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Dimensional tiering in vs battles

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SSJRyu1

SSJRyu1

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So, I decided I would like to do a video on the positive and negative factors of using dimensional tiering in vs debates on my YT channel in the near future. The reason being is that it has become a staple of some debate circles, while others refuse to accept it for whatever reason. I would like to hear from the other users of vsbw what their opinions are on using the system, and what they think is accurate, inaccurate, positive and negative about using it. If I could get some input from staff especially since they organized and know the tiering system well, that would be great. Also if there are recommendations of other sources that I should try to get input from I would certainly look into those to.
 
I think that the diemsnional tiering works. The way I see dimensions (and I think is similar to the way its seen in more scientific communities), is in the same way we 3-D beings project 2-D shadows, higher dimensional worlds project lower dimensional worlds. So 4-D world of length, width, depth and time projects a 3-D world of width, length, and depth. And a 5-D world of timelines projects a 4-D world of time, and so on. So if we assume that each lower dimension is a projection of a higher dimension, a lower dimensional being able to harm a higher dimensional being makes about as much sense as your shadow being able to harm you.

Of course, a lot of things in fiction don't make sense, so I shall continue to create characters with hax that affect higher dimensional beings on the FC/OC wiki.

: D
 
I don't think dimensional tiering gives a good picture of comicbook characters inside their own verse since their powers change in every title, and writers have their own preference for certian heroes. The continuity discrepancy and countless upon countless PIS makes it very hard to find consistency. However that's why the rule for marvel and DC powerscaling exist. I personally would read each comic book title rather follow wiki for stats since stats for comicbook characters are so variable across titles, and wiki is a gross generalization.

For manga, eroge and light novels the format makes sense since there's much less issue with continuity.
 
^ This doesn't have anything to do with the dimensional tiering itself though, no? Using any other system would lead to the same amount of inconsistencies, even if you use Marvel's own "Megaverse" and "Omniverse" terms like the OBD do.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
^ This doesn't have anything to do with the dimensional tiering itself though, no? Using any other system would lead to the same amount of inconsistencies, even if you use Marvel's own "Megaverse" and "Omniverse" terms like the OBD do.
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Not the fault of system itself, it's impossible to find a power scale for comics. I don't want to criticize the tiering system for obvious reasons. However it just shows that tiering system does not work as good for comics as it does for other sources.

It also does not work with toon force cartoons for obvious reasons
 
Lina Shields thought that we should highlight this thread for more input, so I have done so.

However, if it gets out of hand, it should be moved to the staff board, and any rule-breaking posts be deleted.
 
Antvasima said:
Lina Shields thought that we should highlight this thread for more input, so I have done so.

However, if it gets out of hand, it should be moved to the staff board, and any rule-breaking posts be deleted.
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what is defined as rule breaking?
 
As a person who was once completely against Dimensional Tiering I can't help but say that it's a pretty solid way of tiering characters. Though I do think the requirements of being rated as X-Dimensional should be beyond a simple statement that says "Character Y is X-Dimensional".
 
@Darkmon Attempting to attack and dismantle our tiering system would be purely destructive for the wiki.
 
A6colute said:
Let it be as is, I think.
And about "toon force"... 4th wall breaking is a most meaningless power in the fiction.
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Cartoon characters tiering is often abused here. Tiering system can't absolutely define toon force feats. It's even worse than comics
 
I think dimensional tiering works well as long as the character does not go beyond m-theory. Even though it might not be how M-theory hyperspace truly is like, what Monarch explained is pretty much our best guess at it.

Once you go beyond m-theory there is the possibility of multiple temporal dimensions. The same principle as before continues to work, but you would have to consider spatial and temporal dimensions seperately (Umineko for example has both higher spatial and temporal dimensions).

e.g.) Character A (3 spatial, 2 temporal), Character B (15 spatial, 1 temporal)

This matchup would end inconclusive, despite B having more dimensions in total. A would have no means of hurting B. B would not be able to do anything due to A having more temporal dimensions.

However this might be confusing to visitors and finding the exact number of spatial/temporal dimensions for each character could prove difficult.
 
I hope I don't cause a shitstorm by saying this, but this is my honest, civil and completely respectful opinion on the matter.

  • If a verse treats a higher spacial dimension as being completely transcendent of a lower one, rate someone Tier 1 via being higher dimensional.
  • If a verse treats higher spacial dimensions truer to real life, don't rate someone Tier 1.
  • If someone is merely stated to be higher dimensional with no feats remotely close to multiversal and the verse doesn't treat higher dimensions as transcendent, don't rate them as Tier 1.
This seems to be what we pretty much do at the moment, since people like CW's Mxyzptlk, the 5-D smoothies from Ben 10 and TTGL aren't rated multiversal and beyond despite being higher dimensional.

Please keep in mind I mean no disrespect nor am I attempting to make any changes to the current system at all. Only speaking my mind on this manner like other people are.
 
@Ryukama Well, as you said, we cannot start to make changes to a working system, and also cannot be selective in only accepting some explicitly higher-dimensional characters as tier 1. It would be too subjective to gauge properly.

We do, however, make exceptions for supposedly higher-dimensional characters that are explicitly of a much lower power level, i.e. claimed to be higher-dimensional, but lacking all of the geometric properties.
 
I agree with Ant and Matt in that regard as well.
 
not to rain the parade but there's alien in Doctor Who Eighth Series episode 9 who is called 'Boneless'.

'Boneless' is 2D lifeform capable of dragging 3D lifeform (humans) to 2D realm (making humans become 2D) thus making 3D humans 'ceases to function' because our organs obviously needs 3D space to stay alive.

Not enough from there, Boneless apparently could adapt, they could become 3D lifeform themselves (not only moving through walls, but truly stand on 3D space) after long enough exposure to 3D World.

Of course, Boneless gets defeated by The Doctor in the end. But that's Time Lord for you.

This, I think is the case where higher-dimensional characters are powerless against 2D character who have superpowers.

In this way, Boneless is like Bill Cipher from Gravity Falls who could treaten beings on higher-dimensions despite being only lower dimensional being.

So... what do you guys think? Or is this special case?
 
From my point of view those are special cases, enabled by the author himself to screw physics and do what they do.
 
BlaLig said:
snip
Click to expand...
For clarification, Boneless are specifically 2-D beings who have technology/powers that allow them to alter 3-D space. They're not dangerous because they're 2-D, but because their entire power set is based around manipulation of spatial dimensions, such as draining the substance from a 3-D object in order to make it 2-D while transferring said substance to a formerly 2-D object, even themselves. It is unknown to the exact degree they could do this, but technically, the Boneless are still tier 11 on purely physical terms. Their abilities just allow them to hit infinitely higher.
 
@Azzy Well the truer to real life part is what I've been told by LT and other knowledgeable people who study in the field. Along with Antvasima and Matt saying the Tiering System isn't 100% accurate to real life in that regard. And just because a higher dimensional structure is rather unknown to us, does not mean that it works the way VS Battles Wiki or a few fictional stories says it does.

Of course I am not criticizing the system. I think it works very well for fiction and is a vastly better alternative to the many other options. And even if it isn't scienfically inaccurate, which I am not entirely sure of it being since I don't have much knowledge in such a field, that doesn't really matter. As many of the things we use to index fiction (like Attack Potency and FTL speeds) are based upon scientific inaccuracies. This is fiction.
 
Ryukama said:
@Azzy Well the truer to real life part is what I've been told by LT and other knowledgeable people who study in the field.
Click to expand...
On a theoretical scale, yes. What I am saying is that it is likely impossible for us as humans to know for sure. I am not saying the system is 100% accurate to real life. I am saying that by the very nature of some feats in fiction it cannot be, nor can any fictional scale that judges feats that go beyond universe level, because we're probably never going to be able to fully prove alternate realities, anyway.
 
Alright. I see and agree to that then.
 
@LT I agree. I'm only saying if the fiction treats something like real life does, we should do so too when regarding that particular verse. If not, then we treat it the way the fiction treats it.

We don't deny characters FTL speeds or discard AP because real life goes against those things. That'd be ridiculous.
 
Ryukama said:
@LT I agree. I'm only saying if the fiction treats something like real life does, we should do so too when regarding that particular verse. If not, then we treat it the way the fiction treats it.
We don't deny characters FTL speeds or discard AP because real life goes against those things. That'd be ridiculous.
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i mean the ftl thing is different, even in basic classical mechanics (with no speed limit), dimensions would be different outside fiction
 
I know the two separate cases aren't the same. I'm only saying just because something works differently in real life, doesn't immediately mean we shouldn't use it for fiction.
 
Ryukama said:
I know the two separate cases aren't the same. I'm only saying just because something works differently in real life, doesn't immediately mean we shouldn't use it for fiction.
Click to expand...
yes
 
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