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Doctor Fate Revamp
- Thread starter LordTracer
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- #323
There's a bit of an issue, that being ZH Parallax actually defeating HJ Spectre on two separate occasions. Also as for Takion, Darkseid, etc, like I said if they don't scale above Zero Hour Parallax, and are only above regular Hal Parallax, they shouldn't be 2-A.
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- #325
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- #327
Yes, please.
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Yes, he's given the best revisions so far.
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The first one was literally just a figment of Hal's Imagination and his fear manifested.LordTracer said:
The only reason Parallax beat Hal in the 2nd scan is because his fear of Parallax since he killed thousands of innocent lives is greater than him accepting his mantel of the spectre, that's literally the first thing he did when he got the spectre power in vol 4 was to try and correct his mistakes.
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- #330
Yes, manifested by Emperor Joker as an actual threat.
Okay, perhaps there's a point there. I still have more 2-A Parallax stuff anyways (that I borrowed from the scans Matthew gave a while ago), so eh.
Okay, perhaps there's a point there. I still have more 2-A Parallax stuff anyways (that I borrowed from the scans Matthew gave a while ago), so eh.
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Not seeing ZHP being 2-A from those scans. The scans dont say ZH is affecting PreC time like the caption does. Also the heroes aren't fighting full power AM they went back to the point in CoIE 7 where he was having trouble with the kryptonians.
No opinion on the rest of the scaling.
No opinion on the rest of the scaling.
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Trigon has 0 2-A feats.
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Okay I just checked all the feats
90% are like Low 2-C at best, He never beat the Spectre, most of the all of time statements come from a universal context, the 52 statement literally contradicts itself by saying "every plane of existence, every world" then saying he would have restored SOME of the COIE
For the Spectre stuff, I already addressed it, It was crispus allen weakend Spectre, Unbound Spectre should by default be far above Parallax anyway
90% are like Low 2-C at best, He never beat the Spectre, most of the all of time statements come from a universal context, the 52 statement literally contradicts itself by saying "every plane of existence, every world" then saying he would have restored SOME of the COIE
For the Spectre stuff, I already addressed it, It was crispus allen weakend Spectre, Unbound Spectre should by default be far above Parallax anyway
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It seems that our repeated points of contention are focused around Parallax and the characters who scale to him. All other revisions are unanimously accepted as far as I can tell. Considering this thread was originally made to revise Fate specifically, perhaps we should just apply the proposed upgrades and discuss further upgrading Parallax in his own thread later?
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@Matthew: Trigon has no direct 2-A feats. His scaling is mostly reliant upon being Spectre-level according to The Monitor. Zark brought this up before as well, and we discussed possibly bumping him to 2-B and keeping it at that, but his absence of low showings makes it difficult to quantify. His peak power is very vague. All we know for sure is that he can destroy universes and The Monitor considers The Spectre and peak Swamp Thing is only competition.
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- #339
Yes, I suppose I agree with SuperAPM on leaving ZH Parallax for the moment.
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@Hykuu: Patato, patahto. The point is that Trigon being 2-A is not entirely without basis, but I can understand the hesitation in giving such a big upgrade to such a vague character without any direct quantifiable feats. The list of proposed upgrades is representative of what the majority on this thread consider acceptable. Trigon has never been my focal point, and I have no strong feelings about whether he's bumped to 2-B or 2-A, personally.
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- #341
Perhaps you should repost all the relevant feats so a justification for the Fates' new AP can be made.
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That might take me a little bit of time. First, I think we should make sure we're moving forward. Ant suggested we start the revision process, but he hasn't said much since then. I'd like make sure we're all on the same page before typing out another essay, if it's all the same. Last time I ended up reposting the proposed revisions 4 times because they kept getting buried by further discussion.
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And there we go. The Fates are the main thing, so their justifications should be created first.
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Okay then. I'll gather up the justifications and leave it to some more experienced members to determine how they should be reflected in the profiles. Just give me a few minutes.
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Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss)- [2-B] Casually erected a forcefield capable of shielding against a blast that created many universes. Comperable to Indra, whose powers could endanger every plane of creation.
Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson)- [2-B] Significantly superior to Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss). Significantly superior to Superman (Pre-Crisis). Superior to Sargon the Sorcerer. Ultimately superior to Dr. Fate (Hector Hall). Comperable to Wota. Considered arguably the most powerful sorcerer in the cosmos. His power is felt in other universes.
Dr. Fate (Hector Hall)- [2-B] Comperable to Post-Crisis Mordru. Considered a prodigy agent of Order. Should be significantly superior to Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss). Has access to 1,000 worlds of magic. Broke a curse cast by The Spectre (Asmodel).
Dr. Fate (Kent & Inza Nelson)- [2-A] Knows the multiverse, sees the infinite, and defeated two renegade Lords of Order and Chaos who threatened the entire multiverse.
Nabu- [2-A] He was implied to be capable of recreating the devastation that happened in Zero Hour. Held his own against an Unbound Spectre. Even after his death, the residual energy left in his helm was enough to endanger all of creation. There is an unending struggle between the forces of Order and Chaos throughout the multiverse. It determines the fate of mortal universes, as well as a number of other realities and dimensions. Nabu is the most powerful Lord of Order or Chaos. Single Lords of Order and Chaos ca warp infinite realities. Together, the Lords of Order and Chaos define the basis of all magic.
The Spectre (Jim Corrigan)- [2-A, Higher with the power of Earth's sorcerers] for being consistently superior to Nabu. All current justifications are sufficient supplimental evidence.
Pre-Crisis Mordru- [2-B] for being superior to Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson). All current justifications are sufficient supplimental evidence.
Post-Crisis Mordru- [2-B] for being comperable to Dr. Fate (Hector Hall). All current justifications are sufficient supplimental evidence.
Unrestricted Mordru- [2-A] Should be comperable to Nabu. There is an unending struggle between the forces of Order and Chaos throughout the multiverse. It determines the fate of mortal universes, as well as a number of other realities and dimensions. Single Lords of Order and Chaos ca warp infinite realities. Together, the Lords of Order and Chaos define the basis of all magic.
Time Trapper- [2-B, 2-A with Preperation] Comperable to Post-Crisis Mordru. All current justifications are sufficient supplimental evidence.
The Infinite Man- [2-B] Current justifications are sufficient.
Darkseid- [2-B as himself] Current justifications are sufficient.
Highfather- [2-B] Current justifications are sufficient.
The Phantom Stranger (Post-Crisis)- [2-A] Current justifications are sufficient.
Parallax- [Varies from 4-B to 2-B depending on the host] Current justifications are sufficient.
Takion- [2-B] Current justifications are sufficient.
The Spectre (Hal Jordan)- [2-A] Withstood Emperor Joker's reality warping madness for far longer than all other magical entities. All current justifications are sufficient supplimental evidence.
Whether Parallax and those related to him are 2-A can be discussed in a later thread, but upgrading the Fates necessitates that he and those around him be upgraded to at least 2-B regardless, so that should be done now. Any further revision regarding those profiles can be discussed in the future.
Lastly, the matter of Trigo.
Trigo (Post-Crisis) should be beyond lower level Fates and Darkseid at a minimum, making him 2-B. In an alternate timeline without Batma or the Teen Titans, Trigo was successfully summoned to Earth and killed Doctor Fate, among others. Furthermore, Rave insisted that Trigo is "perhaps the greatest threat this universe will ever know" in a conversation that name dropped Apokolips. However, his peak power is terribly vague, and never really explored. We have some evidence that he is around The Spectre (Jim Corrigan)'s level due to an analysis given by The Monitor, who would certainly be in a position to objectively judge something like that. And if we go with that explanation, he needs to be upgraded to 2-A. All current justifications are sufficient supplimental evidence, unless we decide to settle for 2-B, in which case, we must remove the mention of The Spectre (Jim Corrigan) that currently sits on his profile.
I'll leave it to you guys to figure out how exactly that should all translate to their profiles.
Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson)- [2-B] Significantly superior to Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss). Significantly superior to Superman (Pre-Crisis). Superior to Sargon the Sorcerer. Ultimately superior to Dr. Fate (Hector Hall). Comperable to Wota. Considered arguably the most powerful sorcerer in the cosmos. His power is felt in other universes.
Dr. Fate (Hector Hall)- [2-B] Comperable to Post-Crisis Mordru. Considered a prodigy agent of Order. Should be significantly superior to Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss). Has access to 1,000 worlds of magic. Broke a curse cast by The Spectre (Asmodel).
Dr. Fate (Kent & Inza Nelson)- [2-A] Knows the multiverse, sees the infinite, and defeated two renegade Lords of Order and Chaos who threatened the entire multiverse.
Nabu- [2-A] He was implied to be capable of recreating the devastation that happened in Zero Hour. Held his own against an Unbound Spectre. Even after his death, the residual energy left in his helm was enough to endanger all of creation. There is an unending struggle between the forces of Order and Chaos throughout the multiverse. It determines the fate of mortal universes, as well as a number of other realities and dimensions. Nabu is the most powerful Lord of Order or Chaos. Single Lords of Order and Chaos ca warp infinite realities. Together, the Lords of Order and Chaos define the basis of all magic.
The Spectre (Jim Corrigan)- [2-A, Higher with the power of Earth's sorcerers] for being consistently superior to Nabu. All current justifications are sufficient supplimental evidence.
Pre-Crisis Mordru- [2-B] for being superior to Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson). All current justifications are sufficient supplimental evidence.
Post-Crisis Mordru- [2-B] for being comperable to Dr. Fate (Hector Hall). All current justifications are sufficient supplimental evidence.
Unrestricted Mordru- [2-A] Should be comperable to Nabu. There is an unending struggle between the forces of Order and Chaos throughout the multiverse. It determines the fate of mortal universes, as well as a number of other realities and dimensions. Single Lords of Order and Chaos ca warp infinite realities. Together, the Lords of Order and Chaos define the basis of all magic.
Time Trapper- [2-B, 2-A with Preperation] Comperable to Post-Crisis Mordru. All current justifications are sufficient supplimental evidence.
The Infinite Man- [2-B] Current justifications are sufficient.
Darkseid- [2-B as himself] Current justifications are sufficient.
Highfather- [2-B] Current justifications are sufficient.
The Phantom Stranger (Post-Crisis)- [2-A] Current justifications are sufficient.
Parallax- [Varies from 4-B to 2-B depending on the host] Current justifications are sufficient.
Takion- [2-B] Current justifications are sufficient.
The Spectre (Hal Jordan)- [2-A] Withstood Emperor Joker's reality warping madness for far longer than all other magical entities. All current justifications are sufficient supplimental evidence.
Whether Parallax and those related to him are 2-A can be discussed in a later thread, but upgrading the Fates necessitates that he and those around him be upgraded to at least 2-B regardless, so that should be done now. Any further revision regarding those profiles can be discussed in the future.
Lastly, the matter of Trigo.
Trigo (Post-Crisis) should be beyond lower level Fates and Darkseid at a minimum, making him 2-B. In an alternate timeline without Batma or the Teen Titans, Trigo was successfully summoned to Earth and killed Doctor Fate, among others. Furthermore, Rave insisted that Trigo is "perhaps the greatest threat this universe will ever know" in a conversation that name dropped Apokolips. However, his peak power is terribly vague, and never really explored. We have some evidence that he is around The Spectre (Jim Corrigan)'s level due to an analysis given by The Monitor, who would certainly be in a position to objectively judge something like that. And if we go with that explanation, he needs to be upgraded to 2-A. All current justifications are sufficient supplimental evidence, unless we decide to settle for 2-B, in which case, we must remove the mention of The Spectre (Jim Corrigan) that currently sits on his profile.
I'll leave it to you guys to figure out how exactly that should all translate to their profiles.
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- #347
I'll just go ahead and apologize for holding this up further, but...
Some feats for the Fates seem more like 2-A than 2-B. Eric/Linda being comparable to someone that can threaten every plane of creation. Hector breaking a curse cast by Asmodel. Kent+Inza knowing the multiverse, seeing the infinite and defeating two that threatened The multiverse. Also the fact that they defeated Lords of Chaos and Order, who you gave quite a few 2-A scans for.
I mean, they can go ahead and be made 2-B now, but I feel like that should still be discussed since they are the main focus of this thread.
Some feats for the Fates seem more like 2-A than 2-B. Eric/Linda being comparable to someone that can threaten every plane of creation. Hector breaking a curse cast by Asmodel. Kent+Inza knowing the multiverse, seeing the infinite and defeating two that threatened The multiverse. Also the fact that they defeated Lords of Chaos and Order, who you gave quite a few 2-A scans for.
I mean, they can go ahead and be made 2-B now, but I feel like that should still be discussed since they are the main focus of this thread.
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ClassicNESfa I don't know if its just a typo or whatever, but it was to my understanding that Kent+Inza was supposed to be 2-A based on all the lists posted previously and a lot of the feats presented as their justification. Might I ask why they're now in the 2-B bracket?
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It was a typo, then? I was shocked for a second.
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The story that Indra was in (the guy Eric & Linda scale to) only described 1001 planes as existing in all of creation, so surprisingly, that feat actually only just barely qualifies as 2-B. Hector breaking a curse cast by Asmodel is impressive, but I'm not entirely certain how to scale it because it's so different from your typical AP feat. You are correct about Kent & Inza though. I had listed them as 2-B by accident. They should be 2-A, so I went back and revised the mistake. Thanks for pointing that out.
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- #351
Well, Hector did do it via magic, and that is the Fates main thing... but really, Indra only described 1,001 planes in creation? That's peculiar, but if that's the case then never mind, the Fates look good at 2-B.
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Well, Indra himself wasn't the one to describe it, but yeah. You've got the general idea.
I also cut Kent V Nelso out of my analysis because I ultimately decided the justification I gave for making him Low 2-C was not very well thought through or backed up by any kind of supplimental evidence. I really don't know much about that character and probably should have just stayed quiet on him until revisiting the topic later. He's pretty obscure and doesn't necessarily need a key right away.
Regardless, I do not know how to unlock profiles or how to add new keys (or even pictures), so the execution of this overhaul really should be handled by one of you more experienced members. You can also feel free to rework my justifications if you like. I recognize that they may not be worded perfectly.
Here is a picture of Unrestricted Mordru in one of his few appearances for whoever needs it.
I also cut Kent V Nelso out of my analysis because I ultimately decided the justification I gave for making him Low 2-C was not very well thought through or backed up by any kind of supplimental evidence. I really don't know much about that character and probably should have just stayed quiet on him until revisiting the topic later. He's pretty obscure and doesn't necessarily need a key right away.
Regardless, I do not know how to unlock profiles or how to add new keys (or even pictures), so the execution of this overhaul really should be handled by one of you more experienced members. You can also feel free to rework my justifications if you like. I recognize that they may not be worded perfectly.
Here is a picture of Unrestricted Mordru in one of his few appearances for whoever needs it.
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What was your justification for Kent V again?
We need Ant to unlock the profiles, but I can handle editing the pages if you aren't comfortable with it.
We need Ant to unlock the profiles, but I can handle editing the pages if you aren't comfortable with it.
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I just said he was somewhat comperable to The Spectre (Crispus Allen), but like I mentioned before, scaling characters to The Spectre is tricky. I'd feel more comfortable with it if I had more to go off of.
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Right, okay. Just remembered I need to add Crispus into the Parallax revision.
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There are a few spelling mistakes, such as writing "comperable" rather than "comparable", and profiles such as Superma should be properly linked to when mentioned.
I also agree with that the 1001 universes needs to be clarified a bit, as the feat currently sounds like 2-A rather than 2-B to a casual visitor.
The rest seems mostly acceptable to me.
I am personally fine with a "Likely 2-A" Trigon based on the above justifications.
I also agree with that the 1001 universes needs to be clarified a bit, as the feat currently sounds like 2-A rather than 2-B to a casual visitor.
The rest seems mostly acceptable to me.
I am personally fine with a "Likely 2-A" Trigon based on the above justifications.
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I reworded the Fate justifications a bit to fit perfectly on the profile.
Eric and Linda Strauss - Multiverse level (Comparable to Indra, whose power could endanger 1,001 planes of creation. Casually erected a barrier that could defend against a blast that created many universes)
Hector Hall - Multiverse level (As he is potentially the greatest Doctor Fate, he should be superior to Eric and Linda Strauss. Has access to 1,000 worlds of magic)
Kent Nelson - Multiverse level (Superior to Hector Hall. Significantly superior to Eric and Linda Strauss. His power can be felt in other universes. Arguably the most powerful sorcerer in the cosmos)
Kent and Inza Nelson - Multiverse level+ (Defeated two renegade Lords of Order and Chaos, who threatened the multiverse. Knows the multiverse and sees the infinite)
Nabu - Multiverse level+ (Implied he could reverse the events of Zero Hour, which was directly compared to the Crisis on Infinite Earths. The energy remaining after his death was enough to endanger all creation. The most powerful of the Lords of Order and Chaos, and single Lords of Order and Chaos can warp infinite realities)
If these look fine to everyone, then I can add these to Doctor Fate (Classic) once it's unlocked. I can update all those that scale after this.
Eric and Linda Strauss - Multiverse level (Comparable to Indra, whose power could endanger 1,001 planes of creation. Casually erected a barrier that could defend against a blast that created many universes)
Hector Hall - Multiverse level (As he is potentially the greatest Doctor Fate, he should be superior to Eric and Linda Strauss. Has access to 1,000 worlds of magic)
Kent Nelson - Multiverse level (Superior to Hector Hall. Significantly superior to Eric and Linda Strauss. His power can be felt in other universes. Arguably the most powerful sorcerer in the cosmos)
Kent and Inza Nelson - Multiverse level+ (Defeated two renegade Lords of Order and Chaos, who threatened the multiverse. Knows the multiverse and sees the infinite)
Nabu - Multiverse level+ (Implied he could reverse the events of Zero Hour, which was directly compared to the Crisis on Infinite Earths. The energy remaining after his death was enough to endanger all creation. The most powerful of the Lords of Order and Chaos, and single Lords of Order and Chaos can warp infinite realities)
If these look fine to everyone, then I can add these to Doctor Fate (Classic) once it's unlocked. I can update all those that scale after this.
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I am fine with those changes. Although, if we are going to be specific about the Eric and Linda Strauss feats, perhaps it should also be mentioned somewhere that the explosion they shielded against was implied to have recreated all 1,001 universes that were present in that run? Just a thought. Not 100% necessary. Other than that, I'm good with it. Feel free to go ahead and add them.
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