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Dimentio's Tiering Makes No Sense

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I agree that Bleck only destroyed his country and not his universe so he should be 4-A via being way more powerful then the main cast. Also when changing dimentio's profile can someone change this
Massively FTL+ (As one of the strongest beings in the Marioverse, he should be comparable to Dreamy Bowser)
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why should super Dimentio scale to dreamy bowser that form of bowser didn't even exist at the time of SPM's release it should just say "same as base" or "comparable to users of the Pure Hearts" also
Outpaced Mario and the gang with complete ease
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this links to Paper Mario's page instead of Mario's so that needs to changed
 
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Yeah scaling to Dreamy Bowser seems weird. We should maybe find some feats within SPM Super Dimentio can scale to. The Void eventually consuming the universe over time, which has statements of being endless, could warrant Super Dimentio being given potential infinite speed maybe.
 
100% agree with Dimentio getting downgraded to 4-A in base. If the “world” that Count Bleck destroyed after obtaining the Dark Prognisticus is only a country and the translation if correct than I agree with him getting downgraded as well.

The void needs to be looked at more as it’s stated to VERY powerful and that might help us get a higher rating if anything.
 
Where does it say "only a country"? If it says country, it doesnt limit it to just country level since its also stated to erase the world
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
Where does it say "only a country"? If it says country, it doesnt limit it to just country level since its also stated to erase the world
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We're talking about Bleck's feat.

The Void will consume the world, but Bleck specifically states he'll start with "the country" in Japanese. So Bleck would get downgraded and we already agreed on Dimentio
 
Eficiente said:
No, this would not be a good argument to make. Those other characters aren't higher than universal because they use the word Universe, but (I would hope) they have other context that makes that be the case. The latter gives the Tier, not based on the same type of sentence structure and usage of the word "Universe" as you say. Their context is their own and does not need to be brought up here.
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This does not address my point. Look up the word "Universe" in a Japanese dictionary, and you can get 5 different definitions. One of them being "Everything that exists", so it is within the realm of possibility and thus just because he said "Universe" as opposed to "Multiverse" does not warrant any arguments against 2-B. But rather than knit picking the "Destroy the entire Universe" statement. Let's focus on the nature of the individual dimensions. If those individual dimensions are Low 2-C sized individually, the feat is 2-B since we already see more than one of them get destroyed reaching 2-C. And there are still countless of them in lore making it all 2-B territory.
Eficiente said:
A universe can have within it as many universe-sized dimensions as it wants. They're different spaces, yes.
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This can be case for dream worlds/dimensions. And is especially a case for things like 'Afterlifes" or if pocket dimensions are specifically called pocket dimensions. But literal alternate realities and/or parallel universes/dimensions generally have different flows of time. As is the case of World 4 Daiuchu (Literally meaning "the Universe"). And other dimensions are legit parallel.
Eficiente said:
a new idea was proposed, info goes in favor of it and things to be said against it are underwhelming.
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Nothing actually appears to be "New" per say. Other users have been knit picking the same words and using the same dictionary definitions or claiming they "Have the entire transcript of the Japanese version" all the way back in 2016.

Also, FYI. Using Google translate, Word Hippo, asking some random person who happens to know Japanese to an extent that "Kuni means country" is nice. But like the definition of Universe, the word Kuni also has multiple definitions when you actually look it up in a Japanese dictionary. It can also mean kingdom, and it can also mean tribe/clan. Which yes, the Tribe of Darkness is a clan and Bleck instantly destroys his own homeworld. But that's what the void does it devourers dimensions/universes whole. Time stamp shows a bit of a sky. But in less than a minute, it's all gone. And another minute or 2 after that, it's nothing but an empty void. It nuked not just an entire country but an entire dimension. Also, keep in mind there exists multiple "Interdimensional" adjectives to describe the Void as well as other places like Flipside and Flopside. Which means it devourers more than 3 spatial dimensions. And with time included, this is a 5th dimension. So yes, it not only nuked the alleged "Country/Kingdom/Clan" that Bleck came from, but it would have to have finished devouring the rest of the dimension before it could move on to other dimensions.

But we could use input from other staff. @GyroNutz @Starter_Pack @Dino_Ranger_Black do you have other thoughts?
 
I'm sorry but where is the proof that these are other dimensions in Japanese? They're only called other worlds, but again, Chapter 4 is literally called "The Universe", "crossing the universe", etc. An NPC can be seen in Sammer Kingdom that you can talk to in Flipside and he's "explored various lands" with relics from each of them in his house which are implied to be the other worlds. We know "world" and "land" are VERY intertwined in Mario. In fact, the distinction in Japanese of "the world" being at stake of destruction instead of worlds plural and the fact that the other worlds you visit are just referred to as shit like "this world" by Tippi seems to imply the idea that they are just lands or sections of the planet/universe and the actual full extent of the Void is consuming the Universe when saying "The world will be destroyed".

And again, these statements you use to defend the tier are different in Japanese. "World" is mostly used and dimension is rarely used, only being used for Flipside (Which is only a city between dimensions) and Mario's World (which was not stated to be in danger as no statement of all worlds and dimensions exists in Japanese). If all dimensions were truly at peril like the English says (not supported in Japanese), then why are Dimentio's dimension and Bleck's little personal altar place seemingly lacking a Void? If Dimentio could truly "create his own world" as Super Dimentio and he could create this dimension in base, then what's the need for Super Dimentio? He could just isolate himself in his own dimension of his own creation. Dimentio's dimension seems to me like some pocket reality. It doesn't appear big at all. So let's say there are other dimensions: What proves they're all the same size knowing this? I'm curious where this "all world/dimensions are parallel" statement is. Unless you're too afraid to provide lest I disprove that claim with the Japanese too.

Also, you do realize the same arguments you're making to support this have been used to try and prove Low 2-C Power Stars and other feats to support Tier 2 base cast and in those very threads you ended up acquiescing and dismissing these other translations for the kanji. What's the difference here that makes this game more likely to refer to the other definitions?
 
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If the parallel worlds thing comes from Nolrem then I'll just say the statement is vague and Flipside/Flopside are literally in a space between dimensions and is just a city. Yes, other parallel universes do exist in other Mario games, but we can't prove that:

1.) These worlds are other dimensions in the japanese text.

2.) That these dimensions are ALL the same size.

3.) That the prospect of EVERY dimension was in danger with the japanese text.

And if it comes from Red, that's even worse, as he implies the 3rd dimension is a parallel world/universe, which would make the prospect of world/dimensions refer to spatial dimensions which is obviously not gonna be used as legit evidence.
 
Idk556570 said:
wait is 2-B stuff now being debated?
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Sort of. I'm only saying that a lot of these statements aren't there in japanese and the only argument against them are "well they have multiple definitions and interpretations" which was an argument that was disagreed with in other threads.
 
I'll touch on 2-B in another thread if we ever get there. But currently I'm not trying to argue against 2-B, just that the arguments used to support Bleck's feat rely on interpretation using other meanings of the kanji which was disagreed with before and that the actual text in japanese doesn't have these statements.

The intention is country. The intention of Chapter 4 is to talk of the universe as a whole, yes. But the fact these exist at separate parts of the game and have not displayed interchangeability elsewhere leads me to believe Bleck's feat is worth a downgrade and it really means what it says.
 
They don't need to all come from original Japanese sources. Besides, one of the reasons people rejected some Painting World statements or the Mario Galaxy stuff is due to favoring English localizations. Which using English to downgrade those while using Japanese to downgrade SPM sounds like a very downgrade for the sake of downgrade practice; there should be some consistency. Neither downgrade for the sake of downgrade or upgrade for the sake of upgrade should be a valued practice, but there should definitely be some consistency for whether we value secondary canon sources or Japanese verses English scans.

What "Relics that a Sammer Kingdom NPC" has? More over, what proves Sammer Kingdom takes place in the same planet/Universe as the Mushroom Kingdom? That contradicts the fact that Would 4 is a different Outer Space from the one Mushroom Kingdom or Mario Galaxy takes place in. The 7 cards at the and based on the TTYD partners? That's more so fan service rather than lore meant to be taken literally. Also, all 7 doorways are literally next to each other as parallel worlds.

Again rough translations maybe. But I have seen other people attempt to translate the same Kanji words that get different from yours. Some say that things like "Interdimensional" are consistent and uses "Jigen" as opposed to "Shunpo". Some people used translations to attempt Tier 1 stuff too, so with all these contradictions in mind. It is for that reason that some people actually favor using English localized sources. But Kepekley, while he has been controversial as of late, one of the few things he is clearly correct about is the complaints against using secondary canon guidebooks from Prima and the like. Prima is actually talking with the Japanese developers themselves and also happens to have better translators on their team than various video game companies such as Nintendo, Sega, or Square Enix oddly enough. It also does specifically say "All the dimensions" are in danger in the Prima Guide too. Which is also consistent with World 4 having a Void.

Dimension D isn't described as parallel to any other dimension and simply exists outside the multiverse and outside the void. And it's Dimentio's own dimension, so of course it's safe from the Void. Also, Super Dimentio simply has a lot more control over the void. He can withstand the destruction of the multiverse and recreate it in his own image; as that's his very motive. The Pure Hearts also had the power to instantly restore all those worlds/dimensions devored by the Void during the final battle.

Painting Worlds are off topic that I have been more neutral about. It's others who complained about it and not me. But they lack some other contexts the SPM has. They dimensions allegedly created by Bowser as opposed to ones that already existed. And if they already existed, that actually gives more context to them more likely to them being actual universes even if it also doubles as a lack of AP feats. But it would still be more evidence of the size of Mario's cosmology. Furthermore, there is no individual painting world literally called "The Universe" unlike World 4 of SPM.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
There's no mention of all dimensions being in danger in SPM, only a vague "The World" is ever said as well. The only explicit other dimension was the world where Mario came from which wasn't implied to be in danger at all in the Japanese version.
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Iirc the japanese version also says that all dimensions will be destroyed in the game's very beginning.
 
Except you keep claiming these things without proof. The universe has nothing stating it's a different dimension. If you're relying on the "Dimensional Doors" then look at the Japanese website for Mario Galaxy 2 having labeled the portals as "dimensional doors" that "take you to new worlds". This is EXACTLY the same as SPM, but we don't consider the Galaxy example as being proof of other dimensions.

And don't twist my words, he's literally stated to be a traveler. We SEE him in Sammer's Kingdom getting his ass beat and running off mad. The doors fade away when you enter them so he couldn't have used the door to get back either. He's also not erased with the rest of the world as he's still in Flipside. If this was another universe/dimension, then how do you propose he made it back to Flipside? Like I said, are we gonna assume all NPCs are capable of dimensional travel for no reason?

Also, you've got it wrong. Japanese was always used to downgrade Mario in past threads. English localizations have only come up because of the inconsistency with OTHER translations and in-game statements taking priority. In fact, the main reason why Grand Stars are 3-C is because the Japanese version of Mario Galaxy only refers to a singular galaxy the adventure takes place in (allegedly; despite that not making sense) and it's corroborated with the English which says he'll create a galaxy and only a galaxy.
 
Wait a sec. Wouldn't beating Dimentio just be an outlier for the heroes?
Even though it actually shouldn't
I don't see why downgrade Dimentio for this
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
Wait a sec. Wouldn't beating Dimentio just be an outlier for the heroes?
Even though it actually shouldn't
I don't see why downgrade Dimentio for this
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Dimentio doesn't scale to anything remotely above the cast and there's enough proof in-game to support him not being massively superior.
 
I don't need to constantly repeat the same scans that have been provided in a multitude of previous threads and/or are brought up by others. They're described as gateways to alternate dimensions in the intro by Merlon. It's really hard to miss.

For all we know, it could just mean Sammer Kingdom has a lot of different kingdoms within the same space that otherwise resembles items and locations from those other "Worlds/dimensions" it is not an argument or evidence that Sammer Kingdom is located in the same body of space as all those other Worlds. There's also the fact that World 7 also happens to be an interdimensional afterlife. I know I said afterlives aren't always different timelines and usually aren't but there exist cases where they are. I doubt Mario's version of Heaven and Hell are physically locations on the Mushroom Kingdom/Earth, but it's starting to sound like that's what's being argued.

No, people used both. There are Japanese scans claiming Bowser creates his own Universe when the American version just says he'll create a galaxy. Also, it was Dino Ranger Black; aka the lead Mario expert who said we should stick to English localizations from now on, but now there have been turns of events against that yes. But even so, we're not just going to ignore and pretend English statements don't exist right off the bat.

Edit: Going to be playing some games with friends. Won't respond within the next few hours.
 
Also, no, they're not described as gateways to other dimensions at all.

He just calls them dimensional doors. Even in the English he says, "Look! A door has appeared! This "dimensional door" was made to lead the hero to another Pure Heart. Yes, somewhere beyond this door lies one of the seven other Pure Hearts... ...Tippi. You must use your power to help Mario find this Pure Heart and return here."

Again, if "dimensional door" is the only evidence and proof then Galaxy 2 has you travel to other dimensions too.
 
There is no explicit proof these other places are separate space-times and more contextual (multiple NPCs that traveled to the locations in the game and without the doors) and visual evidence (getting launched into space and seeing the planet in World 7-3) that these other "worlds" are just places in the universe.

Trying to say otherwise relies on pure speculation as to what the kanji can possibly be interpreted as other than their main definition. If we are now allowing English and Prima guides then the verse has to be put through yet another revision to get it back to how it was rated before.

The real kicker is that several enemies reappear in like, every world in the game and that there are multiple mentions towards the 1500 years Pixls and Guardians of the Pure Hearts have had to wait in each of these places, meaning time works the same throughout all of them and they aren't different
 
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It's not an outlier at all because there is no feat. Dimentio isn't Tier 2. He just scales to the cast.

Also, I wanna bring up something Carson states even in English:
"So Flipside's convenient, created by Ancients in a space between dimensions. That means you can open up portals to all the other worlds from there. But on the other hand, it's strangely susceptible to influences from other worlds..."

This refers to the dimensional doors. They are just portals. Just like the ones in Mario Galaxy labeled dimensional doors. And again, "worlds" doesn't mean much. They literally already used "dimensions" why not simply use it again. But this is the English. Still trying to find the Japanese version.

I also found the Japanese text for the ancients and Pixls "creating" worlds. In short, there seems to be nothing said about them using Pixls to create worlds

There is text that says the towers draw upon "dimensional energy" in order to open up portals and paths to other worlds and beam them to them, but this can easily be just referring to 4D travel like a warp. So again, I'm not seeing any explicit proof.

In the text about the 100 Floor Trials one of them even says that the creatures in those dungeons were gathered up from all over the world, and there's many creatures from the various places you visit in-game within them.

There's TOO much supporting this being just one big universe.
 
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Anyways, it seems there's a majority in agreement with Dimentio being downgraded which was the main purpose of this thread. I'd prefer maybe discussing Bleck's feat in another thread if that's okay.

Let's just focus on Dimentio and get this over with since most seem to agree with that.
 
Wait how the hell doesn't Dimentio have statistics amplification, I think you guys know what I'm talking about

Also, it seems like there are enough agreements
 
Seems fine since the english sources are getting whitewashed to secondary canon. I'll be tossing in my agreement in the jar here.
 
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