Discussion about the Hong Kong 97 verse and similar verse which possibly have controversial political contents

[Agnaa]

So are all bootlegs free game?

Unless they violate other rules, sure? I don't know why we'd require games to be verified by the publisher to allow them.

Something that makes disallowing bootlegs seem real weird to me, is that games of X quality are only bootlegs on consoles with quality control. There can't really be bootlegs on PC, because there's no quality control to be subverted. And allowing games of one quality on one platform, while disallowing games of the same quality on another platform, seems like a weird policy to have.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's not about how good or how popular they are, they need to have notable publishers. This wiki is for copyright characters.

 

[Agnaa]

It's not about how good or how popular they are, they need to have notable publishers. This wiki is for copyright characters.

It isn't though. We have tons of self-published works. Parahumans (Verse) and SCP Foundatio as some of the most notable examples.

And, like every other time using copyright as a measuring stick has been suggested, that is an absolutely awful way to decide what works are allowed. Firstly, copyright is automatic, so everything gets it by default. Secondly, if you want a more manual thing like trademarks, then any sufficiently obsessed shitty author can get their work trademarked through a few forms and a couple hundred bucks. It'd merely weed out legitimately popular creators who don't bother with that.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Promestein, Kepekley, and Medeus make good points. We should probably delete the game then, although for notability reasons, not because it goes against the Chinese government.

Also, afaIk Wikipedia is banned in China, except for their army of state editors that systematically remove referenced mentions of atrocities performed by their government.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I think we should move it to Joke Battles Wiki, since the verse seems to have quite a few supporters and they would like to see profiles for it.

 

[Antvasima]

That is probably fine.

 

[Mariogoods]

That is probably fine.

Could I interrupt the discussions for a while? I think that moving it to joke battles is more suitable for reasons given above. And I'd like to say if we can add the profiles from the highly promoted verse such as Wolf Warriors. The issue is also methioned above.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I think it should be fine to make profiles for Wolf Warriors, since I don't think it breaks any rules.

 

[Agnaa]

There aren't notability issues, it's a pretty notorious game. For one, this AVGN video on it has over 8 million views, and it's well known in the "bad video game" discussion scene. As its wikipedia page shows it's had many articles written about it.

This seems like a really perverse enforcement of the notability guidelines, if something with this much coverage is considered non-notable...

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am neutral then.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We all know about AVGN's video on it, and how infamous the game is. But it's still more like a movie licenced game. We do allow video game versions of Michael Myers, Leatherface, and Jason Vorhees. The last one was made by LJN and the other two were made for the Atari 2600. Though, anyone can make a game for the Atari 2600 and you don't need to be licenced by Atari to have it sold in stores.

So I'm also more neutral, but at the very least, I think we should rename the verse page to it's video game version if we keep it. And we could move it to Joke Battles wiki if we decide to delete it.

 

[Kepekley23]

The quality and the notability aren't the problem. Both of you, stop bringing AVGN, notability, quality, the movie that it has absolutely zero relationship to, and missing the point I'm trying to make. I have already outlined why it shouldn't be here quite clearly.

 

[Genericstickman]

ABGN? Angry Baby Gamer Nerd?

 

[Antvasima]

The thing with Hong Kong 97 is that it's not an official game that is just bad. It's an unpublished bootleg game that could only originally be played with an illegally unlocked SNES. And not just that, half of the game's fame is attributed to the massive amount of copyrighted content used without permission, such as the Chin character being Jackie Chan, the main villain being a cropped sprite of real-life Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping, and the Coca Cola propagandas in the background.

The other half of its fame comes from the fact that a real picture of a dead body, a victim from the Bosnian Civil War, is used, rather tastelessly, as the Game Over screen whenever your character dies. Less famously, it uses a picture of Holocaust victims to illustrate Chin killing the entire Chinese communist population.

Okay. Never mind then. I think that we should delete this.

 

[Agnaa]

I was responding to other people, Kep, I gave my response to you above.

@Kep Wattpad fanfics are disanalagous. They're fan-fiction taking place in an established verse, causing issues with scaling and canonicity. Hong Kong 97 doesn't rely on an established verse.

 

[Everyone_is_die]

i mean deleting it is fine but just trashing it and throwing it onto joke battles wiki seems disrepsectful

 

[KLOL506]

This page is prolly fine. Only time we really need to worry about the Chinese on this site is when they conquer us all, which will likely never happen. Not to mention it's meant as a joke to all Nintendo games, and basically anything entertainment worth is what China views as harmful to society, so we can all show the finger to the Chinese government since they can't do shit to some niche debating site like ours anyways and carry on.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Wattpad fanfics are disanalagous. They're fan-fiction taking place in an established verse, causing issues with scaling and canonicity

What about an "original" fanfiction universe, which is what I intended with my comparison? Should they be allowed as well?

 

[Agnaa]

What about an "original" fanfiction universe, which is what I intended with my comparison? Should they be allowed as well?

Sure, if it's popular enough. Literally every piece of writing ever is "original fanfiction". If you're talking about copyright/license requirements, I already responded to that:

It isn't though. We have tons of self-published works. Parahumans (Verse) and SCP Foundatio as some of the most notable examples.

And, like every other time using copyright as a measuring stick has been suggested, that is an absolutely awful way to decide what works are allowed. Firstly, copyright is automatic, so everything gets it by default. Secondly, if you want a more manual thing like trademarks, then any sufficiently obsessed shitty author can get their work trademarked through a few forms and a couple hundred bucks. It'd merely weed out legitimately popular creators who just don't bother with that.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Sure, if it's popular enough.

Hong Kong 97 is a bootleg game made outside Nintendo's permission only to be played through a hacked SNES, containing tons of copyrighted content not owned by the original developer, and tossing pictures of real war victims' mangled dead bodies left and right to illustrate the game's goal of wiping out the entirety of China's communist population, as well as prominently shown whenever your character dies.

If this is allowed, then sure.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that we should allow such content, despite that I heavily dislike the Chinese government (they have over a 1000 almost Nazi-style concentration camps after all).

 

[00potato]

Tell me, how is any of this a problem?

 

[Agnaa]

>bootleg game

We allow games of equal bootleg-quality from Atari 2600, PC, mobile, browser, and any other platform that doesn't enforce quality standards. Why should we apply unequal standards to the SNES?

>containing tons of copyrighted content

I'm a little bit worried about how this is going to be enforced, if copying any copyrighted material, even if the essence of the original work isn't referenced or required for understanding the new work. Does JoJo having a stand user that summons copyrighted characters count? Does Chowder having a character go Super Saiyan count?

I'm also especially worried, because the "copyrighted material" is "two pictures of real people and the inclusion of coca-cola". I don't need to tell you how much media has caricatures of real people in it, sometimes taking from real pictures of them.

>real war victims' mangled dead bodies

Well yeah, the game was made to be shitty and offensive in that way. Are we banning profiles for being provocative/offensive in this way?

 

[Kepekley23]

My investment on the subject is not sufficient to care that much, so if you actually want to keep this verse, go ahead.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that this seems to set a bad precedent if the content is as bad as Kepekley told us.

 

[Agnaa]

Depending on what you remove it for, it could set a much worse precedent, imo, but I'd need someone to actually talk to about it.

 

[00potato]

I think that this seems to set a bad precedent if the content is as bad as Kepekley told us.

Why? How is this a "bad precedent." This page has been here for a while. What bad precedent has it caused as of now? The Wikia is not in any danger due to this. So why bow down to China for no reason?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is more the copyrighted content, the unofficial nature of the game, the real life dead bodies, and the advocacy for genocide that may set a bad precedent. As some of you know, I am fiercely opposed to all forms of fascism, but I also want the wiki itself to stay as uncontroversial as possible.

 

[00potato]

Agnaa already dealt with those points well enough so I will let this slide.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Agnaa made some good points. I am neutral then.

 

[00potato]

I guess this is concluded then. Long live Hong Kong 97z

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh yeah, I did forget to mention that the game does contain illegal content. Like the creator of the game did violate various copyright laws in making the game. And the fact that real dead bodies appear in the game does show how illegal it is. Sure none of the images contain that; and we do allow Mature content themed verses as long as the profiles lack mature content, but the difference is that mature content isn't illegal per say.

Allowing this game would be similar to allowing the movie "Where the Dead go to Die" on the wiki. We kind of had to go through long discussions to allow verses such as Monster Girl back on the wiki. But I really don't think verses that contain actual dead bodies of RL people would be very appropriate. Don't get me started on what type of content WtDgtD has; but if I mentioned it. I think everyone would agree with that verse being banned.

 

[Agnaa]

Both South Park games are illegal in their initial state in Australia, they had to be censored for a wider release.

Also I'm 99.99% sure that pictures of real dead bodies aren't illegal, just in bad taste.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't know, Logan Paul got in deep shit when he uploaded a video with a real dead body in its on YouTube. And honestly, stuff like "Reddit.com/Watch People Die" is also something Law Enforcement are plotting to ban worldwide.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah, because that violates YouTube ToS, as well as social decency.

There's many websites that host real pictures of dead bodies with no action being taken against them.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Oh yeah, I did forget to mention that the game does contain illegal content. Like the creator of the game did violate various copyright laws in making the game. And the fact that real dead bodies appear in the game does show how illegal it is. Sure none of the images contain that; and we do allow Mature content themed verses as long as the profiles lack mature content, but the difference is that mature content isn't illegal per say.
Allowing this game would be similar to allowing the movie "Where the Dead go to Die" on the wiki. We kind of had to go through long discussions to allow verses such as Monster Girl back on the wiki. But I really don't think verses that contain actual dead bodies of RL people would be very appropriate. Don't get me started on what type of content WtDgtD has; but if I mentioned it. I think everyone would agree with that verse being banned.

Pretty off topic here, but WtDgtD is so awful of a thing that it doesn't even count as a legitamate verse, It makes Fortnite and Masada look like The Godfather in comparison

Anyway, I think we NEED some thread on quality control of this wiki. From Cool Cat, to Invisible Dragon, to this, we need to figure out what is just too low quality for a proper place here.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I agree with DDM.

 

[Agnaa]

I can't wait for the quality surveyors to go through every verse on the site and arbitrarily decide what's too shit to be on the wiki.

That's a joke btw, I know that anything like this would only have them looking at verses reported to them, leading to incredible amounts of bias, with verses being reported out of spite, while still not catching random shitty verses that no-one would care to report like Granny (Game).

I also can't wait for the flame wars when a bunch of people think a verse is shit, yet a bunch of its fans sincerely and adamantly defend it. I will actually get some perverse satisfaction seeing all these "high quality verses only!" people slowly realize how stupid and unenforceable of an idea that is.