Dimentio's Tiering Makes No Sense

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah that's not gonna fly. Scaling limited to their individual games or series has been rejected plenty of times.

As for Bleck, I don't know. I don't recall what the argument was for it being Low 2-C in the first place.

Anyways, who else agrees with the OP? I need confirmation of your agreement. I don't wanna assume

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I already found another possible low 2-C durability feat for Paper Mario which I will bring up in another CRT, so I disagree with this. If I'm not allowed to disagree without also providing evidence, then ignore my vote

And if this goes through, he would still be 4-A physically, Low 2-C with the Void's summoning right?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Dimentio would only be 4-A. Low 2-C is fully unsupported and it's even stated in-game that the DP possibly amplifies dark magic. Writing it (big if by the way) means nothing if he doesn't have it currently in his possession to amp his magic. And he never scaled to the feats Bleck performed to begin with, so there's no reason for Low 2-C. Dimentio only gets the Void as Super Dimentio.

If you were talking about Bleck he stays at whatever tier is appropriate for his feats, whether that's Tier 3 or Low 2-C is up for discussion.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Wait, Dimentio doesn't actually use the Void in his base? That's strange. So we can now conclude the thread it seems

 

[Foxthefox1000]

So that's 7 agreements including one staff member so far.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, I'd appreciate it if the term "Headcanon" was stopped being over used. Because Headcanon implies that it's 100% fanfiction. And NPC statement really can't be called headcanon; arguments can be made about it being "Unreliable speculation" which I agree. But it's not headcanon if there exists in game statements that mention things.

I kind of do agree that Dimentio being the one who wrote the Dark Prognosticus sound far too speculative, or better yet him being the one who created the Chaos Heart. Which those sound like double edge swords. Though he definitely has a lot more knowledge and is clearly hiding things, but I suppose those details being removed from his AP section is fine. And Carson isn't quite someone who's been around, though he may have read old history books at best. But he's not like Merlon who is an ancient sage with vast knowledge.

However, as for the Low 2-C stuff, it comes from Bleck's durability feat. We are given details about him destroying his own dimension the instant he touched the Dark Prognosticus. And as for why Dimentio was implied to scale was due to him likely being in the same universe when it happened. He was talking to Bleck asking him to join beforehand which he rejected, but then he let him join after the incident. But Bleck has like no feats or anti-feats outside of this event and honestly it would just be something that scales to durability, and not so much AP.

As for why it's Low 2-C as opposed to 3-A or High 3-A, actually it's extremely consistent in secondary canon sources that the Void destroys time and space, not just all matter. It does have explosion like properties as when it destroyed Sammer Kingdom/World 6, but it doesn't contradict the statement. Also, it's not a standard assumption to assume all those alternate dimensions are part of the same quilted multiverse. The individual dimensions are Low 2-C structured via being parallel to Daiuchu/World 4.

And I don't mind if it might be seen as an outlier for base Dimentio; however, it should be noted that Dimentio was pretending to be a humble servant of Bleck the entire time. So he might have been faking his defeat and acting like he was clueless when he really wasn't. Also, weren't their discussions about his dimensional explosion not being existence erasure? Since it doesn't seem to destroy their souls and simply sends them to the Afterlife? And it's not BFR either since Luigi actually survives a bigger version in his fight against Dimentio. Plus, him being the surprise true main villain was actually something he plotted since the beginning. When he initially killed everyone, he actually helped them get the last Pure Heart. And all of those "Lost fights" are actually things Dimentio planned himself, implying he could have been holding back. His final plan was that he thought the Pure Hearts could only be used once and that once used, they'd not have utility against Super Dimentio. But he overlooked where the actual power of the Pure Hearts came from, which was simply the power of love.

But either way, the Low 2-C stuff really should only apply to durability at best. Bleck should just be unknown at base otherwise, he used hax and BFR on everyone else but has his own durability feat. Dimentio has likely 2 of those durability feats; Sammer Kingdom and Bleck's World, but the latter is likely speculation. And it's debatable whether or not Mario's attacks actually hurt Dimentio.

I'm neutral on Dimentio's durability, but think his AP should just be the same as Mario. And Bleck I think should keep his durability, but his other stats could be downgraded to just Unknown.

 

[Eficiente]

However, as for the Low 2-C stuff, it comes from Bleck's durability feat. We are given details about him destroying his own dimension the instant he touched the Dark Prognosticus.

Is this the evidence or am I missing something? Assuming it's just it then if he's the one making the erasure then he has no reason to take it. You also imply it to be instant, which could use better evidence on the profile, but even with this being an explosion coming out of the book that's Low 2-C that wouldn't even be a Universe level+ durability for one man to take.

And as for why Dimentio was implied to scale was due to him likely being in the same universe when it happened. He was talking to Bleck asking him to join beforehand which he rejected, but then he let him join after the incident.

That's not something that makes sense. No possible way the destruction of the universe happened would make this 2 guys taking it have Universe level+ durability. This people occupy a very, very limited amount of space and very, very limited points in time, what they would be taking from a timeline being destroyed is far, far smaller than the Low 2-C feat that is destroying all the space and all the points of time. If every human in history were to be given extra durability to survive the destruction of the timeline, we wouldn't need to turn that much destruction into the exact amount of durability and give each human Universe level+ durability.

Dimentio could have also been in some other dimension by chance, knowing what was going to happen, or simply reacting to it as it happened.

As for why it's Low 2-C as opposed to 3-A or High 3-A, actually it's extremely consistent in secondary canon sources that the Void destroys time and space, not just all matter. It does have explosion like properties as when it destroyed Sammer Kingdom/World 6, but it doesn't contradict the statement.

I would like to see an album of evidence about this on Imgur, the way I would do it would include what happened Sammer Kingdom while saying "Granted, [x] happened, which is not intuitive of destroying space and all points in time". Without evidence then as far as I know, maybe the Void can do that, which is not the same as it always doing so, maybe that's an idea Bleck got and wanted to do to all worlds after what he already did to his world.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

It's never explicitly shown to us
Dimentio occupied the same universe as Bleck. I guess we're assuming that because they're both from the Tribe it was the same universe? But there were a ton of migrations and Dimentio can easily cross worlds and so could The Ancients. It's likely he simply escaped in time or maybe wasn't even occupying that world at the time. No one knows because it's all vague.

I don't agree with Dimentio getting the durability.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I would like to see an album of evidence about this on Imgur, the way I would do it would include what happened Sammer Kingdom while saying "Granted, [x] happened, which is not intuitive of destroying space and all points in time"

Right here

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Is this like a prima guide?

 

[Idk556570]

it is the prima guide for spm

Is this like a prima guide?

 

[Chariot190]

Just to confirm, we AREN'T ******* with Super Dimentio.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

No, not yet anyways. That could be another thread though.

Also, I don't know about using Prima Guides. Didn't we basically say in other threads not to use guides?

Also, the Japanese official site, the game itself, and the instruction booklet I believe all say nothing about time and space in Japanese. Space, yes, but time I've yet to find any supporting evidence for.

 

[Idk556570]

if the prima guide doesn't contradict the Japanese version of the game and other official sources it should be fine

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I literally just said it seems to conflict with other statements. Japanese making no mention of it is a big red flag.

 

[Idk556570]

can i see the scans?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

To clarify by "Japanese guides" I mean like the prima guide one

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Oh wait I didn't get the official site in there woops. I can easily find it again though

 

[Eficiente]

Right here

That's great, we can use that as evidence for profiles. Please change the name of the title to the guide's name and the page.

Still, is there records of Blumiere's world having existed in the past? Because there is this quote where he says "Count Bleck does not care about any world! They are all meaningless. Better that I destroy them! Better yet, I shall make it as if they never existed at all!", which could imply that the stuff that happened in his world still exists in the past and his end goal is to erase that too/that he didn't erase the past in his world then but now when wanting to destroy all worlds he aims to destroy the past too.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

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I think this does the job of showing the story according to the website. It's basically it's own imgur album. But note the kanji used. Never does it say "time" anywhere and again only uses "sekai" when talking about what's being destroyed/ended.

 

[Idk556570]

That's great, we can use that as evidence for profiles. Please change the name of the title to the guide's name and the page.

Still, is there records of Blumiere's world having existed in the past? Because there is this quote where he says "Count Bleck does not care about any world! They are all meaningless. Better that I destroy them! Better yet, I shall make it as if they never existed at all!", which could imply that the stuff that happened in his world still exists in the past and his end goal is to erase that too/that he didn't erase the past in his world then but now when wanting to destroy all worlds he aims to destroy the past too.

I don't think that makes sense saying "I shall make it as if they never existed at all!" could mean count Bleck will make sure the worlds can't be restored or he could just be over dramatic

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I literally just said it seems to conflict with other statements. Japanese making no mention of it is a big red flag.

English version doesn't contradict it, the guidebook you sent in Japanese wasn't a Prima Guide

 

[Idk556570]

English version doesn't contradict it, the guidebook you sent in Japanese wasn't a Prima Guide

Japanese version>English version as those where made first along with the fact the English game doesn't mention the void yeeting space-time also it doesn't matter if the guide is prima or not as long as its officially licensed by Nintendo

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Japanese version>English version as those where made first along with the fact the English game doesn't mention the void yeeting space-time also it doesn't matter if the guide is prima or not as long as its officially licensed by Nintendo

I know, but the Japanese guidebook doesn't contradict it

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Let me also point out the japanese translation for Bleck's "erase this world" statement only refers to the specific country

It literally uses "Kuni" there's no dancing around that. Therefore the feat actually doesn't hold up. Count Bleck should only get an "At least 4-A, likely higher" for stomping Mario in base.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That honestly sounds like a really bad translation; and/or another example of kingdom also referring to world/universe/dimension as opposed to a country within a planet. Or its just another one of those Universe sized kingdoms common in fantasy verses.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Except the word "sekai" was used in the previous lines, saying a similar line to the English of living in a world without his girlfriend

That later sentence uses "Kuni" which literally translates to country, and in the Grand scheme of the world, he's talking about starting with that country.

Also, we act like these worlds aren't connected and that a person literally has traveled between them and gotten souvenirs to bring home. People from other worlds know each other too. Merlee comes to Flipside despite being in World 2, and we see The Overthere is in the sky on Earth clear as day. World 4 is just Outer Space, literally they refer to it as "the universe" in the flavor texts that support it. But the shopkeeper NPC is able to get up there and constantly talks about his shop being in different locations. Are we to assume all NPCs have the ability to cross dimensions which "are entire universes" without those Dimensional Doors before? Cause they only appear due to the Pure Hearts being placed in a Heart Pillar.

There's no mention of all dimensions being in danger in SPM, only a vague "The World" is ever said as well. The only explicit other dimension was the world where Mario came from which wasn't implied to be in danger at all in the Japanese version.

To assume things as grand as we currently have them due to the English version doesn't seem to be what's explicitly stated in the Japanese version and seems like a desperate excuse to keep the current ratings.

Are the 64 paintings universe-sized kingdoms now too? Because world and country were also used in that game? We need some consistency.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, Merlon and many others have been shown to travel to other dimensions and the like, if an entire tribe of dimension creators exists in lore, why not characters with the ability to travel through dimensions. Flipside and Flopside as worlds have purposes of being worlds that act as gateways between other dimensions too. There's also the fact that items that specifically enable to travel back to Flipside exists.

Also, others have quoted Japanese texts as Jigen aka spacio-temporal dimensions when describing the void but not going to get into that. I think dimension should still mean alternate bodies of spaces.

Yes, I already talked about those other Painting worlds. I never fully considered them universes but never denied either, only that 'Kingdom" doesn't bluntly mean Country sized. Honestly, the dimension in Super Paper Mario are by far the biggest examples of those dimensions being literally alternate dimensions. They can only be traveled through portals and the like, one of them at least is literally called an entire universe and is parallel to all the others and a multitude of its own statements describe it as "Endless". One of them is literally a dimension containing the afterlife that pretty much everyone from every dimension goes to when they "Run out of lives", and the list goes on.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I'll have more to say and provide proof in a thread tailored to it going through a sequential comparison of every statement from the English version that's important for their current tiering and how it differs in Japanese.

But the point is Kuni has never been used to represent universe-sized anything's in Mario so why start assuming such now?

 

[Eficiente]

That honestly sounds like a really bad translation; and/or another example of kingdom also referring to world/universe/dimension as opposed to a country within a planet. Or its just another one of those Universe sized kingdoms common in fantasy verses.

None of this is remotely a likely take to make, just unlikely. "Country" was the target, and so that affected a country, simple as that.

Also, we act like these worlds aren't connected and that a person literally has traveled between them and gotten souvenirs to bring home. People from other worlds know each other too. Merlee comes to Flipside despite being in World 2, and we see The Overthere is in the sky on Earth clear as day. World 4 is just Outer Space, literally they refer to it as "the universe" in the flavor texts that support it. But the shopkeeper NPC is able to get up there and constantly talks about his shop being in different locations. Are we to assume all NPCs have the ability to cross dimensions which "are entire universes" without those Dimensional Doors before? Cause they only appear due to the Pure Hearts being placed in a Heart Pillar.

There's no mention of all dimensions being in danger in SPM, only a vague "The World" is ever said as well. The only explicit other dimension was the world where Mario came from which wasn't implied to be in danger at all in the Japanese version.

To assume things as grand as we currently have them due to the English version doesn't seem to be what's explicitly stated in the Japanese version and seems like a desperate excuse to keep the current ratings.

Neutral, but to add to this the guide linked above does say "To reach the end of the book is to deliver crushing finality on the universe." (Bleck was) "Determined to wreak revenge on the universe and its many dimensions" "Merlon charges Mario to find eight Pure Hearts that allow travel between the dimensions threatened by Bleck's plans. If Mario can amass the Pure Hearts and rescue his friends, maybe the universe stands a chance of surviving Count Bleck.", and that's just one page.

Likewise, it has always been unprofessional the way the feat is portrayed in profiles, we say that the totality of all worlds, timelines and possibilities in the Marioverse would be destroyed, then the text linked says something lesser, which we should have limit ourselves to quote. We're not some announcer of wrestling going over how great a fighter is through redundancy and overhype.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There are plenty of characters who are all the way up to Tier one based on the same type of sentence structure and usage of the word "Universe" as opposed to "Multiverse, Metaverse, Meta-Universe, Omniverse, Hyperverse, Outerverse, ect" so that's not really a good argument to argue against the ratings. Plus the in game still literally says things like "All Existence". That, and the dimensions are clearly different bodies of space; combined with some being universe structures. World 4 outright states it's "Not" the same Universe/Outer Space as the one surrounding the Mushroom Kingdom.

I won't be using Dimension D as an AP feat whatsoever since the size is implied to be small, but it legit exists outside the multiverse/universe. The destruction of Sammer Kingdom also clearly effected the skies as well as the planet/kingdom too. Even Matt and Ryukama agreed the overall structure of the multiverse and the Void's end result is still 2-B regardless of the Dream Depot.

 

[Eficiente]

I can clearly see why all of that would be wrong.

There are plenty of characters who are all the way up to Tier one based on the same type of sentence structure and usage of the word "Universe" as opposed to "Multiverse, Metaverse, Meta-Universe, Omniverse, Hyperverse, Outerverse, ect" so that's not really a good argument to argue against the ratings.

No, this would not be a good argument to make. Those other characters aren't higher than universal because they use the word Universe, but (I would hope) they have other context that makes that be the case. The latter gives the Tier, not based on the same type of sentence structure and usage of the word "Universe" as you say. Their context is their own and does not need to be brought up here.

Plus the in game still literally says things like "All Existence". That,

I predict the starting caps are your extra touch, which hypes it out. All existence is not synonymous with the multiverse, the higher the take the less likely, here we have proof of it being the dimensions the universe is made of and all time, but not the larger multiverse.

and the dimensions are clearly different bodies of space; combined with some being universe structures. World 4 outright states it's "Not" the same Universe/Outer Space as the one surrounding the Mushroom Kingdom.

The destruction of Sammer Kingdom also clearly effected the skies as well as the planet/kingdom too.

A universe can have within it as many universe-sized dimensions as it wants. They're different spaces, yes.

I won't be using Dimension D as an AP feat whatsoever since the size is implied to be small, but it legit exists outside the multiverse/universe.

Well, Dimentio won't need to be king of that.

Even Matt and Ryukama agreed the overall structure of the multiverse and the Void's end result is still 2-B regardless of the Dream Depot.

We do kinda tackle Mario things at a really slow pace, and this is new evidence. It's not like "they had an opinion, everything remained the same, and so that would still stand", a new idea was proposed, info goes in favor of it and things to be said against it are underwhelming.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

See the thing is where's the proof? You say these things but I don't see links. I specifically showed every statement I've used so far. Where has "all totality" been said so I can confirm if such is the case in Japanese? That would probably be very helpful.

I literally have a copy of the script (main story) and it isn't said at all there.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Bump cause this is kind of a noteworthy downgrade, especially now that Bleck might not have any universal feat to scale to.

 

[Seol404]

I've always had a problem with the possibly 2-C rating for maybe potential creating the Dark Prognosticus because it's a made up headcanon that is never confirmed by the game so it seems a bit silly to have listed as a feat at all. I agree with the first part as well, his base should simply scale relatively close to the main cast.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Okay, that's 8 agreements, 2 from staff included

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Is it reasonable to add it now? I'd say the most we need is 1 more staff or 2 other people

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I think we'd probably need more, as this is a somewhat controversial topic and has had some debate.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Bump. More input would be greatly appreciated

 

[Foxthefox1000]

We're really close to being able to add this, we just need some more input.