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Discord vs Joker (Ren Amamiya)

I mean... Maybe? He would rather shoot, then attack, then maybe talk. But by that time he would be already dead (pun intended).

Also, now that I've reading it closely "Even untrained and inexperienced in negotiations, Ren was capable of convincing Shadows to betray their current master and join his side within the span of a single conversation, so long as he was strong enough to handle their power."

Also, I would like to remind, that Fluttershy was able to convince him only because she is his best and first friend and he naturally listens to her more than to anyone else. And Tirek is one of the most cunning and manipulative characters in the verse.
 
That last section of the negotiation is referring to if Joker can use them as Personas or not. But that should be removed since iirc a certain confident rank negates it.
 
"Tirek is one of the most cunning and manipulative characters in the verse."

Okay? Joker's pretty cunning and manipulative himself (might i direct you to the harem ending?), and he has a charisma boost.

"But by that time he would be already dead"

And your logic for this is..? I mean, Joker's gun shouldn't work at all since Discord doesn't know what a gun is, and Joker's absolutely not an idiot, nor is he Kratos. He would notice immediately that his knife was doing nothing within the first few swings and stop attacking accordingly. Discord gets angry, is about to kill Joker, but Joker sweet talks him down (again, shadows taking party members hostage and threatening to actually kill them) and convinces him to play with his "prey" a little longer, to which Discord agrees because, again, he has a god complex and enjoys playing with opponents he has an "out" against, such as Joker. Even in the matches where Discord does kill Joker via power-null and just killing him in any number of ways, I consider them to be in the minority just because of Joker's charisma boost, intelligence edge (probably), and Discord's confirmed weakness; his ego.
 
Not cancels the fact that it is still not in character to use charisma in battle.

My point is that both of these instances are very specific.

Jokers gun would work, since Discord knows what a gun is (Lightbuster said it above), but the effects won't.

It just that Discord can do so much more, while Ren would try to use his knife, his gun, his items, etc.
 
Okay, then Joker uses a Straw Doll/Ouija Board and insta-kills him that way. Discord has no resistance to death manip, so it shouldn't matter what strength the item is. Only difference is that Ouija Board is AoE.

One shot from the gun (i wasn't able to find anything canon regarding MLP and guns on google or youtube, so Lightbuster might have been sarcastic. plus, discord's illogical, so we have no reason to assume he would even feel a gunshot/knife, much less get damaged by it), 1, maybe 2 hits with the knife, then Joker insta-kills. I mean, he DOES know he has to kill, right?

Regarding Discord and getting angry at Joker for attacking him, like I said, he probably wouldn't even feel it, and what he did feel would probably be a tickle more or less.

Regarding instant death and Discord's illogical nature, conventional weapons may not be able to harm him, but magic can (spell turned him to stone). And since Discord has absolutely no resistance to death manipulation, I see no reason to assume he would survive. Discord could disable/EE the ouija board, but that involves knowing what it is and what it does, neither of which apply to Discord, therefore he can't turn off the logic surrounding it. Discord can't EE Joker because Joker resists it (stood in qliphoth shibuya for a period of time before being erased by the people's cognition, and then survived and woke up in the velvet room).
 
This is endgame Joker, not Satanael Joker. Therefore, Joker doesn't have sinful shell in this key. Otherwise, you are correct.
 
>Ouja Board

No need, but unless it's a thought it gets nulled, NEXT

>Guns

Joker's gun is a low 2-C gun with an AP way higher than Dissy, if he gets hit he gets atomized. And Discord wouldn't be too stupid to let a gu hit him without trying to do something. If he tries to shoot, Discord haxes it

Also, he doesn't need to know what it is before he nulls it, heck, the 1st thing he does is try to remove equipment due to his illogical and crazy nature.
 
Joker's punch can damage a low 2-C comparable, if not stronger than, Joker with Satanael. Unless "Dissy" removes Joker's arms (again, Joker resists EE, so I find that unlikely) Joker Saitama's him. If he does remove Joker's arms somehow, Joker still has his legs, which should be about as strong as his arms, therefore he should be able to literally curbstomp Discord if he gets close enough. There's also charisma, but I'm sick of arguing about that and would rather avoid it if at all possible.

Edit: Just remembered physical attacks aren't valid wincons.
 
MrKerf said:
Not cancels the fact that it is still not in character to use charisma in battle.
My point is that both of these instances are very specific.

Jokers gun would work, since Discord knows what a gun is (Lightbuster said it above), but the effects won't.

It just that Discord can do so much more, while Ren would try to use his knife, his gun, his items, etc.
Click to expand...
1st You left out elemental spell with his third eye he can see which spells would Discord is WEAK!! to.

2nd You think Discord would recongize a semi-automatic pistol? Beats my fan fictio

3rd He use Charisma to end fights sure, Tirek is not know for being manipulative he only ever does it once. The fact he didn't have anywhere near the charisma levels Joker has kind of shows how easy it is to control Discord. on the mean while Joker has used it to convivce Sae Niijima to join his cause while outside the metaverse while beate. While specific that seems like the perfect parallel to this fight.

Also how much more can Discord do that Joker doesn't resist. I want you check Cause this guy resist a lot why do you think we only mention BFR and Mutation.
 
Multipize said:
Also how much more can Discord do that Joker doesn't resist. I want you check Cause this guy resist a lot why do you think we only mention BFR and Mutation.
Click to expand...
If I'm not mistaken, Discord's method of BFR is teleportation, which is Spatial Manip, which Joker resists.

Do we even know if Discord utilizes BFR/Transmutation in-character for combat scenarios? If he doesn't, I believe we use his most commonly used powers, which should be his Logic Manip, which Joker should have a wincon against via charisma.

Also, yes, Joker convinced Sae to join his cause while cut off from most of his powers within the span of a few hours. Therefore, WITH his powers (that shouldn't be nulled by power null because that isn't how Discord's power null works. it's counterspelling, which has 0 effect on a person's ability to speak normally), he should be able to do even more. Sure, it's not Joker's first choice, but is power null Discord's first choice? I see nothing that suggests that, so for now, I see no reason to assume that.
 
First, can people stop saying his guns wouldn't work.

It's like every day you guys forget the whole conversation and go back to saying stuff that was disproven days ago.

Now, Discord could probably logic it out of existence or whatever, but him being hit by gun attacks is absolutely a wincon.

His illogical existence is irrelevent when it comes to him taking gunshots or ailments. So please move past that and argue something else.
 
YungManzi said:
First, can people stop saying his guns wouldn't work.
It's like every day you guys forget the whole conversation and go back to saying stuff that was disproven days ago.

Now, Discord could probably logic it out of existence or whatever, but him being hit by gun attacks is absolutely a wincon.

His illogical existence is irrelevent when it comes to him taking gunshots or ailments. So please move past that and argue something else.
Click to expand...
We assume the gun won't work based on the rules given. Cannons exist in MLP but no semi-automatic pistols, so we assume it won't work. It was never properly disproved so it makes no sense to just assume we forgot the disscusion. We just don't see your POV on your situation
 
Smashkabab said:
Multipize said:
Also how much more can Discord do that Joker doesn't resist. I want you check Cause this guy resist a lot why do you think we only mention BFR and Mutation.
Click to expand...
If I'm not mistaken, Discord's method of BFR is teleportation, which is Spatial Manip, which Joker resists.
Do we even know if Discord utilizes BFR/Transmutation in-character for combat scenarios? If he doesn't, I believe we use his most commonly used powers, which should be his Logic Manip, which Joker should have a wincon against via charisma.

Also, yes, Joker convinced Sae to join his cause while cut off from most of his powers within the span of a few hours. Therefore, WITH his powers (that shouldn't be nulled by power null because that isn't how Discord's power null works. it's counterspelling, which has 0 effect on a person's ability to speak normally), he should be able to do even more. Sure, it's not Joker's first choice, but is power null Discord's first choice? I see nothing that suggests that, so for now, I see no reason to assume that.
Click to expand...
Joker isn't immune to portals, and he can't fly(canonically). If he gets a portal under him, and boots him from the Meta-verse options are the Nav and Charisma.

Power Null is Discord's first option, because when he battled the mane 6 the first time he makes it so they can't use the elements even if they solved his scavenger hunt. It doesn't work because Personas are abstract type 1 which Discord has never been shown to be able to touch.
 
Lightbuster30 said:
Wait a second, I just found this: Abstract Existence (Type 1. A Persona's true form is the abstract portions of their user's psyche, and their physical forms are mere projections of it).
That's their abstract existence? Being the abstract portions of the mind? Oh hell no, his abstract existence ain't saving him here then. The laws of logic are more abstract than anything the mind will ever be.
Click to expand...
Argument already debunked
 
Argument already debunked
That's the definition of an NLF; extrapolating abilities from other abilities because "x is more y than z". I recommend you find a different argument as to why power null works.

For instance, the Joker (Gotham) has a form of "super insanity" that makes things relating to telepathy like restoring sanity difficult. And telepaths like Martian Manhunter have been shown to take physical damage from mental attacks.

However, that doesn't by any means lead us to the conclusion that the Joker would be able to utilize this "Super Instanity" as a defense mechanism against telepaths, because that's ridiculous and has never been shown in canon.

EDIT: Editing additional explaination
 
I'm Blue daba dee daba die said:
Lightbuster30 said:
Wait a second, I just found this: Abstract Existence (Type 1. A Persona's true form is the abstract portions of their user's psyche, and their physical forms are mere projections of it).
That's their abstract existence? Being the abstract portions of the mind? Oh hell no, his abstract existence ain't saving him here then. The laws of logic are more abstract than anything the mind will ever be.
Click to expand...
Argument already debunked
Click to expand...
It's a part of their mind so he nulls their psyche... he can do that?
 
Multipize said:
I'm Blue daba dee daba die said:
Lightbuster30 said:
Wait a second, I just found this: Abstract Existence (Type 1. A Persona's true form is the abstract portions of their user's psyche, and their physical forms are mere projections of it).
That's their abstract existence? Being the abstract portions of the mind? Oh hell no, his abstract existence ain't saving him here then. The laws of logic are more abstract than anything the mind will ever be.
Click to expand...
Argument already debunked
Click to expand...
It's a part of their mind so he nulls their psyche... he can do that?
Click to expand...
That's mind manip, which Discord has never been shown to be capable of.
 
Smashkabab said:
Argument already debunked
Click to expand...
That's the definition of an NLF; extrapolating abilities from other abilities because "x is more y than z". I recommend you find a different argument as to why power null works.

For instance, the Joker (Gotham) has a form of "super insanity" that makes things relating to telepathy like restoring sanity difficult. And telepaths like Martian Manhunter have been shown to take physical damage from mental attacks.

However, that doesn't by any means lead us to the conclusion that Joker would be able to utilize this "Super Instanity" as a defense mechanism against telepaths, because that's ridiculous and has never been shown in canon.

EDIT: Editing additional explaination

He might do that but it wouldn't change the outcome. Funny idea I would like that in a fight.
 
Smashkabab said:
That's mind manip, which Discord has never been shown to be capable of.
Click to expand...
You mean just that form of Mind Manipulation, right? Because Discord has shown different examples of mind manip countless times.
 
EMagoIorSouI said:
Smashkabab said:
That's mind manip, which Discord has never been shown to be capable of.
Click to expand...
You mean just that form of Mind Manipulation, right? Because Discord has shown different examples of mind manip countless times.
Click to expand...
I guess I was wrong, I apologize. It's even on his profile, so I don't know what I was thinking. Can Discord utilize this power to delete vital parts of a person's psyche? Because that's what connects a Persona User to their Persona. That's why memory manip disables Personas until it is resolved.
 
[quote="EMagoIorSouI said:
Smashkabab"].
Click to expand...
Unsure. He did once mind manip the Mane Six so they'd represent the opposite of their elements. Make Applejack a liar, make Rarity selfish, make Fluttershy rude, ETC. There's also this.[/quote]
If that were so, ailments like fear should affect Personas at well, since they affect your mind and personality. Except they don't. All it does is make you unlikely to be able to use your abilities, use items, attack, etc. And, of course, make you scared and likely to flee.
 
Smashkabab said:
Argument already debunked
Click to expand...
That's the definition of an NLF; extrapolating abilities from other abilities because "x is more y than z". I recommend you find a different argument as to why power null works.
For instance, the Joker (Gotham) has a form of "super insanity" that makes things relating to telepathy like restoring sanity difficult. And telepaths like Martian Manhunter have been shown to take physical damage from mental attacks.

However, that doesn't by any means lead us to the conclusion that the Joker would be able to utilize this "Super Instanity" as a defense mechanism against telepaths, because that's ridiculous and has never been shown in canon.

EDIT: Editing additional explaination

I think you missed the point I was making. The point is that Discord is more than capable of interacting with Abstract forces, and that being a physical representation of someone's immaterial mind isn't good enough to be compeltely immune to whatever Discord throws at him in the same manner as typial abstracts.
 
Argument already debunked That's the definition of an NLF; extrapolating abilities from other abilities because "x is more y than z". I recommend you find a different argument as to why power null works.
For instance, the Joker (Gotham) has a form of "super insanity" that makes things relating to telepathy like restoring sanity difficult. And telepaths like Martian Manhunter have been shown to take physical damage from mental attacks.

However, that doesn't by any means lead us to the conclusion that the Joker would be able to utilize this "Super Instanity" as a defense mechanism against telepaths, because that's ridiculous and has never been shown in canon.

EDIT: Editing additional explaination

I think you missed the point I was making. The point is that Discord is more than capable of interacting with Abstract forces, and that being a physical representation of someone's immaterial mind isn't good enough to be compeltely immune to whatever Discord throws at him in the same manner as typial abstracts.

Thanks for clearing that up so your still incon?
 
All we need is one more vote and we can put this thread to rest. It's not gonna be added because of the forum move, but that's alright.

Just means we can do it again with Scramble feats/anti-feats.
 
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