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Devilman CRT tier Upgrade

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What do everyone agree on, I think we should add those changes and discuss further with the other stuff it’s pointless to be a stand still with everything when some things are already accepted by most here ?
I think KingCollapser had some arguments he still wanted to make but the main thing that was agreed on was the low 2-C upgrade.
 
I'll concede to some of these arguments.

In what capacity was that an erased world or a dimensional gap like the one she saw?
The Blog @JTGamer96 Linked Explained it better than I can.

“The Timeline

First came the age of Chaos were the battle between Gods and Titans happen and where the universe wasn't yet solidified . After that, God solidifies the universe and creates Heaven, Hell and Earth. After the creation of the Earth God leaves Earth for 100 million of year and the events of Mao Dante starts with the war between the Gods and the Demons. Evenutally the Demons won forcing the Gods to leave Earth and according to the anime Mao Dante recreates the universe into the Devilman verse and became Demon Lord Zennon.

Then the events of Akuma Kishi happen. Because of Mao Dante recreating the universe other Demons break free from the prison of darkness and attack the Garden of Eden. Lucifer Amon and Sirine are tasked by God to fight those Demons but fail and merging into Demons them self.

God returns to earth after 100 of millions of years with a sole task to erase all of the demons and the microcosm with it, but Satan rebels and won the first war between them, but he lost most of his power so he and the demons decide to hibernate for 2 millions of years to fight the final war with God and his army.”

That's not what I mean.

I meant how come he never mentions it in Lady Devilman?
Because DMVH came out 12 years after Lady so it’s possible Nagai Didn’t think to give him a line mentioning it. However Akira does drop a lot of Knowledge about the Greek Pantheon and He does mention Things about Cerberus and even scared off Medusa. He even kills Cerberus in DMVH.
This still isn't proof of anything, though. You're basically just saying that he wandered Hell.
No. What i did was drop a whole timeline of events to show you that Hades fits into the story.
It also relies on the logic that Akira even found her, or that she'd have gone to Hell in Lady Devilman. Lady Devilman could've easily just moved on because he realised he didn't even have a chance of resurrecting her (something that's not even in his abilities to begin with).

It's just head canon, and I don't really see the need to address it.
The Hell from Hades and the Hell from lady are the same place. So yes She did go to Hell and yes he did find her soul there.

Akira does have the ability to resurrect people so that’s wrong.

You can claim it’s head canon if you want but my claims have evidence behind them.
Ok, but he's still incorporeal on Earth in Devilman Lady, so that really doesn't matter.
Because he doesn’t have a physical body on earth, He’s a ghost. Why are you leaving that context out? The only reason he was corporeal in Hades was because he released the souls of the dead and they went back to their bodies. He’s only corporeal on earth AFTER this not before. That’s why the story starts in Hell.
I was misremembering something.

I'm not forgetting anything. Once again, they would know or mention that Akira died at any point. They don't.
Why would they mention that if they don’t even know who he is? How would they know that Akira died if Argos literally had to explain Akira’s backstory to them? Argos even admits he doesn’t know everything. Akira is a complete stranger to everyone in that room. You’re banking on Argos saying “seems to have gone into hiding” and normally that would mean someone is alive but in Akira’s case it’s different. He’s already shown the ability to live as a ghost and move around both Hell and Earth freely. So gone into hiding is referring to the fact that he was laying low. Reread that scene, they’re visibly confused about everything going on.
Akira is not strictly a human soul after fusing with Amon.
That’s correct but that’s also old news.
They know he's a Devilman while he was in Hell though, so they absolutely would.
Akira literally shouts out That he is the Devilman in his introduction before killing Thanatos. One Hades guards says “A demon calling himself Devilman has invaded”. So again no they wouldn’t.
What do you mean how? Persephone said only god’s should be able to Cross between The living room and Hades. Vurava says that He and Akira have power equal to gods.
Not in Hell. Hades Akira is corporeal on Earth, in Lady Devilman, he's a ghost.
Again he’s corporeal on earth because the well of souls was destroyed and not beforehand.
In order to even travel to Hell in the first place and break that dimensional barrier, he'd have to not be in Hell on the first place. So he's on Earth prior to the events of D.v.H, and it also would suggest that he's a living being because souls are automatically in the afterlife. It'd also counter your dimensional rift logic.
He didn’t travel to hell he was already there. That’s how the story starts.
Also, that's not how it works. Akira would have needed his intact physical body in order to resurrect on Earth perfectly like Sirene (who was properly resurrected by Hades) did. Simply destroying the Well of Souls wouldn't explain anything.
Destroying the well of souls sent all the captured souls back to earth. Hades’s power is needed restore their memories because without them everyone might as well be zombies acting on Primal instinct. But none of those scans say that their bodies had to be intact and most if not all the revived bodies are damaged. Argos even said The dead have returned to the living world
I'm not doubting that Hades and the Greek Pantheon exists. What I was just asking is why wandering Hell and such proves that they're both from the same continuity. I said it's not proof that they're the same iterations of each characters. The fact that there's multiple enormous contradictions suggests they aren't part of the original continuity.
This is the same iteration Who Fought Against Satans Army and lost. The contradiction you’re trying to prove is that he was Alive so this must be a different Akira but That’s incorrect. I found DMVH on seven seas entertainment and it even says “This stand-alone sequel continues from the end of the original manga–with a surprise showdown between Devilman and the legendary mecha Great Mazinger!
The fact that many universes exist within their series is what I'm getting at, my guy. D.v.H isn't canon to OG Devilman and shouldn't scale to it.
There are many universes but this is still the same version of Akira from The OG since Argos directly referenced the end of the First manga. You can scale them to each other because Nagai wrote both of these manga.
This is like saying Violence Jack is canon and should scale to main continuity Devilman, or that Devilman and Demon Lord Dante's monotheist gods are the same entity when that wouldn't make sense.
Violence Jack is canon to itself and yes he should scale to the main continuity version. Jack is a revived Akira with a power amp and actually scales higher than the OG since he defeated Satan and Zenon alone When the OG couldn’t beat satan with the Devilman Army at his side.

Why wouldn’t it make sense? They are from the same series and Dante(Who later became zenon) was in hell along with Akira.
For example, Aoi Kurosaki appears in Devilman Grimoire, but she's not the same character as the one from Lady Devilman.
Devilman G is irrelevant that’s why I didn’t mention it. It’s not written by Nagai, it’s a reboot of the series, the continuity is completely different.
Not the continuity, so it doesn't matter.

Demon Express Delivery is just a sequel to the original series, which doesn't tie in at all with Devilman.
I know that it’s a sequel but that didn’t disprove anything. The black sun in Enma’s Hell is the same black sun from Neo Devilman. They meet face to face in Chapter Vol.4 Chapter 24: Those Who Came From Hell of Mazinger Angels (Which was also written by Nagai), Enma name drops and draws a picture of Devilman in Enma Gaiden, Akira Name drops Enma the king of Hell twice within the 3rd chapter of Devilman, And Enma is the descendant of Hades who Devilman fought. Dynamic hero’s is also a crossover with Devilman, Enma, Mazinger, and other Nagai characters. So it Seems like they do tie in at several points.
Plus, Mazinger and D.v.H Hades are mechanical gods that were born in an alternate dimension Olympus.
Zeus and Poseidon are Also Mechanical gods in the Devilman universe and in the Beginning of DMVH it says that that’s the same Hades from Mazinger.
 
First came the age of Chaos were the battle between Gods and Titans happen and where the universe wasn't yet solidified . After that, God solidifies the universe and creates Heaven, Hell and Earth. After the creation of the Earth God leaves Earth for 100 million of year and the events of Mao Dante starts with the war between the Gods and the Demons. Evenutally the Demons won forcing the Gods to leave Earth and according to the anime Mao Dante recreates the universe into the Devilman verse and became Demon Lord Zennon.
The link doesn't even work.

Anyway, I watched the show and that's blatantly not even what happens. Dante and his sister are Adam and Eve, and recreate the universe into a period of the past where they're Adam and Eve in a new world which still contains modern animal life, like deer and birds. Dante from this version doesn't even translate to the Devilman version in any capacity.

Plus, God in Dante is fragmented across all humanity. He would've had to reset God too in order for the God from Devilman, who's separate from humanity, to exist.

Who even says Lady Devilman was looking at a version of Mao Dante that wouldn't even be written for another decade? This is what I mean by head canon.
No. What i did was drop a whole timeline of events to show you that Hades fits into the story.
You really didn't, though. Literally your entire point was that he wandered Hell, which is something he could've done anyway if Hades was non-canonical.
Not even true resurrection. They're still in Hell, and he also needed Vurava to do it.
Because he doesn’t have a physical body on earth, He’s a ghost. Why are you leaving that context out?
I'm not leaving the context out, this is literally the point, my guy.
Because they're literally the highest ranking beings in Hell. They'd know and mention whether or not he didn't even have a physical body even if they didn't know who he was.
That’s correct but that’s also old news.
Yes, he is still human and different from Demons. The point was that he's not strictly a traditional human, though.
What do you mean how? Persephone said only god’s should be able to Cross between The living room and Hades. Vurava says that He and Akira have power equal to gods.
You mean the level of power that he attained after staying in Hell?

Also, that's complete horseshit in this story. Akira was way less powerful than Hades prior to his amp, and Hades was one of the gods who fled the Giants, whom God wrecked. So Akira in D.v.H <<< Hades < Giants <<< God by your own logic.
He didn’t travel to hell he was already there. That’s how the story starts.
They literally say he travelled into Hell, and the official summary confirms that he invaded the underworld. Of course the story starts with him inside Hell, but he was outside of it in order to get in before the events of the manga.
My guy, listen to the point I'm trying to make.

I know the well of souls is intact.

My point is that A) Akira travelled into Hell before this, and B) destroying the Well of Souls wouldn't have put Akira back in his original body with all of his memories intact. You literally just showed that yourself.
But none of those scans say that their bodies had to be intact and most if not all the revived bodies are damaged. Argos even said The dead have returned to the living world
That wasn't even the point I was trying to make, but nvm on it, I just misinterpreted something about the dead retaining previous damages.
This is the same iteration Who Fought Against Satans Army and lost. The contradiction you’re trying to prove is that he was Alive so this must be a different Akira but That’s incorrect. I found DMVH on seven seas entertainment and it even says “This stand-alone sequel continues from the end of the original manga–with a surprise showdown between Devilman and the legendary mecha Great Mazinger!
A) not even the official summary, and B) the original manga can mean either Mazinger or Devilman in this context.
There are many universes but this is still the same version of Akira from The OG since Argos directly referenced the end of the First manga.
All we know from Argos is that the Devilman army fought Satan, who was Ryo.

In fact, Satan doesn't even have breasts in this version.
You can scale them to each other because Nagai wrote both of these manga.
This is just 'he wrote them both so they scale' again. After the Darkside of Devilman argument, I'm not even going to entertain this.
Violence Jack is canon to itself and yes he should scale to the main continuity version. Jack is a revived Akira with a power amp and actually scales higher than the OG since he defeated Satan and Zenon aloneWhen the OG couldn’t beat satan with the Devilman Army at his side.
See this is my point right here. Jack was amped massively. Original Devilman Akira does not have this level of power, so he doesn't scale to it.

Do not conflate random timelines and parallel universes in Devilman.
I know that it’s a sequel but that didn’t disprove anything.
Yeah it does.

If the prequel isn't part of the continuity, neither is the sequel. It's that simple.
Already covered this, but I just want to mention that none of your links even work.
Dynamic hero’s is also a crossover with Devilman, Enma, Mazinger, and other Nagai characters. So it Seems like they do tie in at several points.
Dynamic Heroes uses the anime incarnations (or maybe Hiruta in case of Devilman) of the characters, even featuring/mentioning anime/Hiruta-only Demons like Ebain and Lafleur.
Zeus and Poseidon are Also Mechanical gods in the Devilman universe and in the Beginning of DMVH it says that that’s the same Hades from Mazinger.
My point was that they aren't Mechanical Gods in the Express Delivery Universe.

I literally said the D.v.H Hades was a Mechanical God. You're missing the point completely.
 
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I think KingCollapser had some arguments he still wanted to make but the main thing that was agreed on was the low 2-C upgrade.
My main argument is that devilman’s profile shouldn’t only be limited to the first manga when there’s a lot of secondary canon that can be included. I think I’ve shown plenty of evidence and it follows the rules.
 
I never said it should be limited to the original manga, I said it should be limited to what's in the same continuity/is proven to scale since the profile isn't a composite of continuities and canons, even if GoNagai wrote the stories outside the original continuity.

Secondary canon / extended canon doesn't even mean that. For example, a novelization of a film is secondary canon due to simply being an expansion, so we can use feats from it if the parts we're using don't contradict the source material. They're still within the overall universe.

If you want to add feats from Amon or Hades, you can simply just make profiles for those. Hell, I'd even be willing to help.
 
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I never said it should be limited to the original manga, I said it should be limited to what's in the same continuity/is proven to scale since the profile isn't a composite of continuities and canons, even if GoNagai wrote the stories outside the original continuity.

Secondary canon / extended canon doesn't even mean that. For example, a novelization of a film is secondary canon due to simply being an expansion, so we can use feats from it if the parts we're using don't contradict the source material. They're still within the overall universe.

If you want to add feats from Amon or Hades, you can simply just make profiles for those. Hell, I'd even be willing to help.
That wasn’t a shot at you I was talking in general. I’ve already shown proof of the manga I listed being in the same continuity minus violence Jack. Jack absolutely scales to the other manga counterparts and is stronger than his version in the OG. The feats I listed don’t contradict each other and I’ve linked many scans showing that. A profile for Hades wouldn’t make sense since it’s still the same continuity from the OG and Lady. I’m not even using any anime feats these are coming strictly from the source material and are consistent. A profile for Amon wouldn’t make much sense either since that’s also the OG Devilman just with a different latter half of its manga.
 
I also have many scans contradicting you, and you have posted numerous pieces of evidence that actually contradict your points or just prove nothing. It's mostly just head canon too, like assuming the Mao Dante anime leads into OG Devilman when that makes little sense.

No it doesn't. Most of Amon is set between a made up gap after Miki's death, or in the distance past. Devilman himself also has different feats, like tanking a nuclear bombardment. It literally starts off with Devilman melting part of the planet, so idk what to tell you.

Also, to be honest here, you haven't really proven that they're even in the same continuity. All you've contended are some of the contradictions between them.
 
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I also have many scans contradicting you, and you have posted numerous pieces of evidence that actually contradict your points or just prove nothing. It's mostly just head canon too, like assuming the Mao Dante anime leads into OG Devilman when that makes little sense.
I have multiple scans countering you. You even admitted to remembering some of your claims wrongly and you posted wrong information that is the opposite of what the manga(s) is showing.

This is the last episode of Mao dante. This is a link to The wiki. Go to the 2002 Anime section. The last Scene of Mao dante is a parallel to this scan from Devilman lady. Never mind the fact that Dante is already a character in the Manga.
No it doesn't. Most of Amon is set between a made up gap after Miki's death, or in the distance past. Devilman himself also has different feats, like tanking a nuclear bombardment. It literally starts off with Devilman melting part of the planet, so idk what to tell you.
Amon: The Darkside of the Devilman is an alternate setting to the last chapters of the original Devilman manga. Where in the original, Devilman faces Satan after seeing his slain lover Miki Makimura's severed head, Amon sees Akira lose control of himself, and due to his sadness and depression from not being able to protect Miki, allows Amon to gain control of Akira and his powers again.That’s straight from the wiki. Amon is just an alternative ending to the original manga. I remember him tanking those missiles, in that same fight it’s reveled that Amon sunk Atlantis. In Devilman Lady, Dante Mentions the disappearance of Atlantis and Mu. That’s a connection another between the two manga and Mu is a connection to God Mazinger.
Also, to be honest here, you haven't really proven that they're even in the same continuity. All you've contended are some of the contradictions between them.
I’ve shown multiple connections between the Devilman continuity and even Nagai’s whole manga universe. I linked Wikis, Videos, And scans from various manga that support my claims.
 
On another, completely unrelated note, Vurava is referring to Demons as a collective when saying their power is equal to God's. He's not saying that he and Akira alone possess that level of ability.
I have multiple scans countering you. You even admitted to remembering some of your claims wrongly and you posted wrong information that is the opposite of what the manga(s) is showing.
I admitted that I remembered one claim from Devilman Lady and something from Hades wrongly. Half the time, it doesn't even feel like you're actually reading my arguments.

My guy, you've been posting bullshit head canon this entire thread, like assuming that every single soul on Earth went randomly went through a dimensional gap to a non-existent universe (something that's never been done before, since the world in Saga was very much extant).
This is the last episode of Mao dante. This is a link to The wiki. Go to the 2002 Anime section. The last Scene of Mao dante is a parallel to this scan from Devilman lady. Never mind the fact that Dante is already a character in the Manga.
I've seen it and explained to you why it doesn't line up for the Mao Dante anime above the comment you're responding to. You've just posted sourceless wikia as if it's fact, and one scan that very easily could exist without Mao Dante (something that came out far afterwards and with no involvement from Go Nagai) being canonical.

'He's a character in the manga.' He's also different characters in multiple versions of Devilman, including ones written by Go Nagai. Dante is just a name. It's like saying all Devilman manga are canon because Akira Fudo is a consistent character. In fact, if you want a better example, it's like saying God Mazinger and Getter Robo are canon just because groups called the Dinosaur Empire exist in them.
It doesn't say alternative ending, it says alternative setting, which literally debunks your argument (or it would, anyway, if you gave something more substantial than an unsourced wiki article). It's an entirely different reality with different events (certainly not limited to the ending) and a history that completely conflicts with the original.
I remember him tanking those missiles, in that same fight it’s reveled that Amon sunk Atlantis. In Devilman Lady, Dante Mentions the disappearance of Atlantis and Mu.
First of all, a city with the same name that is a common piece of literature doesn't confirm they're canon. Both can just have Atlantis. '[insert here] has the same name, so it's canon' still isn't an argument. I could also say the same thing about Mu, but that's much more obscure outside of Godzilla.

Secondly, Atlantis was not an advanced mega-city in Amon.

Lastly, he says 'some people do talk about', so that's not even proof within the universe of Devilman. Not only that, but this is after 2 timeline resets, so it wouldn't even support your point anyway.
That’s a connection another between the two manga and Mu is a connection to God Mazinger.
You mean the thing that's not even apart of any other Mazinger series and has its own, vastly different version of Hades? How does this support your point (even though they don't actually confirm Mu exists in the chapter, anyway)?

If you even read God Mazinger, it also has a history that completely contradicts Devilman.
I’ve shown multiple connections between the Devilman continuity and even Nagai’s whole manga universe.
You've explained that Hades has Hades in it, and that some other series of Devilman have a descendant of a God called Hades. Cool, the latter has a connection, but the former is just a character.
I linked Wikis, Videos, And scans from various manga that support my claims.
And, I'm sorry, but half of what you've said just doesn't make sense. It's blatant canon welding, and mostly not even official sources.

Also, the wikis and videos you've posted don't even really provide any evidence or sources, and aren't somehow evidence in and of themselves.
 
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I originally came to see Devilman get the upgrade he deserved so I think we should settle with the low 2-C that was agreed on, and accept the creation of separate profiles for the other versions of Devilman which are higher or lower.

Was still looking forward to Devilman vs Dante being possibly fair lol
 
Yes, Satan, Zennon and Lady Devilman Akira should get Low 2-C via God scaling, since God made Hell at the very least.
 
I don’t think there’s much else to be discussed right now, I believe most agree on separate keys for the other devilman outside king, and everyone agree on low 2c
 
I don’t think there’s much else to be discussed right now, I believe most agree on separate keys for the other devilman outside king, and everyone agree on low 2c
I Still Think it should Low 2-C possibly low 1-A is fair. God Not only Made Hell a 5th dimensional universe/dimension but he also created An unknown number of universes. Both Devilman and Satan scale to him.
 
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I originally came to see Devilman get the upgrade he deserved so I think we should settle with the low 2-C that was agreed on, and accept the creation of separate profiles for the other versions of Devilman which are higher or lower.

Was still looking forward to Devilman vs Dante being possibly fair lol
Dmc Dante? That’s a fair fight
 
I originally came to see Devilman get the upgrade he deserved so I think we should settle with the low 2-C that was agreed on, and accept the creation of separate profiles for the other versions of Devilman which are higher or lower.

Was still looking forward to Devilman vs Dante being possibly fair lol
I’d be happy to see more profiles for the other Devilmen from different universes
 
I Still Think it should Low 2-C possibly low 1-A is fair. God Not only Made Hell a 5th dimensional universe/dimension but he also created An unknown number of universes. Both Devilman and Satan scale to him.
That’s not 1-A and that’s fine you believe that but you can’t be stalling things, no reason to stop the upgrade because you think he can be higher, just argue that later after we change the things that are accepted so we can actually make progress
 
I Still Think it should Low 2-C possibly low 1-A is fair. God Not only Made Hell a 5th dimensional universe/dimension but he also created An unknown number of universes. Both Devilman and Satan scale to him.
That's fair, though 5-D is actually Low 1-C.
That’s not 1-A and that’s fine you believe that but you can’t be stalling things, no reason to stop the upgrade because you think he can be higher, just argue that later after we change the things that are accepted so we can actually make progress
Tbf, I'm really the one stalling. I'll make my suggestions.
 
That’s not 1-A and that’s fine you believe that but you can’t be stalling things, no reason to stop the upgrade because you think he can be higher, just argue that later after we change the things that are accepted so we can actually make progress
My mistake, I meant to put 1-C not 1A. I’ve already added my reasons why in the original thread.
 
Just to double check again, were you gonna upgrade his speed too? And if yes, what was it to?
He doesn’t have notable any speed feats in the OG that I can remember and In Lady he gains time Travel so I’m not sure where to place his speed but in some other manga he has good feats.

I added the scans to the thread but I’ll post them again here

Reacts to this laser not once but twice

Reacts to this photon laser and counter attacks

Uses his mouth beam to shoot himself back to earth



Devilman reacts to this kick from Cyborg 009
(Note: 009 can move ftl without his acceleration device)

Devilman clashes with 009 while he’s accelerating and they destroy this building


Devilman moves faster than 009 can see while 009 is in acceleration mode and kicks him through two buildings

Catches up to 009 and grabs his leg
 
I think we should be done if we can get @ByAsura to unlock the pages but it depends on @Kingcollapser to add them
I’m willing to agree to disagree about the Timeline and settle for separate profiles or each Manga version of Devilman. There’s also different anime versions that can be added but they are Far weaker than their Manga counterparts
 
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Sorry, got lost in other revisions.

Here's my ideas.

Basically, Akira gets a pre-death | post-death key. I was thinking pre-hell | hell, pre-devilman lady | devilman lady, or something similar, but the former eliminates any discussion about timelines and is more accurate because Akira retained that level of power after his resurrection.

His pre-death key stays the same, but post-death becomes Universe level+, possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (Grew much stronger during his stay in Hell. Comparable to Satan, who resurrected Akira to assist him in fighting God)

Satan and Zennon are

Universe level+, possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (Part of the Demon Lord, who has power equal to God, who in turn created Hell, a separate 5-Dimensional space-time with a layered cosmology similar to Dante's Inferno—the lowest level of Hell, Cocytus, being separated from the rest of Hell by a trans-dimensional barrier)

I also plan to add citations.
 
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