Dimensional tiering in vs battles

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree. And Mathematics don't need to follow the real world, they just need to make sense mathematically. That's called an "Axiom" there, something that is declared by Mathematicians to be true because it makes mathematical sense for it to be true, regardless of how it might actually be in reality

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

I feel like dimensionality is the scientific approach to the whole concept of "higher plane of existence", at least that's how I understand it nowadays in the more simply fashion. A lot of people outside VBW just go with how much worlds a character can destroy and call it a day, but I believe there is a substantial difference between a human from a regular reality and a (human) being who ascended a higher reality --- especially if that higher reality is infinitely times greater, similar how dimensions are addressed here.

I'm curious how taking into account multiple temporal dimensions would change the scene in VBW and its tiering system, but I feel like that's a topic worthy of a seperate thread. But yeah if you are capable of existing in a reality or multiverse that is infinitely times greater than the previous one, that is definitely a step higher than just how much X universes Y can destroy.

 

[BlaLig]

I agree. And Mathematics don't need to follow the real world, they just need to make sense mathematically. That's called an "Axiom" there, something that is declared by Mathematicians to be true because it makes mathematical sense for it to be true, regardless of how it might actually be in reality

Well, the upper limit for mathematics prolly just up to High 1-B. Tier 1-A probably escapes any kind of mathematical descriptions/Axioms. Then again, dimensional tiering is just up to High 1-B.

 

[Blahblah9755]

The way I see it, one of the biggest flaws and strengths of the dimensional tiering system is that its based entirely on differing degrees of infinity. This lets us avoid issues like someone who can stomp an infinite multiverse buster being placed on par with someone who can destroy an "infinitely infinitely infinitely infinite" multiverse, and it lets us index the characters through something other than an arbitrary number of +'s after multiversal. That's something I've seen on other character indexing sites/debate forums, though I won't say where.

I think it becomes an issue when it comes to differentiating between characters with power over spatial and temporal dimensions. There's also the issue of dealing with the difference between having infinite power over a certain number if dimensions and finite power over a higher number of dimensions, we do this with 3D-5D power, but not on higher tiers (I assume it would just be too hectic to do so). That being said, the dimensional tiering system is still best equipped to deal with these issues of the different systems I've seen.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. The main advantage is that it allows us to handle much higher degrees of scale than our previous system.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The previous system also has a sort of... Insane jump.

Multiversal+ is 2-A

Megaverse levels, ignoring the redundacy of assuming that Multiple collections of infinite universes are larger than mere infinite universes, are a High 2-A type of thing.

Then it jumps straight into Omniversal, which going by it's logical extension is High 1-B.

 

[SSJRyu1]

So I did have a question regarding non physical hax and higher diemsnions actually. I know for example we treat hihger diemsnional characters as basically immune to lower diemsnional characters hax unless it is specifically shown to work on them, this makes perfect sense to me for anything that relies on a target being in range, or having to be physically damaged by an attack, since theoretically a lower diemsnional form can't physically interact with a higher one and vice versa, but what of attacks that don't rely on range or any sort of physical position or contact at all? Such as mind manip via psychic powers, or soul manip? Wouldn't those theoretically work on a being regardelss of it's physical diemsnional standing since it does not rely on there position in physical space or time? I dunno, I might be missing soemthing but it seems like higher diemsnional standing is similar to non corporeal when viewed by a lower dimensional being, except they are also infintly physically "larger" for lack of a better term. Thoughts on this?

 

[Antvasima]

@SSJRyu1

Well, it depends on the rules that a writer is using for his or her setting. For example, when Grant Morrison wrote a story featuring the son of Mxyzptlk, the 5-Dimensional Vyndktvx, as a villain, he allowed powerful 3-D psychics to barely be able to affect his mind, although they considered it unfathomably vast.

Basically, if souls or consciousnesses are also treated as infinitely larger for higher-dimensional entities, then they would also not be possible to affect by lower-dimensional entities, but plot convenience usually trumps all else within fiction, so it depends from story to story.

 

[SSJRyu1]

OK, so basically Hax is a grey area, and depends entirely on if the writer specifically makes the soul/mind etc equally larger in proportion to the physical body? That makes sense, so in my video if I were to say by default they could be effected by such hax theoretically, unless they are shown to have equal resistance to the hax as they do to physical stuff that would probably be the most accurate thing to say eh?

 

[Antvasima]

No, logically, I think that everything about them should be of the same scale as their bodies, but writers tend to "cheat" a lot to make their stories work.

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

@SSJRyu1, @Antvasima

I think it also largely depends on the intention and portrayal of low dimensional beings usurping higher ones. If low dimensional beings possess some sort of trancendental force which is established in the plot of their source material to exceed the power of higher dimensional beings, I don't think that can be considered an outlier or a "cheat".

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Okay, I'm not trying to break to rules or change the system, but I want to ask something that has been itching me.

Is there any reason you guys don't tolerate people trying to change the system? I know most people who try to change the system do not have any reliable evidence supporting their "rebellion", but what if someone comes in and provides reliable evidence to show a potentially much more accurate and better tiering system?

Again, I am just asking. Curiosity, and all. Please do not take this question as rebelling against the system. I am confused a bit by the tiering (Because dimensional stuff is relatively hard for me) but I do think it's accurate enough.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

@ShinyMagicalGirl As you said so far the only opposations to the tiering system have been people without any evidence guided by their desire to see their favorite characters ranked higher or because they simply don't understand the current system.

Now, assuming that someone comes with a much better idea then we are going to run into a bit of a problem because around 1000 profiles would need to be checked and changed.Which is going to take A LOT OF HOURS to do, and understandably staff members are hesitant to sacrifice days of their lifes doing such a project.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

@Gwynbleiddd

I guess you're right. With so many pages now, I guess it would be a tremendous project just to change everyone. Can't believe I didn't think about that haha.

 

[Antvasima]

In addition, this is a working system that everybody in the staff have taken their time to get to understand, and we do not have any better alternatives available. Attempting major revisions would throw the wiki into chaos.

 

[Sera_EX]

The system is fine the way it is and it works. Not to mention "dimensional tiering" is actually the lesser portion of our system. Tiers 11, 3, 2, 1, and 0 are affected by it while Tiers 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, and 4 are based on energy. I find it ridiculous to say "VSBW is only about dimensions". That is an untrue and unfair claim to make. Most of our system, primarily our middle and bottom echelon, requires calculations and observations to determine those tiers. It is why we have a calculation group within our staff. Dimensional tiering works because it helps us guage levels of power beyond current scientific understanding. It is certainly a better option than subscribing to ridiculous "verse" terms like Megaverse. Yes we coined the Hyperverse and Outerverse terms but that was to prevent redundant use of the multiverse term. Not to mention when such terms like megaverse or omniverse are only found in western works, primarily comic books.

Yet, both western and eastern fictions use higher dimensional settings. That makes it our best option to use. There is no better alternative, at least not at the moment. Contrary to popular belief, we have grown and actually became a very popular wiki after we began using this system. Before, under old management (pre Kavpeny and Antvasima) things were way different. According to my husband, we've become much more organized and independent since then.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Our Wikia used to simple be a copypaste of any other site before the current leadership took hold and fixed it.

Our system is just part of what makes us unique, and in my eyes, more organized and unbiased than the rest.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we do in fact have roughly 24 times as many page views every month as when I first came here, according to Quantcast, but it isn't like I and Kavpeny did the work alone. We have had an awful lot of help from the rest of the staff, and the regular members.

 

[Nibbler3100]

sounds good post the link to it when it's ready!

 

[Sheoth]

I know the user Trexalfa has made some very interesting points working against the dimensional tiering system on other VS sites across the web if you want to hear his opinion.

Someone should call him here.

 

[FTW395]

I know the user Trexalfa has made some very interesting points working against the dimensional tiering system on other VS sites across the web if you want to hear his opinion.
Someone should call him here.

Might as well just link his opinions

 

[Sheoth]

They're lost to me. I simply recall seeing them in the past.

 

[Antvasima]

I would much prefer if we try to pick it apart to as limited extent as possible. As we have mentioned above, it is by far our best available alternative.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Holy--! Sheoth?! What's up, man!

 

[SSJRyu1]

thanks sheoth, I will see if I can't find posts of his on the topic, and of course if he could stop by this thread to give input it is always good to hear from as many viewpoints as possible when trying to make an unbiased analysis on the topic.

 

[Shazam121]

Dimensional tiering is fine as long as other factors are also considered.

From a scientific point of view can different dimensions even interact with each other? Can a 2D and a 3D beings even see or interact with each other in reality?

Also, merely existing in x-dimensional space does not make you x-dimensional. If string theory or the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics are true our universe may have 11 to infinite dimensions; that doesn't mean humans are suddenly infinite dimensional.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Dimensional tiering is fine as long as other factors are also considered.
From a scientific point of view can different dimensions even interact with each other? Can a 2D and a 3D beings even see or interact with each other in reality?

Also, merely existing in x-dimensional space does not make you x-dimensional. If string theory or the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics are true our universe may have 11 to infinite dimensions; that doesn't mean humans are suddenly infinite dimensional.

Well, in this case, we are looking at it from a simple geometric point of view, not scientifically.