thing tho

What enhancements were these Titans given?

The fact they seem enhanced implies they're above the normal and I'd have to question why they would not have been defeated by the Crucibles or Atlan Mechs

Especially if this conflict with the Titans is the first, potentially fathering those technologies in the first place

 

[DTG499]

If you read the thread then you'd know this is false

The statement about the BFG being the strongest weapon in the UAC was before the Demonic Invasion of Earth and the subsequent militarisation of the UAC and ARC

You need to read to codexes more bother Here is the statement after the demon invasion

 

[DTG499]

The 7-C absorption feat will count as long as we have all these other 7-C feats to go with it.
7-C titan
7-C BFG
7-C argent tower
7-C argent cell

 

[KieranH10]

Titans are Barely above baseline Low 7-C

The BFG was rejected for the same reason the BFG10K scaling was. It clearly isn't on that level by any means, it's only other feats are vaporizing demons, which ranges from tier 9 to tier 8. The statement likely means that the BFG is the strongest handheld weapon in their desposal, unless we want to upgrade the 9K to High 6-A, and consequently also upgrade all of the bosses and even Fireborn Barons and psuedo-bosses to High 6-A.

Haven't seen the Argent tower calc yet so I cant comment on that tbh.

Isn't the Argent Cell feat the Absorption feat?

 

[DTG499]

Titans are Barely above baseline Low 7-C

The BFG was rejected for the same reason the BFG10K scaling was. It clearly isn't on that level by any means, it's only other feats are vaporizing demons, which ranges from tier 9 to tier 8. The statement likely means that the BFG is the strongest handheld weapon in their desposal, unless we want to upgrade the 9K to High 6-A, and consequently also upgrade all of the bosses and even Fireborn Barons and psuedo-bosses to High 6-A.

Haven't seen the Argent tower calc yet so I cant comment on that tbh.

Isn't the Argent Cell feat the Absorption feat?

Doomguy stomped the titans so he would still be 7-C

The BFG is the strongest weapon period, nothing about it being the strongest handheld. The demons won’t scale to it, them taking more than one hit would be a game mechanic limitation. Just like how it takes 2 crucible swings to kill a doom hunter, how the crucible doesn’t work on the marauder’s shield, just like how the icon of sin is able to be hurt by a standard issue plasma rifle, ect. The lore scaling takes priority over the game play scaling.

The Absorption feat will count as long as we have other 7-C feats to go with it. Which we do.

 

[KieranH10]

That's not how it works at all. You cant get into a higher tier via stomping unless you stomped someone who's pretty much as far into a tier as you can get. The Titans are almost baseline.

So you want a High 6-A BFG9K? Even though the 9K is literally a previous model and in no way can logically be superior to a kilometre long version of itself that needs an entire station warning to tell when it's firing.

I mean the way you're going the Slayer will be High 6-A. so at this point you're arguing against yourself.

I am strongly against the 9K scaling anywhere near the 10K.

 

[Firestorm808]

We agreed prior that the BFG 10K does not scale to the BFG 9K.

Regarding the Ion Catapult, it's unclear whether it's considered the same category of weapon by the UAC as the BFG 9K

 

[KieranH10]

I personally do not think we should scale to the Ion Catapult, since it's pretty much the same reasoning as the 10K, the 9K is much weaker and is a handheld weapon, whereas the 10K and Ion Catapult are a completely separate category.

 

[DTG499]

That's not how it works at all. You cant get into a higher tier via stomping unless you stomped someone who's pretty much as far into a tier as you can get. The Titans are almost baseline.

So you want a High 6-A BFG9K? Even though the 9K is literally a previous model and in no way can logically be superior to a kilometre long version of itself that needs an entire station warning to tell when it's firing.

I mean the way you're going the Slayer will be High 6-A. so at this point you're arguing against yourself.

I am strongly against the 9K scaling anywhere near the 10K.

When we have other feats putting him at 7-C yes that’s how it would work.

No I’m not trying to scale the 10K to the 9K, the 10K is just an extension of the 9K. There was no specification of handheld weapons only. The statement is “the most powerful weapon” so no reason not to scale that to the ion catapult, i mean we already scaled it to the laser and that isn’t a handheld. I don’t see why would need specification of it being the in handheld category or not, it’s not vague it’s pretty straight forward.

 

[KieranH10]

You cant use a Low 7-C feat as evidence of 7-C.

Yes, but by that logic, the 9K would scale to the 10K, which it doesn't, I don't see why this should be different.

 

[DTG499]

this website does things like that all the time. Pre crisis Superman’s page has his universal feat as evidence for his 2-C tier. The diadact’s casual 8-A feat is used as evidence for his low 7-B tier. Yujiro hanma’s 8-B feat of being struck by lighting is used as evidence for his 7-C tier. When we have other 7-C feats to go along with doomguy’s low 7-C stomp it can be used as evidence.

No because the High 6-A would fall into the category of BFG and would also be a clear outlier. Where as we have other 7-C feats to back it up.

 

[KieranH10]

Fair enough, I thought you were claiming that stomping the Titans was a 7-C feat, if you plan to use it as a Low 7-C supporting feat I suppose that makes sense.

We don't have other 7-C feats for the BFG.

 

[DTG499]

Well let’s be honest. We don’t have any non gameplay feats for the BFG in general, so there isn’t anything going against the 7-C. The in gameplay weapon scaling is all over the place. The destroyer blade and super shotgun is able to kill a cyber demon in 2 hits with quad damage on, so by down scaling the ballista mod and super shotty would 1/4 of the BFG’s AP. Not very consistent now is it?

 

[KieranH10]

Eh, I think weapons are fine as they are tbh.

I'm fine with a Low 7-C Slayer scaling to the titans, and the Argent Tower calc seems fine too. I'm still against with the Energy Absorption since I don't believe that's how we treat absorption feats on the wiki.

 

[Hellbeast]

I’m still against 7-C myself

All of the feats DTG is bringing up still have massive holes in them that me and king have spent half the thread poking at

 

[KieranH10]

Oh btw Hell got downgraded to 2-B.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Oh really? hmm so i suppose no lowe 1-C slayer or davoth
but 2-B is pretty neat too'

 

[DTG499]

The wiki is against absorption feats when there aren’t any other feats on the same tier of absorption, in this case there are.

King’s alternatives for scaling doomguy to 7-C is full of far more holes hits as Mic pointed out when he debated him about it.

 

[DTG499]

Oh really? hmm so i suppose no lowe 1-C slayer or davoth
but 2-B is pretty neat too'

The father is still 2-A

 

[Sir_sun_man]

is he? well 2-A slayer

 

[DTG499]

Eh, I think weapons are fine as they are tbh.

I'm fine with a Low 7-C Slayer scaling to the titans, and the Argent Tower calc seems fine too. I'm still against with the Energy Absorption since I don't believe that's how we treat absorption feats on the wiki.

Well we can scale the other weapons to the demons because we have seen them used by UAC soldiers against them. The BFG is not the same case.

 

[Hellbeast]

The father is still 2-A

Yes
The Father who currently scales to no one but himself and davoth

And once again the 7-C feats your using have holes in them as we have discussed prior

 

[DTG499]

Also, to further cement doomguy’s scaling to the titans. The sentinels at the time of the dreadnaught invasion had access to the Atlans that used giant crucible blades to keep them from coming back to life. Knowing that the sentinels would lose, the seraphim brought doomguy to the divinity machine to empower him to the point of having the ability to beat the dreadnaught. Something the atlans couldn’t do.

 

[DTG499]

Yes
The Father who currently scales to no one but himself and davoth

And once again the 7-C feats your using have holes in them as we have discussed prior

The non 7-C feats have way more holes in them. As mic pointed out.

 

[Hellbeast]

Also, to further cement doomguy’s scaling to the titans. The sentinels at the time of the dreadnaught invasion had access to the Atlans that used giant crucible blades to keep them from coming back to life. Knowing that the sentinels would lose, the seraphim brought doomguy to the divinity machine to empower him to the point of having the ability to beat the dreadnaught. Something the atlans couldn’t do.

The codex set right after thosnmentions Slayer used the Cricible to slay the Titan

Thus it’s yet another example of the Slayer needing the Crucibles to kill a Titan

The interpretation he scales physically outright isn’t there as you claim

The non 7-C feats have way more holes in them. As mic pointed out.

Also how do they?

Especially when I haven’t actually provided the feats I suggest we scale from

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

come on guys.

This will never end if we don’t compromise.

At least 9-A(Far superior than OG doomguy)Possibly Low 7-C (has slayed and is possibly physically comparable to the titans.Withstood the argent tower explosion,possibly superior to the ion catapult)

 

[DTG499]

The codex set right after thosnmentions Slayer used the Cricible to slay the Titan

Thus it’s yet another example of the Slayer needing the Crucibles to kill a Titan

The interpretation he scales physically outright isn’t there as you claim


Also how do they?

Especially when I haven’t actually provided the feats I suggest we scale from

Yes the atlans use a crucible to keep the titans down as well. So clearly the titans must be bested in physical combat FIRST and then have the crucible placed in them to keep them dead The atlans were not able to beat the dreadnaught in psychical combat but doomguy was.


The only alternative scaling option we have for post divinty machine are the 9-A calcs which is a HUGE hole in the scaling and the plot of the story. Doomguy scaled above those 9-A calcs before he went into the divinty machine, to say that he is the same level is asinine. The 7-C tier is the best logical option for post divinty machine doomguy, since we have more 7-C feats than 9-A feats.

 

[DTG499]

come on guys.

This will never end if we don’t compromise.

At least 9-A(Far superior than OG doomguy)Possibly Low 7-C (has slayed and is possibly physically comparable to the titans.Withstood the argent tower explosion,possibly superior to the ion catapult)

I mean let’s look at this statistically, you just listed 3 7-C feats and only 1 9-A feat. That right there should be reason enough for a solid 7-C rating.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

But like half the supporters disagree for some pretty reasonable reasons

 

[DTG499]

They have provided far less reasonable alternative scaling or none at all.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

You say that

All am I saying is that we have been arguing the same thing for the past 6 pages.We need to move on to other stuff.

 

[DTG499]

But like half the supporters disagree for some pretty reasonable reasons

Look the sentinels needed to use giant mech atlans in order to fight the titans. They had access to crucibles but only the giant mechs were strong enough to use them.

 

[DTG499]

You say that

All am I saying is that we have been arguing the same thing for the past 6 pages.We need to move on to other stuff.

And for the last 6 pages he has not brought up a single alternative scaling option.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Okay I was gonna ask who Davoth but then I read about it and it's stated (at least from the article I read on the DOOM wiki) that Davoth was one of the first gods that were created by The Father and ruled over what would become Hell.
Now I know why The Father is 2-A at least but why does Davoth also scale if anyone knows the answer?

 

[Hellbeast]

Yes the atlans use a crucible to keep the titans down as well. So clearly the titans must be bested in physical combat FIRST and then have the crucible placed in them to keep them dead The atlans were not able to beat the dreadnaught in psychical combat but doomguy was.


The only alternative scaling option we have for post divinty machine are the 9-A calcs which is a HUGE hole in the scaling and the plot of the story. Doomguy scaled above those 9-A calcs before he went into the divinty machine, to say that he is the same level is asinine. The 7-C tier is the best logical option for post divinty machine doomguy, since we have more 7-C feats than 9-A feats.

Except no

The fact the Atlans exist proves that the Sentinels themselves don't scale to the Titans, not that they have to be physically bested before hand.

NGL I'm collecting feats currently for Slayer which could yield Tier 8 which is still something (I'm currently collecting them so I'll have to get back to you on how many there are sadly)

Even ignoring those, 9-A is a tier with some 50 times difference between it's highest and lowest bounds, so a growth still within that tier is nowhere near as ridiculous as you imply. Especially since he'd probably get a Likely far Higher if that is the case for his obvious superiority to that previous Doomguy

Also as I've said the Tier 7 feats require some major assumptions on the part of the viewer to get up all that high (Never mind one of them would apply to the much stronger Slayer in Eternal if you do go with the Ion Catapult)

Also what do you mean we haven't provided alternative scaling. Go through any comment on the thread I've made and you'll notice I propose using Slayer's visual feats over his feats in the testaments and appendices with King himself suggesting the 8-A/7-C stuff gets a likely

To act as if we haven't provided potential scaling concepts is just ridiculous

come on guys.

This will never end if we don’t compromise.

At least 9-A(Far superior than OG doomguy)Possibly Low 7-C (has slayed and is possibly physically comparable to the titans.Withstood the argent tower explosion,possibly superior to the ion catapult)

I can live with a likely far higher mentioning the higher feats such as the Titan but I still think going with what we actually see on screen rather then some lore statements is the better option

Again though we're not getting anywhere otherwise so I can live with a compromise at this point

Okay I was gonna ask who Davoth but then I read about it and it's stated (at least from the article I read on the DOOM wiki) that Davoth was one of the first gods that were created by The Father and ruled over what would become Hell.
Now I know why The Father is 2-A at least but why does Davoth also scale if anyone knows the answer?

Basically Davoth consumed other Immortals like himself and is mentioned as having battled the Father

He also may have absorbed other universes into Hell but your mileage may vary on that