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Doctor Fate Revamp

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I lean towards agreeing with ClassicNESfan about scaling from The Spectre.

Can you explain/summarise the tweaks in the scaling suggested by yourself, Lord Tracer, or Matthew, that you mentioned earlier?
 
Spectre's power varies extremely depending on intention, how well he uses his powers, the host' perspective, Imagination, God's will, if he uses his powers correctly, etcetera. I don't think scaling to the Spectre is a good idea at all

By the way Seven Soldiers Zatanna didn't even beat Zor with magic, she just found a way to counter his reality warping by being a step ahead of him and strangling him, Infact, one of the main points in the storyline is that she didn't even have her magic, and classical Spectre (the one Zor fought) was extremely inexperienced and didn't really have any 2-A feats
 
ClassicNESfan said:
No, but it is countered by the Spectre not being a good benchmark for scaling characters. If other people agree that fighting the Spectre is not sufficient evidence for granting someone another tier, given his tendency to vary a lot, then that should be considered a valid interpretation. I mean, I don't see how it's unreasonable to ask for a single secondary 2-A feat when the only thing you have to go off of is one fight against a character who is sometimes 2-A.
Click to expand...
That is literally the point of the "possibly 2-A," the idea of which was already accepted for other characters in the past.
 
Hykuu seems to make sense to me here.
 
@Ant:

Most of this thread turned into a discussion about where to place the characters who scale to Fate a very long time ago. There is pretty much unanimous consensus on most of the brackets I proposed weeks ago, especially the Fates, considering they all have direct feats. The one area we still seem to clash on is what should be done with Parallax, The Spectre (Hal Jordan), Takio, Darkseid, and Highfather.

Currently, the position with the most support says that Parallax, Takio, Darkseid, and Highfather should all be 2-B, and The Spectre (Hal Jordan) should be 2-A.

However, I (ClassicNESfa) have proposed lowering The Spectre (Hal Jordan) to 2-B, Possibly 2-A. This position has been supported by a couple of members but none of the approved Knowledgeable Members.

LordTracer has proposed raising Parallax, Takio, and Darkseid all to 2-B, Possibly 2-A. This has been supported by more members than my proposal but still not by any of the approved Knowledgeable Members.

And Matthew Schroeder has proposed raising Parallax to 2-A, but he has made no comment on Takio, Darkseid, and The Spectre (Hal Jordan), who all scale to Parallax.

Those are the "tweaks" I was talking about earlier. The term "tweak" in this context is referring to a deviation from the general consensus on this thread.
 
Hal should be "Varies, Up to 2-A" due to nearly every single Issue in which Hal Spectre appears in except the Vol 4 run we literally see him having mental breakdowns and an identity crisis which lowers his power by alot, he doesn't even want to be a spectre 90% of the time.
 
@ClassicNESfan

Well, from what I recall, I think that your suggestions have made good sense to me, but it depends on what the others think.
 
@Ant:

Right now, there is pretty much unanimous support for all proposals other than Parallax, The Spectre (Hal Jordan), Takio, Darkseid, and Highfather, but the Knowledgeable Members you suggested seem to be placing them into 2-B, with the exception of The Spectre (Hal Jordan), who they have been placing in 2-A. Matthew has also placed Parallax into 2-A, but his comments were very brief and didn't include much detail.
 
Okay. Let's wait and see more comments from them regarding your last summaries before we do anything drastic.
 
You can ask Matthew to comment here again if you wish.
 
Sounds good to me. Apologies in advance if I take a little while to respond. I have this thread set to alert me, but I have been very unreasonably busy the last few days. I'll repost the current status of our progress once again immediately under this post for ease of access to incoming readers.
 
A Thread Summary for New Readers:

This overhaul of Doctor Fate's profile seeks to better categorize his varying power levels and more thoroughly account for his long history of feats, ranging from universal to multiversal, depending upon the incarnation of the character. A key will be added for each agent of Fate, and a variety of characters who scale to the Fates will also need to be revised as a result. The tier adjustments detailed below represent the conclusions arrived at by a small group of Knowledgeable DC Members and various associated users of the VS Battles Wiki.

2-A Bracket: Nabu, Doctor Fate (Kent & Inza), Mordru (Unbound Lord of Chaos), The Spectre (Jim Corrigan), The Phantom Stranger, Trigon, The Spectre (Hal Jordan)

2-B Bracket: Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson), Doctor Fate (Hector Hall), Doctor Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss), Mordru (Physical Form), Time Trapper, Infinite Man, Parallax (Hal Jordan), Darkseid, Takion, Highfather

Low 2-C Bracket: Doctor Fate (Kent V Nelson)

It should be noted that the above mentioned scaling does not represent unanimous consensus but instead reflects the general agreement among a majority of reviewers. Specifically, disagreements exist in the following areas:

ClassicNESfa believes that The Spectre (Hal Jordan) is better suited as 2-B, Possibly 2-A.

Zark2099 is Undecided on whether Parallax (Hal Jordan) or Trigo need a revision at all.

LordTracer believes that Parallax (Hal Jordan), Darkseid, Takio, and Highfather are better suited as 2-B, Possibly 2-A.

-Matthew Schroeder has recently voiced support for 2-A Parallax (Hal Jordan)

Thanks for reading, and let us know what you think!
 
No problem. Thank you for helping out.
 
Shouldn't the Spectres in general be 'Varies. Up to 2-A' if they're so wildly inconsistent like everyone says? Also isn't Trigon being upped to 2-A because he was stated to be relative to Corrigan? What makes Parallax different, especially when he's actually fought Corrigan evenly?
 
Hykuu said:
Hal should be "Varies, Up to 2-A" due to nearly every single Issue in which Hal Spectre appears in except the Vol 4 run we literally see him having mental breakdowns and an identity crisis which lowers his power by alot, he doesn't even want to be a spectre 90% of the time.
Click to expand...
^^

Also didn't I already address the Corrigan v Parallax stuff in my first comment?
 
Das Hal tho, not Corrigan.

You addressed the idea of Parallax being superior to Corrigan, you didn't say anything about Parallax just being on the same level of infinity as Corrigan. Because Corrigan being his superior doesn't really change that Parallax was able to trade blows with Corrigan.

On another note, is Takion superior to Zero Hour Parallax? Or just Hal as a Parallax host in general? Because if it's not Zero Hour Parallax he scales to, then he, Darkseid, and Highfather shouldn't be 2-A in any way.
 
They didn't really trade blows and as I said Corrigan's power varies alot, and he's literally used his power in another crisis like a idiot aswell
 
And as I keep saying, that's why Parallax would have a 'possibly 2-A,' since it's possible Corrigan was 2-A during that fight, and Parallax was able to harm Corrigan, which would show he's on the same level of infinity as him.
 
That's not how possibly 2-A works, we don't go by miniscule possibilites like that, and we might aswell give everyone who fights spectre/anyone who holds back a "possibly (insert tier of the full power character)" because they could just be holding back 1% of their power
 
How is it only a miniscule possibility that Corrigan was using his full power against Parallax? Parallax already showed significant superiority over the 2-Bs, and he and Corrigan were on par until Parallax began having his energy drained. And even with his energy draining, Parallax was still able to wound Corrigan.
 
No it's not that he holds back its that he nearly always has doubts mentally and in turn gets weakend by far, and he goes below 2-A levels at that point, also it wasn't even on par, Parallax just shoots him, Spectre was like "k lol" and dips for a bit, comes back, then does a feat Parallax needed prep to do
 
Yeah, I just checked the issue, that is not what Spectre's reaction was at all. He screamed in pain from a blast that came from a weakening Parallax, and prior to that neither was shown having the advantage over the other. I'm aware Corrigan is Parallax's superior, but they are shown in the comic to be at least in the same general region of power.
 
And what exactly makes you think he wasn't 2-A there? You said his mental doubts are what makes him weaker, Corrigan didn't seem doubtful in the slightest.
 
And again, what makes you think that he was doubting himself so much in Zero Hour that he'd drop an entire level of infinity? Also, how do you know Spectre's 2-A feats were performed with him at maximum confidence with no doubts whatsoever?
 
We don't apply that logic in varying power level, and as I said, it's a variable, not definitive.

Because it's done when he accepts his Identity and follows the Will of God
 
Hykuu is partially right. Sometimes the Spectre's mental state is involved in his varying power levels, but there is more to it than that. The Spectre's power relies on agreement between the Spectre entity and its human host, how much of the Spectre's potential the host is capable of tapping into at that time, how much authority the Spectre is being granted by The Presence in that particular instance, etc, but more to the point, I literally just reposted the thread summary for newcomers to look at. Can you please not bury it with more arguments about 2-A Parallax right now? For the love of God, you can discuss Parallax after we have more people onboard. Or hell, if he's upgraded to 2-B, you can discuss bumping him to 2-A later in a separate thread if you're still unsatisfied and really feel like he was cheated, but he is not the only character being discussed in this thread. The Knowledgeable Members present just don't seem to agree with you on this. Well, Matthew might, but he's not commenting much. Can we please focus on some of the larger issues instead of filling every lull in activity with another debate about Parallax being 2-A? This thread has been open for over a month now.
 
Oh, thank you. So yeah, after seeing that I definitely still think Parallax should be 2-A.

What do you think about all the proposals for other characters, @Matthew?
 
Yes. Which suggestion do you think seems most reasonable?
 
Upgrading Parallax should necessitate upgrading The Spectre (Hal Jordan) and Takion- two characters who scale above him. And upgrading Takion will necessitate upgrading Darkseid and Highfather who both scale above him. Do you have any thoughts on this? Should all four of these characters be 2-A? Should we keep them down at 2-B? Or should only some of them be upgraded for some reason?
 
ClassicNESfan said:
A Thread Summary for New Readers:

This overhaul of Doctor Fate's profile seeks to better categorize his varying power levels and more thoroughly account for his long history of feats, ranging from universal to multiversal, depending upon the incarnation of the character. A key will be added for each agent of Fate, and a variety of characters who scale to the Fates will also need to be revised as a result. The tier adjustments detailed below represent the conclusions arrived at by a small group of Knowledgeable DC Members and various associated users of the VS Battles Wiki.

2-A Bracket: Nabu, Doctor Fate (Kent & Inza), Mordru (Unbound Lord of Chaos), The Spectre (Jim Corrigan), The Phantom Stranger, Trigon, The Spectre (Hal Jordan)

2-B Bracket: Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson), Doctor Fate (Hector Hall), Doctor Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss), Mordru (Physical Form), Time Trapper, Infinite Man, Parallax (Hal Jordan), Darkseid, Takion, Highfather

Low 2-C Bracket: Doctor Fate (Kent V Nelson)

It should be noted that the above mentioned scaling does not represent unanimous consensus but instead reflects the general agreement among a majority of reviewers. Specifically, disagreements exist in the following areas:

ClassicNESfa believes that The Spectre (Hal Jordan) is better suited as 2-B, Possibly 2-A.

Zark2099 is Undecided on whether Parallax (Hal Jordan) or Trigo need a revision at all.

LordTracer believes that Parallax (Hal Jordan), Darkseid, Takio, and Highfather are better suited as 2-B, Possibly 2-A.

-Matthew Schroeder has recently voiced support for 2-A Parallax (Hal Jordan)

Thanks for reading, and let us know what you think!
Click to expand...
@Matthew

What do you think?
 
@SuperAPM Jim's aura has been described as warping the multiverse and he could have negged COIE Anti Monitor

Also Hal was literally stated to be above Parallax when he was the Spectre, so it all just depends on how high Parallax was
 
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