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Donquixote Doflamingo vs Bronzong

Yeah. This is a simple win with a slight hint of bias for Bronzong.

He has good status hax, stat amping, precog, that whole mess of IQ skills from PMD, kinda resists Dolfy's type of possession due to being... a sentient bell.

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His Possession is him inserting threads on the brain. Bronzong doesn't have a conventional brain. His precog is also not so good, not even when compared to Pre-Katakuri Luffy or Sanji.

He could tame Bronzong with Conqueror's Haki if the Pokemon are easibly tameable creatures. Is the type weakness considered here? Doffy has Overheat which is a fire attack and Bronzong is a Steel-Type.
 
Bronzong has Fireproof as its signature ability.

Conquerer's Hakai may do something, but it's usually seen as a power that only effect opponents much weaker than the user (think of running into weak enemies in Mother 3).
 
Yes, right now it affects weak-willed characters and animals. Considering a Pokémon is tamed the moment it's captured then I conclude they would be easily tameable by Conqueror's Haki now that it's accepted as Limited animal manipulation here.

With Fireproof Doffy's options are even less.
 
Eh i'm not sure if they can be tamed by conqueror haki like unlike the basic animals Pokemons are.....more intelligence? I dunno
 
Most of the animals in OP world are able to understand the human language, tbf.

But I digress, Doffy doesn't spam that and I doubt he'd do such a thing to begin with against a floating bell.
 
Doflamingo does use Haoshoku upon fighting seriously, or bloodlusted. So if he's ever reaching a point in this fight where he's taking a big L, or at least pressured, he's likely going to resort to it.

While Bronzong CAN disable healing/regen, Doflamingo's is not exactly like either of them, and he instead summons his threads inside of his body to begin repairing damage from the inside, like stitching or utilizing a form of artificial tissue to replace dead ones. Not exactly healing, but close enough. I'm not sure Bronzong is going to negate Doflamingo from summoning his DF power from within his own body. So Doflamingo's Shufuku Sagyo should still factor here.

Overheat will basically be pointless due to fire-proof.

Parasito will also likely be ineffective due to Bronzong literally being a bell. But Doflamingo can still wrap him up in threads to restrict movement.

What AP/Dura stats does Bronzong scale to? Regardless, considering Doffy is 440+ Megatons, I doubt there's going to be any notable difference... Remember, Doflamingo's also got Busoshoku, so the numbers are of no relevance if there's less than a 1.75x gap.

Bronzong immobilization is a problem, but Doflamingo does not have to move at all to utilize his DF effectively.

Overall, here's the advantages I see, excluding where one or the other cancels out:

Bronzong: Immobilizing abilities, Limitless Stamina, Statistics Amp increasing defense, Possible AP/Dura, and Hypnosis possibly one-shot (How effective?).

Doflamingo: Range (for attacks and Haki), Duplication, Environmental Transmutation via Awakening, Intelligence by a sharp margin, Healing from Shufuku Sagyo (unless it can be argued that Bronzong negates it), nigh-invisible attacks with threads, Statistics Amp (Busoshoku for both offensive and defensive purposes), Haoshoku Haki possibly ending the fight.

Anything else either opponent has over the other will either not factor, or the effectiveness is unreliable.

Right now, I'm inconclusive. If Hypnosis from Bronzong is not very effective, and it can be argued that Doflamingo's Haoshoku will work, I'll go with Doflamingo. Vice-versa as well.
 
CinCameron20 said:
Doflamingo: Range (for attacks and Haki), Duplication, Environmental Transmutation via Awakening, Intelligence by a sharp margin, Healing from Shufuku Sagyo (unless it can be argued that Bronzong negates it), nigh-invisible attacks with threads, Statistics Amp (Busoshoku for both offensive and defensive purposes), Haoshoku Haki possibly ending the fight.
Click to expand...
Both start at 4km from one another, and both have moves which can cross this gap. Range shouldn't be much of a factor.

It's kinda questionable whether Doflamingo's transmutation will work, since it seems to only work on inanimate objects.

Fair

Also probably fair

Precognition and Iron Defense help against nigh-invisible attacks

Bronzong has ways of increasing its defense to counter offensive amps, and reducing defense to counter defensive amps. Both are quite effective.

Probably fair, but remember that Pokemon aren't nearly as easily tamed in the anime as they are in the games.

On top of the advantages you listed, Bronzong has fear manipulation which can make Doflamingo flinch before attacking, and its psychic attacks don't require travel time. Overall, I'll probably vote for the bell.
 
@Gyro -

Range does matter considering Doflamingo can cross way over 4km (Overheat traveling nearly 10km, and Bird-cage encasing in a radius of about 9km) and i am unaware for how far Bronz can cross.

  • And since they'd start from that distance away, I'm pretty certain Doflamingo has a massive advantage with his Haki and he'd send his Black Knight first to get a feel of the opponent before attempting to ambush the moment Bronzong thinks he had an easy victory (likely ineffective due to House Avoider, but considering that's an IQ ability... Doubt). And this is in-character as Doflamingo has either opened with Parasito or Black Knight under normal circumstances, and as we've probably established, Parasito would not be effective.
"Environmental Transmutation" as in Doflamingo will literally turn the entire battle-field into his weapon instantly. He'll be able to attack and defend from any position at any angle.

  • I didn't even think that it would work on Bronzong, but if it does, this would likely result in a low-diff fight, or stomp.
I am unaware how the pre-cog works for Bronzong, but unless Bronzong can sense them directly, he will have issues.

We don't currently know the limits of Haoshoku or its viable in combat (at least against characters of near-equal power-levels), but it can be assumed that, if Brozong is lacking in willpower and mental constitution, it should be an effective tool, even if it doesn't insta-one-shot the bell.

I didn't bring up Psychic attacks because Doflamingo's sensory abilities would likely allow him to notice and evade the attacks via aim-dodge. Every user of Haoshoku automatically has the power of "indomitable willpower" (pretty sure it was overlooked for several characters, so I'm gonna have to bring it up), so I don't think I can agree that Bronzong's fear-manip would be effective.

Since Doffy is >440MT and Bronzong is 531MT, the difference is only 20%, so the AP/Dura doesn't even matter considering both have statistics amp.

I'm leaning towards Doffy for now, but not placing an official vote til I know more.
 
They start 4km, but both have attacks that reach that far. It's a non-factor really.

Pokemon have access to their iq moves here, yeah. So house avoider should stop stealth + ambush attempts.

Bronzong's precog is future sight; it sees multiple attacks ahead into the future.

I don't think Bronzong should be weak to mental based abilities, considering its typing and all.

That's the thing; moves like Psychic don't have travel time. They can't be dodged via aim dodging because its an attack that is directly 'on' the opponent. The indomitable willpower thing is cool, and idk how good it is, but intimidator has affected Pokemon with very strong willpower before, so unless its something special simply being brave won't cut it.

Bronzong is >>> 531 MT, cause the 531 MT feat was done by Pupitar, a second evo, by thrashing about.
 
Pupitar's stronger than other second evos due to being a second stage psuedo. That, and 7-A is a lot more consistent with fully evolved Pokemon than second evos.
 
Calaca Vs said:
His Possession is him inserting threads on the brain. Bronzong doesn't have a conventional brain. His precog is also not so good, not even when compared to Pre-Katakuri Luffy or Sanji.
He could tame Bronzong with Conqueror's Haki if the Pokemon are easibly tameable creatures. Is the type weakness considered here? Doffy has Overheat which is a fire attack and Bronzong is a Steel-Type.
Click to expand...
How does Doffy have precog or possess things through the brain? He's always just stuck his strings in the body, not the brain. Precog has never been confirmed either.
 
I believe Cin can explain Doffy's moveset FAR better than I could, so wait for him since he's much more knowledgeable about Doffy than me.
 
Doffy's usage of Kenbunshoku was never established by a statement or panel, but it would not make any sense for him not to have it considering his showings during the 2nd phase of the Dressrosa Arc.

1) Doflamingo attacked Fujitora before Fujitora even began answering his questio. We have Fujitora noting his desire to get rid of the Shichibukai system, and why, then Doflamingo asked about what would happen to the balance of power, and as Fujitora begins mocking him, Doflamingo's leg is already seen in motion LONG before the threat passes.

2) He was able to locate and understand the situation regarding Luffy and Law in the well despite being far away, looking at the sky, and his Black Knight having already been destroyed. How on earth would he know what is going on without being there himself? Assuming he has no affinity with Kenbunshoku, ofc.

  • Also, his Black Knight is sentient and acts on its own, and Doflamingo was unaware of how Luffy's fight with it was going when they were out of sight, so the argument that the BK can relay info to Doffy is out the window.
3) Also, throughout a few of his fights, he was able to sense the location of Law, Gear 4th Luffy and Sanji despite being out of his line of sight, and he would not have any way to know they are about to hit him without sensing their precise location.

  • Catching Law despite Law teleporting behind him and going for a back-stab
  • Noticing Sanji before he could pull off his Diable Jambe barrage
  • Applying Busoshoku Koka to the side of his head where Luffy's Rhino Schneider connected (despite not working too well)
Basically, it is ridiculous to assume Doflamingo has absolutely no capability with Kenbunshoku in the slightest when his supposed feats support the contrary, and the only times he took a hit was against Gear 4th Luffy, and when he was enraged or shocked by Law (mitigating the effectiveness of Kenbunshoku, as confirmed later by Katakuri and Luffy)

Regarding Parasito, the threads attach to the nape of the neck where the brain-stem and spinal cord are connected. Doflamingo uses other means of possession by simply wrapping his threads around target's arms and legs to hinder movement or force it. He has done both during Dressrosa. Parasito is more random and is much like Black Knight and acts on its own, whereas Doflamingo has more direct control by physically placing threads on the victim's limbs and body.

  • Should probably request an edit to note that Black Knight and Parasito are sentient and have them added to Doffy's profile, tbh.
 
@Rei - I mean, Doflamingo just sat there and took her attacks and moved out of the way for two of them. But, I doubt that one specifically applies to Kenbunshoku. Baby 5 can't do anything to Doflamingo anyways.

Since Bronzong scales to a 531MT feat (he can't be far above that anyways since it was performed by Pupitar), and Doflamingo scales above a 440MT feat, the gap between them is still too small--only a 20% difference disregarding any amps they each have.

I think I'm going to officially vote for Doflamingo due to intellect (including deceptive tactics with Black Knight and the Environment using his Awakening that he has used to nearly kill Luffy and Kyros), Shufuku Sagyo preventing any lasting damage, Haoshoku possibly having an effect (debatable), overall range, Awakening making the battle-field his weapon, and nigh-invisible attacks (Even if Bronzong can "see the future" and such, how is that relevant if he can not actually see the attack itself? It's not the same as sensing the attack coming, and thus knowing its exact location. He also runs the risk of running straight into Doflamingo's threads similarly to Oars Jr. and Sanji).

The only things I see working on Doflamingo that Bronzong has is Fire-proof (works on literally only one attack, but only gets rid of the fire-threat, not the force of the attack itself), psychic attacks (Aim-dodging is a thing. The attack isn't in effect until after it is already performed, and by then Doflamingo would either be caught off guard and hit the first time, or move out of the way). The effectiveness of Hypnosis and Fear-Manip have not been explained to me, so I'm disregarding them for now assuming Doflamingo can resist them as he should have immense willpower by default due to having access to Haoshoku.

Without Awakening, Doflamingo would have a lot of trouble landing an attack, but Bronzong would find a similar issue with this, and both would probably be at an impasse for a very long time before either Doflamingo tires out and is disadvantaged, or Doflamingo finds an effective means of attack. But with Awakening, the ENTIRE surrounding is Doflamingo's playground, and Bronzong's only going to be safe while in mid-air, but even then, the Awakening threads can travel off the ground for kilometers, as seen when Doflamingo fought Luffy just before King Kong Gun. It's not like Bronzong is going to see this coming in time, and by then, the ground and air will be surrounding Bronzong in threads. Good luck dodging all of that with Doflamingo himself also throwing pot-shots with Bullet-string, Full Bright, and Goshikito.

Doflamingo should win, albeit high-difficulty. Intelligence, Awakening and Shufuku Sagyo being the 3 keys to his victory. Also, he's far more likely to land the first strike if both of them start 4km apart. That gives Doflamingo ample time to set up a Black Knight, then prepare for an ambush after learning a bit about Bronzong's abilities (as he's stomping the hell out of the Black Knight)
 
1) Just because he kicked before Fuji threatened him doesn't confirm him having precog. He could have arguably just been kicking him out of anger/irritation since Fujitora was threatening his protection and mocking him by mentioning Crocodile. That's the least convincing piece of evidence IMO.

2) Doffy doesn't need to have kenbun haki on a level that covers a large part of the country to understand that his strings have been destroyed. He's manipulating it in the first place so it shouldn't be surprising that he knows when it's destroyed.

3. Plenty of characters from plenty of series have done this ability without having any precog or presence sensing. One moment I'll mention is G2 Luffy vs Blueno. Not to mention that each of the scenarios you mentioned have clear audio cues. Also, even Crocodile has shown to perfect his DF to transform on reflex. Even Katakuri, who didn't sense Luffy's inital Snakeman punch, was able to reflexively block against the attack by coating his face in haki.

4. Even if my evidence doesn't debunk it, Doffy had plenty of chances of using his kenbun haki when he was perfectly calm, yet he still couldn't predict things like Law escaping with Caesar in Green Bit or predicting Luffy punching his guts. Hell, even Black Knight didn't predict Abdullah and Jeet or even getting decapitated by Kryos , which he states "You got me worse than I expected."

5. Parasito has always been consistent with attaching to the entire body, not necessarily the brain itself, which Idk if you are saying the same thing as Cal, since the points seem to be pretty different from each other.
 
1) Doflamingo threw the kick immediately after he asked "What will happen to the balance of power?" and Fujitora starts talking AS the leg is already in motion. The next panel has the clash long before stating "I will remove your head myself". You're twisting things around to debunk this when the evidence is right there.

  • It's like saying Fujitora isn't a Kenbunshoku Haki user just because the manga doesn't actually clarify that he uses it. It's just made apparent by his showings. Same with Sanji.
2) In Chapter 769, he was unaware that his Black Knight was destroyed by Luffy until after it emerged from the ground, let alone know it was struggling beforehand. In Chapter 752, he noted that he sent the Black Knight to Law in order to make a "delivery", but seems as though it wasn't needed. It's clear why:

  • The Black Knight was sent to Law and Luffy as a mockery, due to them falling for an easy deception by Kelly Funk, who the BK defeated before entering the well. But the two brothers hopped in and saved them.
  • Doflamingo is holding onto the key to Law's cuffs, and notes that he wasn't needed only after Rebecca, Robin, and Bartolomeo head for the Flower Hill, possessing another key for Law's cuffs.
    • Keep in mind that Doflamingo doesn't kill Law or want the cuffs to stay on (permanently) for the sole purpose of using the Ope-Ope for eternal life.
3) That scan isn't a good example. Blueno's hands enter Luffy's peripheral the moment the latter noticed. Luffy's also way faster anyways, and he moved a large distance before Blueno could even notice or fully close his arms. You're using a statement from the One Piece wiki to support Crocodile's case, when it is not supported by any source in the first place, and Doflamingo was never trying to kill Crocodile from the start. We don't even know how their fight concluded. Doflamingo was unscathed and Crocodile was battered even further before we see him again deflecting a strike from Mihawk. Katakuri was against Luffy, who at the time, was faster with Snake-Man, and had comparable power with Kenbunshoku. What makes you think Katakuri was not using Kenbunshoku? He was up against a new pattern of attack from Luffy, so he didn't understand it until after the 3rd punch was sent.

4) a) Doflamingo had just came to the realization that he was not holding Caesar's heart, and thus aggravated by Law's deception, b) Doflamingo was off-guard and was in the motion of standing up by the time Law swapped positions with him and Luffy landed Red-Hawk. He was not prepared to fight them. He was arrogant, c1) Black Knight isn't Doflamingo himself. The case of Abdullah/Jeet is so inconsistent, as Doflamingo attacked Kelly Funk, who trapped Law/Luffy in the first place, then ignored the brothers before going into the well. Plot-hole, tbh. c2) Regarding Kyros, it was a shock factor, and a deception to draw Kyros in. Had Luffy not jumped in, Kyros would have been dead in that instant due to being distracted by the seemingly vulnerable Black Knight. Also, Doflamingo placed the BK in the first place, so he was obviously prepared. The memories being restored to him by Sugar passing out, as well as the anger welling up from the entire country turning against him certainly did not leave him calm.

  • Also, the Black Knight was able to stand right back up and attacked Luffy. So Kyros ran straight into a trap, thinking Doflamingo's head was the only thing able to move.
  • Also, "You got me worse than I expected" is referring to the situation the Straw Hats put Dressrosa in, seeing as how Sugar was incapacitated, and now the citizens know the truth of Doflamingo, and aim to take him out.
5) Parasito, actually, is more consistent in striking characters in the nape of the neck, as I stated. Case 1, Case 2, Case 3. These are the only 3 times we see Parasito used explicitly. The times he only uses his power to manipulate single targets are when they wrap around the limbs, such is the case with Luffy... and I can not think of any other confirmed individuals. Viola and Rebecca are too vague.

My input is my own. Don't suggest I'm in line with someone else. I'm placing my opinion based on the facts and what is shown in the manga, nothing else.
 
I'm just questioning it since I was curious. While I won't address everything else right now, I will say that it has been confirmed that Sanji and Fujitora have kenbun haki via direct statements or showings, such as Fishman Island when Luffy asks Zoro and Sanji if they sense Caribou or Sanji himself stating it during Punk Hazard or Fujitora sensing everyone's emotions. This was also the case for every other scene involving kenbun haki and can't really be confirmed otherwise. Even Luffy, who was in a relatively calm state, couldn't predict against Caesar using his Karakuni on both encounters, yet used it earlier in the arc. Of course it doesn't mean Caesar > precog, but you know what I mean. I'll leave it at that.

Never suggested your opinion was an agreed opinion, just wanted to know since Cal's statements seemed too vague for me.
 
Dude, you're ignoring what I said. Psychic doesnt have travel time. Aim dodging is completely useless against an attack that doesn't need to get from A to B, but rather starts at B.

Doflamingo doesn't have resistance to mind manip or fear manip on his profile. Both abilities work just fine on him.

Also, Bronzong should be decently above Pupitar considering Bronzong's a fully evolved Pokemon.

Idk if I've voted but Bronzong should take this, mid-diff
 
All you're saying is "no travel time"... You need to clarify because all that means is that it is suddenly at a desired location. Doflamingo, using precog, would know the attack is coming before it even is performed by Bronzong, and either preemptively attack Bronzong, or move away from the location. Stop accusing me of ignoring you. You're the one ignoring what is being said.

Erm, Doflamingo utilizes Haoshoku Haki, and it has been made explicit that they have immense willpower, and are less suseptible to such attacks. You've yet to explain to me how both work (and I've asked twice, so far), and their limits. So again, disregarding both abilities til you stop beating around the bush.

Yes, but by an undetermined amount, so still 531MT via this site's scaling.

K.
 
@Weekly - To be honest, if we have two characters with a form of pre-cog, how can we tell what is going to happen in regards to each subsequent action? And unlike Bronzong's psychic powers, Doflamingo can cover the entire area with his awakening. Hundreds of attacks simultaneously would be far more challenging to dodge than a single attack that Doffy knows is coming, even if Bronzong knows where each will be. He has to be able to dodge every last one of them, otherwise suffer varying amounts of damage.
 
So you're saying Bronzong would win because his pre-cog is > Alakazam's, however that does not tell me anything on how that would make him equal, superior, or drastically superior to Doffy's.

Also, that doesn't refute the point that Doflamingo's various attacks would be coming from different vectors at once, and Bronzong would need to focus on avoiding/blocking those as well as trying to land a single attack. And even if both take damage, Doflamingo has his Shufuku Sagyo ability to repair damage to his body (Not any form of conventional regen or healing, so Bronzong's Heal Block should not work, as Doflamingo merely uses threads to stitch his tissue, or make artificial tissue to temporarily replace the dead ones), and Bronzong has no form of healing or Regenerationn. If it comes to a battle of attrition with both of them trading blows, Doflamingo's likely winning.
 
" So you're saying Bronzong would win because his pre-cog is > Alakazam's, however that does not tell me anything on how that would make him equal, superior, or drastically superior to Doffy's"

Is hidden psychic power has been unleashed. A glance at someone gives it knowledge of the course of that person's life, from birth to death.

Idk if Bronzong is superior to that, but that's Alakazam's precog.
 
@cin Because Alakazam can look at a person and instantly know all of their weaknesses, every move they could possibly make, and can see every event that will play out through their entire lives. Doffy's is nowhere near that impressive.
 
Hypnosis and Confuse Ray put Doffy to sleep or confuse him into attacking himself respectively just from Bronzong looking at Doffy
 
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