Doom Eternal Revision Thread Part 2

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

The original crucible from 2016?He owns it from his space and it's said to be strong enough to tear open a rift between hell and earth.Not to mention it's contains the wraith's power,beings who made the ancestrals(bigger than titans) and the people of argent'd nur.They apparently made a hole this large on earth when the came to existence.

 

[KieranH10]

What feat gives the Icon planet level?

That might need calcing, was there a statement saying that the Crucible holds the wraiths power, I recall one stating it uses wraith fire but not one stating it has the power of each wraith.

 

[DTG499]

The statement that the icon was going to destroy the planet right then and there from the codex and Hayden, it was implied by Hayden that it was going to happen right then and there because he was constantly telling doom guy to hurry.

 

[KieranH10]

That's being included in his reality warping and isn't scaling to his physical stats, once these revision threads have concluded that stuff will be added I think.

 

[DTG499]

Why not? He should be able to survive the initial planet bust attack making it scale to his durability.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

You literally stab the crucible in the wraith's body,absorbing the energy into the crucible in 2016.

 

[Kingo_the_Sixth]

Following.

Atm I feel the beams of light are probably the solidest thing for rela?

 

[Intruvious]

Why not? He should be able to survive the initial planet bust attack making it scale to his durability.

I know, right? That doesn't make sense. He said it has something to do with it "being immune to it's own attacks" or something, which isn't implied anywhere in the lore. So, once again, it's willful assumption.

 

[Armorchompy]

To recap, who agrees and disagrees with the Marauders scaling to the Slayer? (I do btw)

 

[DTG499]

To recap, who agrees and disagrees with the Marauders scaling to the Slayer?

Sure, we have multiple glory kills were he forces DG to put forth a little bit more than effort than the usual casual kill. And he's able to block BFG shots.

 

[GreyFang82]

I disagree, The Marauders are above many of the demons but blocking the BFG and The Crucible are game-mechanics because even The Icon which is clearly the strongest, isn't immune to the Crucible. Berserk and shooting him with the BFG while he's staggered still instantly kills him so at best I think he's 8-B, which makes sense because he's put as a Super Heavy just like the Tyrant (IE: Cyberdemon) IIRC.

 

[KieranH10]

I'm against scaling the Marauder to the Slayer for the reasons above, and also the Slayer was superior in-lore to the other generals of the Sentinels, which would include the Marauders.

 

[NotCensored]

The Marauders should scale loosely to the Slayer since they were put through the Divinity Machine like he was and amped further by Hell Energy much like the Slayer himself and they were also used as Knights in Hell's Army whose sole purpose was to hunt the Slayer and his Night Sentinels.

He's definitely weaker and slower than the Slayer though but he is comparable

 

[DTG499]

The marauder is in fact not immune to the crucible https://youtu.be/NsIGK64cNOg

the BFG would be 8-A via the statement of being the strongest weapon in the UAC's possession making it stronger than the megakelvin laser.

 

[Armorchompy]

Exactly, but he can block it, which further suggests it's not game mechanics, and also suggest his axe also is able to hurt the Slayer.

 

[GreyFang82]

Here's the problem with the Divinity Machine: Doomguy was powered up by being given a specific use of the Divinity Machine about being powered up by the Father, meanwhile the Marauders were simply revived. That's like saying a person who becomes an Avatar of a god is equal or comparable to someone who was resurrected by a god. You see what I mean?

 

[NotCensored]

The marauder is in fact not immune to the crucible https://youtu.be/NsIGK64cNOg
the BFG would be 8-A via the statement of being the strongest weapon in the UAC's possession making it stronger than the megakelvin laser.

Do you think his Axe and Shield should scale to the Crucibles tho? Maybe in AP but i find that hard to believe since its a legendary weapon and all that

 

[Armorchompy]

They use the same tech and were made by the same culture, and the shield can block the crucible, I think that makes sense

 

[DTG499]

Eh most likely not since the crucible is a weapon that only the slayer was strong enough to use. And I'm just saying that the marauder scales to casual doomguy, so 7-C. The low 7-B comes from argent energy boosts and the statements that he's constantly getting stronger.

 

[DTG499]

They use the same tech and were made by the same culture, and the shield can block the crucible, I think that makes sense

The crucible should be using a lot more of that energy source though. Same principle with the 2016 pistol and BFG 9K they both use argent energy but one clearly uses A LOT more.

 

[NotCensored]

Here's the problem with the Divinity Machine: Doomguy was powered up by being given a specific use of the Divinity Machine about being powered up by the Father, meanwhile the Marauders were simply revived. That's like saying a person who becomes an Avatar of a god is equal or comparable to someone who was resurrected by a god. You see what I mean?

They weren't just revived by it they also were transformed/ recreated and amped by Hell's power its more like comparing a Demi-God to a God they have similarties but ones obviously superior

 

[DTG499]

Even though all the other glory kills are the marauder getting shit on, I think we should still take this one into account when we tier him.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree that the Marauders backwards scaling from Icon of Sin or Kahn Maker seems iffy, and that game mechanics and PIS are a thing. Doomslayer was punched and knocked around by Cyberdemon even in Doom 2016. Though, he took no damage from the cutscene. And that's despite Cyberdemons being clearly fodder compared to the Titan.

 

[DTG499]

I'm just doing a strict glory kill by glory kill comparison. The are essentially mini cutscenes and they provide the best visual display of the lore scaling.

 

[KieranH10]

I feel 8-B would fit best for the Marauder, while that one glory kill does show him holding back a punch, that seems more of a lifting strength comparison, not an AP thing.

If we use the glory kill as evidence for an AP comparison then the Archvile would also scale to the Slayer since they also hold a punch back in a glory kill, which would mean the BFG9K would scale above that since it can one shot archviles, and then Barons above that since they can tank a blast, and all of a sudden the scaling has gone all over the place.

 

[DTG499]

Well we take it by a case by base basis. If we have a glory kill that directly contradicts the in game durability then we prioritize the glory kill scaling. Barrons in that case would just be BFG level were as the archviles would be casual slayer level. It's the same reason why the Spider mastermind is considered to be weaker than the 2016 cyber demon , we have a glory kill in the spider master mind showcasing a one shot via BFG. Despite the fact that they both take the same amount of damage from the BFG in game.

 

[KieranH10]

It still feels iffy, both the Archvile and the Marauder are one shot by the BFG, and scaling the Archvile above multiple bosses seems strange too, it's clearly not superior to demons such as the Cyberdemon or Spider Mastermind, but that scaling would put them far above them. I still think that it's simply lifting strength that should scale to the Slayer.

 

[DTG499]

Glory kills are what take the precedent period. It's the best doom has when it comes to lore scaling. It wouldn't be that far of a reach to say that the heavy demons in this game are stronger than the bosses on the previous since we have the statement from eternal that he has gotten stronger since the events of 2016. As well as the quote from 2016 that he is constantly growing in power on top of the fact that he grows stronger with each demon he kills.

 

[Armorchompy]

They use the same tech and were made by the same culture, and the shield can block the crucible, I think that makes sense

The crucible should be using a lot more of that energy source though. Same principle with the 2016 pistol and BFG 9K they both use argent energy but one clearly uses A LOT more.

The difference is that the Marauders got their weapons from the same source as the Crucible, and since they should have been relatively high-ranking Sentinels, the weapons would logically not be that much weaker, a fact supported by the shield blocking the Crucible.

For the matter, I don't think the Marauders scale to the Slayer in durability or AP, only in lifting strength. However, their weapons should. Especially since they knew the Slayer, so they wouldn't bring a weapon that can't scratch him, and we know the shield is comparable, so why wouldn't the axe, which comes from the same source, be?

 

[DTG499]

This description from the codex states that the crucible and the weapons that the sentinels use are in completely different leagues.




The marauder choosing that weapon specifically to fight the slayer would not be a factor here since he was using that axe before he became a demon.

 

[Armorchompy]

The Marauder's axe has a different design on the handle, so it's not the same one.

And again, we've estabilished the Crucible doesn't kill Titans via AP, but by negating their immortality/regen/resurrection. I do agree it's stronger, but the shield clearly does stop it, so they have to be at least slightly comparable.

 

[DTG499]

It is the same axe it's just buffed with hell energy. The crucible's ability to take down a titan is from its AP and immortality negation. The doom slayer was the only one capable of taking down a titan with his bare hands and because of that it makes him the only one capable of wielding the crucible.

 

[Armorchompy]

One could argue it's not AP at all, since it appears to be heat based, but whatever. Either way, there's still the fact that the shield blocks it.

 

[KieranH10]

I still agree that the only thing the Marauder scales to is Lifting Strength, and potentially the Argent Weapons and shield could scale to the Crucible, The Marauder did have the Axe since before they were brought to the dark side as it seems ever general has an argent weapon of sorts, the Betrayer also owns one with his hammer. I never considered that the Marauder owned the weapon beforehand so I'm also thinking it may not scale now. If it does it's far, far, below the crucible.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's a different axe tho, look at the handle and the blade itself.

 

[DTG499]

That would be game mechanic limitations because the lore statements say that the titan was pretty much massacring the night sentinels(the ones that would become marauders). The shield and axe are just sentinel technology buffed will hell energy. Even with those shield the titan was just destroying them in troves. So no the crucible does not scale to the sentinel weapons.

 

[DTG499]

It's a different axe tho, look at the handle and the blade itself.

The process of them becoming a demon transformed them, I'm sure the axe transformed as well.

 

[KieranH10]

Yeah I think i'm leaning toward the weapons not scaling now, the Marauders (While considered one of hells best bets in harming the Slayer), shouldn't scale in AP, it's made abundantly clear in-lore that hell simply don't have anything that can harm the Slayer. Only lifting strength shouuld scale imo.

 

[Armorchompy]

If it transformed them, then it's perfectly plausibly they became stronger.

 

[KieranH10]

It certainly made them stronger, not enough to scale to the Slayer or the Crucible though.