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I actually have a CRT for it, if you wanna link.
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Devilman CRT tier Upgrade
- Thread starter Kingcollapser
- Start date
- Status
I actually have a CRT for it, if you wanna link.
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I think KingCollapser had some arguments he still wanted to make but the main thing that was agreed on was the low 2-C upgrade.
Kingcollapser
He/Him- 171
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- Thread starter
- #123
The Blog @JTGamer96 Linked Explained it better than I can.
“The Timeline
First came the age of Chaos were the battle between Gods and Titans happen and where the universe wasn't yet solidified . After that, God solidifies the universe and creates Heaven, Hell and Earth. After the creation of the Earth God leaves Earth for 100 million of year and the events of Mao Dante starts with the war between the Gods and the Demons. Evenutally the Demons won forcing the Gods to leave Earth and according to the anime Mao Dante recreates the universe into the Devilman verse and became Demon Lord Zennon.Then the events of Akuma Kishi happen. Because of Mao Dante recreating the universe other Demons break free from the prison of darkness and attack the Garden of Eden. Lucifer Amon and Sirine are tasked by God to fight those Demons but fail and merging into Demons them self.
God returns to earth after 100 of millions of years with a sole task to erase all of the demons and the microcosm with it, but Satan rebels and won the first war between them, but he lost most of his power so he and the demons decide to hibernate for 2 millions of years to fight the final war with God and his army.”
Because DMVH came out 12 years after Lady so it’s possible Nagai Didn’t think to give him a line mentioning it. However Akira does drop a lot of Knowledge about the Greek Pantheon and He does mention Things about Cerberus and even scared off Medusa. He even kills Cerberus in DMVH.
No. What i did was drop a whole timeline of events to show you that Hades fits into the story.
The Hell from Hades and the Hell from lady are the same place. So yes She did go to Hell and yes he did find her soul there.
Akira does have the ability to resurrect people so that’s wrong.
You can claim it’s head canon if you want but my claims have evidence behind them.
Because he doesn’t have a physical body on earth, He’s a ghost. Why are you leaving that context out? The only reason he was corporeal in Hades was because he released the souls of the dead and they went back to their bodies. He’s only corporeal on earth AFTER this not before. That’s why the story starts in Hell.
Why would they mention that if they don’t even know who he is? How would they know that Akira died if Argos literally had to explain Akira’s backstory to them? Argos even admits he doesn’t know everything. Akira is a complete stranger to everyone in that room. You’re banking on Argos saying “seems to have gone into hiding” and normally that would mean someone is alive but in Akira’s case it’s different. He’s already shown the ability to live as a ghost and move around both Hell and Earth freely. So gone into hiding is referring to the fact that he was laying low. Reread that scene, they’re visibly confused about everything going on.
That’s correct but that’s also old news.
Akira literally shouts out That he is the Devilman in his introduction before killing Thanatos. One Hades guards says “A demon calling himself Devilman has invaded”. So again no they wouldn’t.
What do you mean how? Persephone said only god’s should be able to Cross between The living room and Hades. Vurava says that He and Akira have power equal to gods.
Again he’s corporeal on earth because the well of souls was destroyed and not beforehand.
He didn’t travel to hell he was already there. That’s how the story starts.
Destroying the well of souls sent all the captured souls back to earth. Hades’s power is needed restore their memories because without them everyone might as well be zombies acting on Primal instinct. But none of those scans say that their bodies had to be intact and most if not all the revived bodies are damaged. Argos even said The dead have returned to the living world”
This is the same iteration Who Fought Against Satans Army and lost. The contradiction you’re trying to prove is that he was Alive so this must be a different Akira but That’s incorrect. I found DMVH on seven seas entertainment and it even says “This stand-alone sequel continues from the end of the original manga–with a surprise showdown between Devilman and the legendary mecha Great Mazinger!”
There are many universes but this is still the same version of Akira from The OG since Argos directly referenced the end of the First manga. You can scale them to each other because Nagai wrote both of these manga.
Violence Jack is canon to itself and yes he should scale to the main continuity version. Jack is a revived Akira with a power amp and actually scales higher than the OG since he defeated Satan and Zenon alone When the OG couldn’t beat satan with the Devilman Army at his side.
Why wouldn’t it make sense? They are from the same series and Dante(Who later became zenon) was in hell along with Akira.
Devilman G is irrelevant that’s why I didn’t mention it. It’s not written by Nagai, it’s a reboot of the series, the continuity is completely different.
I know that it’s a sequel but that didn’t disprove anything. The black sun in Enma’s Hell is the same black sun from Neo Devilman. They meet face to face in Chapter Vol.4 Chapter 24: Those Who Came From Hell of Mazinger Angels (Which was also written by Nagai), Enma name drops and draws a picture of Devilman in Enma Gaiden, Akira Name drops Enma the king of Hell twice within the 3rd chapter of Devilman, And Enma is the descendant of Hades who Devilman fought. Dynamic hero’s is also a crossover with Devilman, Enma, Mazinger, and other Nagai characters. So it Seems like they do tie in at several points.
Zeus and Poseidon are Also Mechanical gods in the Devilman universe and in the Beginning of DMVH it says that that’s the same Hades from Mazinger.
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The link doesn't even work.
Anyway, I watched the show and that's blatantly not even what happens. Dante and his sister are Adam and Eve, and recreate the universe into a period of the past where they're Adam and Eve in a new world which still contains modern animal life, like deer and birds. Dante from this version doesn't even translate to the Devilman version in any capacity.
Plus, God in Dante is fragmented across all humanity. He would've had to reset God too in order for the God from Devilman, who's separate from humanity, to exist.
Who even says Lady Devilman was looking at a version of Mao Dante that wouldn't even be written for another decade? This is what I mean by head canon.
You really didn't, though. Literally your entire point was that he wandered Hell, which is something he could've done anyway if Hades was non-canonical.
Not even true resurrection. They're still in Hell, and he also needed Vurava to do it.
I'm not leaving the context out, this is literally the point, my guy.
Because they're literally the highest ranking beings in Hell. They'd know and mention whether or not he didn't even have a physical body even if they didn't know who he was.
Yes, he is still human and different from Demons. The point was that he's not strictly a traditional human, though.
You mean the level of power that he attained after staying in Hell?
Also, that's complete horseshit in this story. Akira was way less powerful than Hades prior to his amp, and Hades was one of the gods who fled the Giants, whom God wrecked. So Akira in D.v.H <<< Hades < Giants <<< God by your own logic.
They literally say he travelled into Hell, and the official summary confirms that he invaded the underworld. Of course the story starts with him inside Hell, but he was outside of it in order to get in before the events of the manga.
My guy, listen to the point I'm trying to make.
I know the well of souls is intact.
My point is that A) Akira travelled into Hell before this, and B) destroying the Well of Souls wouldn't have put Akira back in his original body with all of his memories intact. You literally just showed that yourself.
That wasn't even the point I was trying to make, but nvm on it, I just misinterpreted something about the dead retaining previous damages.
A) not even the official summary, and B) the original manga can mean either Mazinger or Devilman in this context.
All we know from Argos is that the Devilman army fought Satan, who was Ryo.
In fact, Satan doesn't even have breasts in this version.
This is just 'he wrote them both so they scale' again. After the Darkside of Devilman argument, I'm not even going to entertain this.
See this is my point right here. Jack was amped massively. Original Devilman Akira does not have this level of power, so he doesn't scale to it.
Do not conflate random timelines and parallel universes in Devilman.
Yeah it does.
If the prequel isn't part of the continuity, neither is the sequel. It's that simple.
Already covered this, but I just want to mention that none of your links even work.
Dynamic Heroes uses the anime incarnations (or maybe Hiruta in case of Devilman) of the characters, even featuring/mentioning anime/Hiruta-only Demons like Ebain and Lafleur.
My point was that they aren't Mechanical Gods in the Express Delivery Universe.
I literally said the D.v.H Hades was a Mechanical God. You're missing the point completely.
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The point about Violence Jack actually makes me remember he doesn't have a profile here, he should get one
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Well, he's technically just the same Akira from the original Devilman, iinm.
Kingcollapser
He/Him- 171
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- Thread starter
- #127
Back when Devilman had a composite profile his Jack feats were up there
Kingcollapser
He/Him- 171
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- Thread starter
- #128
My main argument is that devilman’s profile shouldn’t only be limited to the first manga when there’s a lot of secondary canon that can be included. I think I’ve shown plenty of evidence and it follows the rules.
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I never said it should be limited to the original manga, I said it should be limited to what's in the same continuity/is proven to scale since the profile isn't a composite of continuities and canons, even if GoNagai wrote the stories outside the original continuity.
Secondary canon / extended canon doesn't even mean that. For example, a novelization of a film is secondary canon due to simply being an expansion, so we can use feats from it if the parts we're using don't contradict the source material. They're still within the overall universe.
If you want to add feats from Amon or Hades, you can simply just make profiles for those. Hell, I'd even be willing to help.
Secondary canon / extended canon doesn't even mean that. For example, a novelization of a film is secondary canon due to simply being an expansion, so we can use feats from it if the parts we're using don't contradict the source material. They're still within the overall universe.
If you want to add feats from Amon or Hades, you can simply just make profiles for those. Hell, I'd even be willing to help.
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Kingcollapser
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That wasn’t a shot at you I was talking in general. I’ve already shown proof of the manga I listed being in the same continuity minus violence Jack. Jack absolutely scales to the other manga counterparts and is stronger than his version in the OG. The feats I listed don’t contradict each other and I’ve linked many scans showing that. A profile for Hades wouldn’t make sense since it’s still the same continuity from the OG and Lady. I’m not even using any anime feats these are coming strictly from the source material and are consistent. A profile for Amon wouldn’t make much sense either since that’s also the OG Devilman just with a different latter half of its manga.
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I also have many scans contradicting you, and you have posted numerous pieces of evidence that actually contradict your points or just prove nothing. It's mostly just head canon too, like assuming the Mao Dante anime leads into OG Devilman when that makes little sense.
No it doesn't. Most of Amon is set between a made up gap after Miki's death, or in the distance past. Devilman himself also has different feats, like tanking a nuclear bombardment. It literally starts off with Devilman melting part of the planet, so idk what to tell you.
Also, to be honest here, you haven't really proven that they're even in the same continuity. All you've contended are some of the contradictions between them.
No it doesn't. Most of Amon is set between a made up gap after Miki's death, or in the distance past. Devilman himself also has different feats, like tanking a nuclear bombardment. It literally starts off with Devilman melting part of the planet, so idk what to tell you.
Also, to be honest here, you haven't really proven that they're even in the same continuity. All you've contended are some of the contradictions between them.
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Kingcollapser
He/Him- 171
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I have multiple scans countering you. You even admitted to remembering some of your claims wrongly and you posted wrong information that is the opposite of what the manga(s) is showing.
This is the last episode of Mao dante. This is a link to The wiki. Go to the 2002 Anime section. The last Scene of Mao dante is a parallel to this scan from Devilman lady. Never mind the fact that Dante is already a character in the Manga.
“Amon: The Darkside of the Devilman is an alternate setting to the last chapters of the original Devilman manga. Where in the original, Devilman faces Satan after seeing his slain lover Miki Makimura's severed head, Amon sees Akira lose control of himself, and due to his sadness and depression from not being able to protect Miki, allows Amon to gain control of Akira and his powers again.” That’s straight from the wiki. Amon is just an alternative ending to the original manga. I remember him tanking those missiles, in that same fight it’s reveled that Amon sunk Atlantis. In Devilman Lady, Dante Mentions the disappearance of Atlantis and Mu. That’s a connection another between the two manga and Mu is a connection to God Mazinger.
I’ve shown multiple connections between the Devilman continuity and even Nagai’s whole manga universe. I linked Wikis, Videos, And scans from various manga that support my claims.
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On another, completely unrelated note, Vurava is referring to Demons as a collective when saying their power is equal to God's. He's not saying that he and Akira alone possess that level of ability.
My guy, you've been posting bullshit head canon this entire thread, like assuming that every single soul on Earth went randomly went through a dimensional gap to a non-existent universe (something that's never been done before, since the world in Saga was very much extant).
'He's a character in the manga.' He's also different characters in multiple versions of Devilman, including ones written by Go Nagai. Dante is just a name. It's like saying all Devilman manga are canon because Akira Fudo is a consistent character. In fact, if you want a better example, it's like saying God Mazinger and Getter Robo are canon just because groups called the Dinosaur Empire exist in them.
Secondly, Atlantis was not an advanced mega-city in Amon.
Lastly, he says 'some people do talk about', so that's not even proof within the universe of Devilman. Not only that, but this is after 2 timeline resets, so it wouldn't even support your point anyway.
If you even read God Mazinger, it also has a history that completely contradicts Devilman.
Also, the wikis and videos you've posted don't even really provide any evidence or sources, and aren't somehow evidence in and of themselves.
I admitted that I remembered one claim from Devilman Lady and something from Hades wrongly. Half the time, it doesn't even feel like you're actually reading my arguments.
My guy, you've been posting bullshit head canon this entire thread, like assuming that every single soul on Earth went randomly went through a dimensional gap to a non-existent universe (something that's never been done before, since the world in Saga was very much extant).
I've seen it and explained to you why it doesn't line up for the Mao Dante anime above the comment you're responding to. You've just posted sourceless wikia as if it's fact, and one scan that very easily could exist without Mao Dante (something that came out far afterwards and with no involvement from Go Nagai) being canonical.
'He's a character in the manga.' He's also different characters in multiple versions of Devilman, including ones written by Go Nagai. Dante is just a name. It's like saying all Devilman manga are canon because Akira Fudo is a consistent character. In fact, if you want a better example, it's like saying God Mazinger and Getter Robo are canon just because groups called the Dinosaur Empire exist in them.
It doesn't say alternative ending, it says alternative setting, which literally debunks your argument (or it would, anyway, if you gave something more substantial than an unsourced wiki article). It's an entirely different reality with different events (certainly not limited to the ending) and a history that completely conflicts with the original.
First of all, a city with the same name that is a common piece of literature doesn't confirm they're canon. Both can just have Atlantis. '[insert here] has the same name, so it's canon' still isn't an argument. I could also say the same thing about Mu, but that's much more obscure outside of Godzilla.
Secondly, Atlantis was not an advanced mega-city in Amon.
Lastly, he says 'some people do talk about', so that's not even proof within the universe of Devilman. Not only that, but this is after 2 timeline resets, so it wouldn't even support your point anyway.
You mean the thing that's not even apart of any other Mazinger series and has its own, vastly different version of Hades? How does this support your point (even though they don't actually confirm Mu exists in the chapter, anyway)?
If you even read God Mazinger, it also has a history that completely contradicts Devilman.
You've explained that Hades has Hades in it, and that some other series of Devilman have a descendant of a God called Hades. Cool, the latter has a connection, but the former is just a character.
And, I'm sorry, but half of what you've said just doesn't make sense. It's blatant canon welding, and mostly not even official sources.
Also, the wikis and videos you've posted don't even really provide any evidence or sources, and aren't somehow evidence in and of themselves.
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I originally came to see Devilman get the upgrade he deserved so I think we should settle with the low 2-C that was agreed on, and accept the creation of separate profiles for the other versions of Devilman which are higher or lower.
Was still looking forward to Devilman vs Dante being possibly fair lol
Was still looking forward to Devilman vs Dante being possibly fair lol
Kingcollapser
He/Him- 171
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- Thread starter
- #138
I Still Think it should Low 2-C possibly low 1-A is fair. God Not only Made Hell a 5th dimensional universe/dimension but he also created An unknown number of universes. Both Devilman and Satan scale to him.
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Kingcollapser
He/Him- 171
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- Thread starter
- #139
Dmc Dante? That’s a fair fight
Kingcollapser
He/Him- 171
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- Thread starter
- #140
I’d be happy to see more profiles for the other Devilmen from different universes
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That’s not 1-A and that’s fine you believe that but you can’t be stalling things, no reason to stop the upgrade because you think he can be higher, just argue that later after we change the things that are accepted so we can actually make progress
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That's fair, though 5-D is actually Low 1-C.
Tbf, I'm really the one stalling. I'll make my suggestions.
Kingcollapser
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My mistake, I meant to put 1-C not 1A. I’ve already added my reasons why in the original thread.
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So is the upgrade for low 2-C possibly low 1-C?
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Lol if he got upgraded to complex multi I was thinking DMC mainline dante yes
Kingcollapser
He/Him- 171
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- #146
Ah, unfortunately i don’t think there’s any feats that put his tier that high currently but It’s still a good fight imo. Two Half Demons with plenty of Hax.
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Just to double check again, were you gonna upgrade his speed too? And if yes, what was it to?
Kingcollapser
He/Him- 171
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- #148
He doesn’t have notable any speed feats in the OG that I can remember and In Lady he gains time Travel so I’m not sure where to place his speed but in some other manga he has good feats.
I added the scans to the thread but I’ll post them again here
Reacts to this laser not once but twice
Reacts to this photon laser and counter attacks
Uses his mouth beam to shoot himself back to earth
Devilman reacts to this kick from Cyborg 009
(Note: 009 can move ftl without his acceleration device)
Devilman clashes with 009 while he’s accelerating and they destroy this building
Devilman moves faster than 009 can see while 009 is in acceleration mode and kicks him through two buildings
Catches up to 009 and grabs his leg
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I don't know how the time travel is exactly shown but isn't time travel through pure speed like immeasurable?
Kingcollapser
He/Him- 171
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- Thread starter
- #150
He just spreads his wings and fly’s. He even traveled to the past via a character’s memory’s.
I believe so
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Well if this is true then I think that is immeasurable or at least infinite speed
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I think Asura was gonna write his suggestions and then changes should be able to be made right?
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We should probably get someone to calculate a few of these scans.
Kingcollapser
He/Him- 171
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- #154
Agreed
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I could probably do one or two of them, but does anyone else wanna do a few of them as well?
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Are we able to apply the agreed upon upgrades or is anything else needed?
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Well, what else do we have to go over? Or are we done?
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I think we should be done if we can get @ByAsura to unlock the pages but it depends on @Kingcollapser to add them
Kingcollapser
He/Him- 171
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- Thread starter
- #159
I’m willing to agree to disagree about the Timeline and settle for separate profiles or each Manga version of Devilman. There’s also different anime versions that can be added but they are Far weaker than their Manga counterparts
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Sorry, got lost in other revisions.
Here's my ideas.
Basically, Akira gets a pre-death | post-death key. I was thinking pre-hell | hell, pre-devilman lady | devilman lady, or something similar, but the former eliminates any discussion about timelines and is more accurate because Akira retained that level of power after his resurrection.
His pre-death key stays the same, but post-death becomes Universe level+, possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (Grew much stronger during his stay in Hell. Comparable to Satan, who resurrected Akira to assist him in fighting God)
Satan and Zennon are
Universe level+, possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (Part of the Demon Lord, who has power equal to God, who in turn created Hell, a separate 5-Dimensional space-time with a layered cosmology similar to Dante's Inferno—the lowest level of Hell, Cocytus, being separated from the rest of Hell by a trans-dimensional barrier)
I also plan to add citations.
Here's my ideas.
Basically, Akira gets a pre-death | post-death key. I was thinking pre-hell | hell, pre-devilman lady | devilman lady, or something similar, but the former eliminates any discussion about timelines and is more accurate because Akira retained that level of power after his resurrection.
His pre-death key stays the same, but post-death becomes Universe level+, possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (Grew much stronger during his stay in Hell. Comparable to Satan, who resurrected Akira to assist him in fighting God)
Satan and Zennon are
Universe level+, possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (Part of the Demon Lord, who has power equal to God, who in turn created Hell, a separate 5-Dimensional space-time with a layered cosmology similar to Dante's Inferno—the lowest level of Hell, Cocytus, being separated from the rest of Hell by a trans-dimensional barrier)
I also plan to add citations.
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