DMC Downgrades (the ones everyone expected)

[Palito266]

womp womp

Anyways, yall are making this thread ******* Miserable, so keep falsely accusing me of shit and I'll take this to the RVR.

Ok let me explain this without my head exploding.
The PoC translation thing (Context: where we confirmed that it meant spatial/geometrical dimensions) was another thing, because it was talking SPECIFICALLY about dimensions (You'll see why i'm saying this).
Now for this, this is another case in which we need to look at the context in which's talking about, and it seems it's talking about the realm of the humans being powerless against the realm of the demons in most ways, be humans being weaker and the realm just getting swallowed because of size difference. Avoid extrapolating words like these on contexts that are different

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Stop wasting everyones time Dog. This "muh metaphor" bullshit has been debunked in last threads multiple times.

Bring new arguements instead of stonewalling with disingenuous behaviour.

 

[RedReaper]

I also want to point out that the Darkness being infinite isn’t flavor text, or just a sketchy localization. The RAWs, official TL, and Fan TL by Red, and the Devil’s Lair TL, all share the same line, with the very Kanji being “Infinite/Endless Darkness,” or “果てなき闇.”

I can't believe I have to do this AGAIN.

Here are 3 SEPARATE TLS of the same thing.

Then there is MadDog's, which ALSO was translated into NEAR IDENTICAL TEXT.

I think it's very clear that if FOUR DIFFERENT SOURCES all CLAIM THE SAME MESSAGE, then PERHAPS those FOUR HUMAN TLS are better than the BOTS'.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

If this goes in any further, I will make staff create a discussion rule on this.

 

[KLOL506]

I walk out of this thread and not even a few hours this "ray of light thing is metaphor" bullshit just goes wildfire mode.

Honestly, how the hell did people come to that conclusion here given everything we've seen in the source material? I don't get it.

 

[RedReaper]

Like, it'd be one thing there was any valid basis other than the word itself having various meanings, but those meanings are OFTEN decided by meanings of other words within the same sentence, with various modifiers to words. That's basic language.

FURTHER, it's been translated by 4 different sources, and NONE of them have gotten hope. They ALL have gotten "The Light is the Human World."

Maybe in the Phantom Zone 4 sources verifying each other means jackshit and words can mean anything, but that's not the case HERE.

Edit: Also, FUNNY THING in that screenshot. The FIRST OPTION that popped up was...say it with me...LIGHT.

It's ALMOST like they ALL agree as to what that sentence means.

2nd Edit: THIS is why I said it literally could not be translated into hope. 4 sources, technically 5 with the bot, ALL say the same thing. It's very CLEAR what the message is.

 

[LordGinSama]

I walk out of this thread and not even a few hours this "ray of light thing is metaphor" bullshit just goes wildfire mode.

Honestly, how the hell did people come to that conclusion here given everything we've seen in the source material? I don't get it.

News flash: A lot of us don't lmfao. I'm about as ignorant of DMC as it can get barring the first few ps2 games (******* Dante must die still gives me Nam flash backs like the ******* flying medsua heads in Castlevania.) and I can still comprehend what the statement is trying to get across.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Like, it'd be one thing there was any valid basis other than the word itself having various meanings, but those meanings are OFTEN decided by meanings of other words within the same sentence, with various modifiers to words. That's basic language.

People often forget Context is King.

Just because you have dozens of synonyms for a word in Thesaurus, doesn't mean you can mix and match various words in a sentence with impunity for sake being a contrarian.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Could you just calm down? You’re always one comment off of blowing up this wiki and it’s not the first time this has been told to you.

You accuse others of lying yet start a nuclear meltdown when others do the same. The points just aren’t getting through to one another, so leave it to staff.

I uh

Literally just posted a scan supporting my argument.

And told people that if they kept baselessly accusing me of lying, I would take things to the RVR.

Neither of those are blowing up.

I am deliberately trying to keep things as civil as possible and yall still find ways to demonize me. Man, I love it here.

No, you can't just saying this kind of interpretation without back-up contexts, your interpretation & assumption of the texts need proof, which currently burden on your shoulder to prove that the ray of light statement is metaphor about hope. However the contexts of the verse make clear that it isn't because Human World can't even fight back against Demon until a Demon Knight help them, so there is no hope contexts here, also back then there is no two worlds, only 1 world which both Human World and Demon Realm is a part of, then Pluto split the original world into two with his spear, so there is no metaphorical of hope involved here

Ok let me explain this without my head exploding.
The PoC translation thing (Context: where we confirmed that it meant spatial/geometrical dimensions) was another thing, because it was talking SPECIFICALLY about dimensions (You'll see why i'm saying this).
Now for this, this is another case in which we need to look at the context in which's talking about, and it seems it's talking about the realm of the humans being powerless against the realm of the demons in most ways, be humans being weaker and the realm just getting swallowed because of size difference. Avoid extrapolating words like these on contexts that are different

It isn't. Those specific pages are only talking about the separation of the two worlds, one being a world of light and the other being unending darkness. The HW being powerless against the DW is not mentioned here.

Stop wasting everyones time Dog. This "muh metaphor" bullshit has been debunked in last threads multiple times.

Bring new arguements instead of stonewalling with disingenuous behaviour.

Nobody has given an actual debunk beyond a lack of understanding of what a metaphor even is, so if those old threads were any similar than I don't exactly place much value in them. And we're up to what, 5-6 lies about me in this thread? You can just say you hate me, you know.

I can't believe I have to do this AGAIN.

Here are 3 SEPARATE TLS of the same thing.

Then there is MadDog's, which ALSO was translated into NEAR IDENTICAL TEXT.

I think it's very clear that if FOUR DIFFERENT SOURCES all CLAIM THE SAME MESSAGE, then PERHAPS those FOUR HUMAN TLS are better than the BOTS'.

And, as I said, the "ray of light" thing is still metaphorical, because it being taken 100% literally is absurd and creates a hypothetical world where all of reality is composed of photons. Obviously, that isn't the case, so the world isn't literally a ray of light.

If this goes in any further, I will make staff create a discussion rule on this.

The argument isn't even over, and staff (including those who explicitly said they would wait to give their opinions on the matter) have still not weighed in. This is just an attempt to silence dissent.

 

[KLOL506]

I uh

Literally just posted a scan supporting my argument.

And told people that if they kept baselessly accusing me of lying, I would take things to the RVR.

Neither of those are blowing up.

I am deliberately trying to keep things as civil as possible and yall still find ways to demonize me. Man, I love it here.

Can we stop with the petty accusations, please?

It isn't. Those specific pages are only talking about the separation of the two worlds, one being a world of light and the other being unending darkness. The HW being powerless against the DW is not mentioned here.

Then you need to read the part about the entire structure being thrown into turmoil where Pluto then separates the two worlds to avoid further turmoil. That's like... a pretty important plot point in the prologue of the manga.

Nobody has given an actual debunk beyond a lack of understanding of what a metaphor even is, so if those old threads were any similar than I don't exactly place much value in them. And we're up to what, 5-6 lies about me in this thread? You can just say you hate me, you know.

Again, can you stop with the accusatory comments? It makes you look like you're the one blowing up here throwing words at others without it meaning anything.

And, as I said, the "ray of light" thing is still metaphorical, because it being taken 100% literally is absurd and creates a hypothetical world where all of reality is composed of photons. Obviously, that isn't the case, so the world isn't literally a ray of light.

Fujiwara, all the translations I have seen so far here explicitly refer to the ray of light being the HW. The context is blatant in this case that this isn't referring to emotions like hope or whatever the **** you're spewing, burden of proof is on you to show that it means what you think it means, not us.

The argument isn't even over, and staff (including those who explicitly said they would wait to give their opinions on the matter) have still not weighed in. This is just an attempt to silence dissent.

And yet you're the one blowing up saying stuff like metaphors in a place where metaphors would make no ******* sense whatsoever.

 

[Palito266]

And, as I said, the "ray of light" thing is still metaphorical, because it being taken 100% literally is absurd and creates a hypothetical world where all of reality is composed of photons. Obviously, that isn't the case, so the world isn't literally a ray of light.

Ok listen, but what IF the metaphor is that the ray of light isn't an actual ray of light but rather a COMPARISON between the Human World AND the Demon World?

 

[KLOL506]

Ok listen, but what IF the metaphor is that the ray of light isn't an actual ray of light but rather a COMPARISON between the Human World AND the Demon World?

That's literally what it looks like to me. Even back when I had little to no DMC knowledge before I honed it somewhat, even I knew that using this light to be a metaphor would be a completely dumb and stupid idea because it butchers the narrative importance of the formation of the Human World, if it really was about hope then neither side would be thrown into turmoil over their constant conflicts with each other.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

And, as I said, the "ray of light" thing is still metaphorical, because it being taken 100% literally is absurd and creates a hypothetical world where all of reality is composed of photons. Obviously, that isn't the case, so the world isn't literally a ray of light.

Same arguements, different day.
Bring something new.
I don't even have patience to copy paste my debunks on this from last thread.

The argument isn't even over, and staff (including those who explicitly said they would wait to give their opinions on the matter) have still not weighed in. This is just an attempt to silence dissent.

This isn't dissent, this is just denial.
Which is wasting everyones times.
Rest of us have jobs and/or schools too just like you. Just read the past thread and satisfy yourself.
I am not going to entertain rehashed debunked arguements.

 

[Robo432343]

Ok listen, but what IF the metaphor is that the ray of light isn't an actual ray of light but rather a COMPARISON between the Human World AND the Demon World?

actually yeah
that makes it way easier to understand

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Can we stop with the petty accusations, please?

Yeah. The DMC supporters can go first, though.

Then you need to read the part about the entire structure being thrown into turmoil where Pluto then separates the two worlds to avoid further turmoil. That's like... a pretty important plot point in the prologue of the manga.

I'm not entirely sure what relevance that has. It doesn't seem to imply a difference in size or power, anyways.

And besides, isn't the HW where all the demon hunters live? That doesn't sound powerless to me, considering they uh, tend to beat the demons most of the time.

Again, can you stop with the accusatory comments? It makes you look like you're the one blowing up here throwing words at others without it meaning anything.

Stonewalling is a hell of an accusation when I've made like 10 or so posts on this topic and we've been on it for like half a page. That seems a pretty low bar for stonewalling to me, especially on a controversial topic. And trust me, I've seen some pretty bad stonewalls in my day.

Fujiwara, all the translations I have seen so far here explicitly refer to the ray of light being the HW. The context is blatant in this case that this isn't referring to emotions like hope or whatever the **** you're spewing, burden of proof is on you to show that it means what you think it means, not us.

You are completely missing the point. I threw it out as a valid interpretation (which has not been debunked), not as the end-all be-all. It means we cannot conclusively say it refers to qualitative superiority, which is why I literally support the verse being 2-C, possibly low 1-C.

And yet you're the one blowing up saying stuff like metaphors in a place where metaphors would make no ******* sense whatsoever.

"Blowing up"
Maybe my childhood was just shitty or yall are overly sensitive, but I can't help but think the standards for "blowing up" here are awfully low.

Same arguements, different day.
Bring something new.
I don't even have patience to copy paste my debunks on this from last thread.

So no attempt is even being made to debunk the point, got it. You could at least link the previous thread, you know.

This isn't dissent, this is just denial.
Which is wasting everyones times.
Rest of us have jobs and/or schools too just like you. Just read the past thread and satisfy yourself.
I am not going to entertain rehashed debunked arguements.

Not how that works. You don't get to just make a discussion rule whenever you want. The topic needs to be discussed to the point of exhaustion, and consistently approved or denied by staff. The former I haven't seen evidence of, and the latter certainly hasn't happened yet. Like I said, this is attempting to silence discussion before the mods get to have a say.

Ok listen, but what IF the metaphor is that the ray of light isn't an actual ray of light but rather a COMPARISON between the Human World AND the Demon World?

I'll repost this, where someone I got to translate the text is confident there is no direct comparison between the two, metaphorical or otherwise.

 

[Dienomite22]

I'm not seeing anything that would indicate the light isn't the human world. If the human world is literally called the ray of light in other canon material in a way that can't mean anything other than literal even after being translated a billion times then why is it being argued? This seems like a massive shift in goal for the purpose of this thread.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm not seeing anything that would indicate the light isn't the human world. If the human world is literally called the ray of light in other canon material in a way that can't mean anything other than literal even after being translated a billion times then why is it being argued? This seems like a massive shift in goal for the purpose of this thread.

I never said it wasn't the human world.

 

[Palito266]

I'll repost this, where someone I got to translate the text is confident there is no direct comparison between the two, metaphorical or otherwise.

I mean yeah sure SOMEONE might see that there is no size correlation but like that is HIS perspective. You need to explain to US what HE is trying to say, or at the very least, explain your idea in a way it doesn't shit the lore up

 

[Robo432343]

I'll repost this, where someone I got to translate the text is confident there is no direct comparison between the two, metaphorical or otherwise.

can you ask Gelium if they read the DMC Manga or played the games? Context matters here

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I mean yeah sure SOMEONE might see that there is no size correlation but like that is HIS perspective. You need to explain to US what HE is trying to say, or at the very least, explain your idea in a way it doesn't shit the lore up

He's trying to say there is no size comparison between the HW and DW on these pages. I thought that was pretty clear.

can you ask Gelium if they read the DMC Manga or played the games? Context matters here

Context won't change the fact that they aren't even being compared to begin with.

 

[Palito266]

He's trying to say there is no size comparison between the HW and DW on these pages. I thought that was pretty clear.

And did you explain to him all of DMC's context and what this implies right here?

 

[RedReaper]

Yeah. The DMC supporters can go first, though.





Stonewalling is a hell of an accusation when I've made like 10 or so posts on this topic and we've been on it for like half a page. That seems a pretty low bar for stonewalling to me, especially on a controversial topic. And trust me, I've seen some pretty bad stonewalls in my day.


You are completely missing the point. I threw it out as a valid interpretation (which has not been debunked), not as the end-all be-all. It means we cannot conclusively say it refers to qualitative superiority, which is why I literally support the verse being 2-C, possibly low 1-C.


"Blowing up"
Maybe my childhood was just shitty or yall are overly sensitive, but I can't help but think the standards for "blowing up" here are awfully low.


So no attempt is even being made to debunk the point, got it. You could at least link the previous thread, you know.


Not how that works. You don't get to just make a discussion rule whenever you want. The topic needs to be discussed to the point of exhaustion, and consistently approved or denied by staff. The former I haven't seen evidence of, and the latter certainly hasn't happened yet. Like I said, this is attempting to silence discussion before the mods get to have a say.


I'll repost this, where someone I got to translate the text is confident there is no direct comparison between the two, metaphorical or otherwise.

Okay.

Wanna see something cool?

How about THREE SEPARATE TLs, (the official TL, Fan TL by Red, and the Devil’s Lair TL), saying that one is a streak, ray, (your TL) beam, or line in comparison to what is PREFACED as something that can be TL'd as “Infinite/Endless Darkness,” or “果てなき闇.” And in YOUR TL, it says "...even in THIS WORLD." You know, the one YOUR TLer said was unending Darkness?

So let me read it nice and proper for ya.

"Even in this world {of unending darkness}, one beam of light shined."

Now, doesn't that read as if it's trying to imply one is quite infinite, and one is quite NOT?

Which parallels the 3 other TLs that say the SAME THING?

Strange, isn't it?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I never said it wasn't the human world.

Then why the ruckus? Don't act innocent.

Not how that works. You don't get to just make a discussion rule whenever you want. The topic needs to be discussed to the point of exhaustion, and consistently approved or denied by staff. The former I haven't seen evidence of, and the latter certainly hasn't happened yet. Like I said, this is attempting to silence discussion before the mods get to have a say.

It has been discussed to exhaustion, if you had actually read the CRTs of the past, because your entire CRT and every of your points is rehash of old arguements.

There's enough incentive to make it a discussion rule.
I will pitch that request.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And did you explain to him all of DMC's context and what this implies right here?

And what does it imply if the HW and DW aren't compared here, hm?

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah. The DMC supporters can go first, though.

Again with these accusations?

I'm not entirely sure what relevance that has. It doesn't seem to imply a difference in size or power, anyways.

The humans being completely overwhelmed is one part, further reinforced by Mundus then remerging them.

And besides, isn't the HW where all the demon hunters live? That doesn't sound powerless to me, considering they uh, tend to beat the demons most of the time.

That's a long-ass while after Sparda and all that jazz.

Stonewalling is a hell of an accusation when I've made like 10 or so posts on this topic and we've been on it for like half a page. That seems a pretty low bar for stonewalling to me, especially on a controversial topic. And trust me, I've seen some pretty bad stonewalls in my day.

Fujiwara, trust me when I say this, this isn't stonewalling, because I'd know, I've seen some hilariously bad stonewalls that have driven me to the edge before, this is just you losing your cool, just... calm down, take a minute, breathe in and out, and then come back to this again with a focused mind.

You are completely missing the point. I threw it out as a valid interpretation (which has not been debunked), not as the end-all be-all. It means we cannot conclusively say it refers to qualitative superiority, which is why I literally support the verse being 2-C, possibly low 1-C.

Yeah no I'm not buying this one bit, especially when your interpretation hinges on all of this being a fight for good and evil, when that fight doesn't happen until way after Pluto is dead and Mundus has completed the merge, so forgive me if I don't find your arguments convincing enough.

"Blowing up"
Maybe my childhood was just shitty or yall are overly sensitive, but I can't help but think the standards for "blowing up" here are awfully low.

You're not the only one here with a shitty childhood Fujiwara, and if I were you, I wouldn't be comparing shit like this just to prove whose point is better.

Not how that works. You don't get to just make a discussion rule whenever you want. The topic needs to be discussed to the point of exhaustion, and consistently approved or denied by staff.

Guess you need to be around DMC threads more often then.

I'll repost this, where someone I got to translate the text is confident there is no direct comparison between the two, metaphorical or otherwise.

Unending darkness

Beam of light

I don't think I need to explain this one to you, this is basic common sense that you seem to be unable to grasp at this state.

 

[Planck69]

I find it baffling that this much mental danmaku dodging level gymnastics are being thrown around.

The Human World is a ray of light in comparison from what I can understand. I can agree with that much.

Also, @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara I know I'm probably repeating what everyone else said but I think you need to hear one last time. People can disagree with you without having some blood vendetta against you. So calm down with the accusations and self-victimization.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Then why the ruckus? Don't act innocent.

???

It has been discussed to exhaustion, if you had actually read the CRTs of the past, because your entire CRT and every of your points is rehash of old arguements.

There's enough incentive to make it a discussion rule.
I will pitch that request.

Yes, I'm sure the mods will fully agree with creating a discussion rule that just so happens to silence an ongoing thread.

 

[Palito266]

And what does it imply if the HW and DW aren't compared here, hm?

Yes or no? Simple answer, did you tell him

 

[Dienomite22]

I never said it wasn't the human world.

Yes but your "ray of light is metaphorical" argument isn't acknowledging that the human world is a ray of light by comparison to the unending endless blah blah darkness.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yes or no? Simple answer, did you tell him

I'm asking if it matters if I told him.

 

[KLOL506]

Yes, I'm sure the mods will fully agree with creating a discussion rule that just so happens to silence an ongoing thread.

IDK chief, from what I'm looking at here your arguments don't exactly hold that much salt, I'd be pressed to agree with Gilver on this one.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Yes, I'm sure the mods will fully agree with creating a discussion rule that just so happens to silence an ongoing thread.

Don't worry, I have manners untill this thread is resolved.
But rest assured there will be a discussion rule debarring these old arguements, once this CRT is over.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm asking if it matters if I told him.

YES IT DOES. It absolutely matters if you told him everything about the prior game stuff so that they can nail the context.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also, @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara I know I'm probably repeating what everyone else said but I think you need to hear one last time. People can disagree with you without having some blood vendetta against you. So calm down with the accusations and self-victimization.

There is a difference between disagreeing and outright accusing me of lying and manipulating information or even silencing the opposing party. I can deal with the former. The latter is a lot more annoying to handle.

 

[Palito266]

I'm asking if it matters if I told him.

Maybe if you told me that it absolutely ***** the lore he would've considered it twice don't you think

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

YES IT DOES. It absolutely matters if you told him everything about the prior game stuff so that they can nail the context.

I'm asking what context is so vital that it would change the fact that the DW and HW are not directly compared in that statement.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Maybe if you told me that it absolutely ***** the lore he would've considered it twice don't you think

You've said this multiple times now and have not elaborated on how it would mess up the lore. Please explain.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm asking what context is so vital that it would change the fact that the DW and HW are not directly compared in that statement.

Only if you have no idea how prefacing a sentence works.

"UNENDING DARKNESS"

"RAY OF LIGHT".

This is painfully obvious. How can you still not see that?

 

[Palito266]

You've said this multiple times now and have not elaborated on how it would mess up the lore. Please explain.

The translations redreaper posted:
The context itself:

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Only if you have no idea how prefacing a sentence works.

"UNENDING DARKNESS"

"RAY OF LIGHT".

This is painfully obvious. How can you still not see that?

Two statements of two things existing is not comparing them, KLOL. Unending darkness exists. A ray of light exists (which, may I remind you, we are never given the size of this ray of light so a comparison is quite literally impossible). That is what we are told, and they are not compared; No "the HW is merely a ray of light compared to the infinite DW", nothing. You are extrapolating information that isn't there.