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They were protected by Chaldea's magnetic field and that's why they avoided the surface wiping
Iirc at least
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Destroying Nasuverse Earth is only 5-B, Moon Cell is only 4-B.
- Thread starter Estephano4243
- Start date
- Status
Iirc at least
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I see, I did forget that thing existed since its been awhile since I've visited base game FGO lol
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Fair enough lol, it's been several years at this point since it just poofed
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I don't keep up with JP version which is why I'm refusing to comment on those parts, I'm on LB 2 right now anyway lol
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That and they removed themselves from the time axis, yeah.
Which makes this argument even more funny because they are Rayshifting through history with another time axis.
While outside the time axis.
Also here's a statement that Rayshifting is a higher dimensional form of movement.
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There is also this particular part from Fate Extra CCC ma: “
Far Side of the Moon [Circumstances]
The setting of CCC.
If one thinks of the moon as having two sides, the side facing Earth is the Near Side, while the opposite...the side that cannot be observed from the Earth is the Far Side.
While Fate/EXTRA starts from the first floor of the Near Side and heads for the seventh floor ~ the core, CCC starts from the Far Side (no concept of floors). Though the path may differ, the end goal for both is the core of the Moon Cell.
The Far Side of the Moon is a place where data deemed unnecessary by the Moon Cell is kept, similar to a dumping ground.
It is imaginary number space that continuously takes in data categorized as malignant information――that which is nothing but harmful to humans as well as intelligent lifeforms in general.
The Far Side is territory so taboo that even the “Eye” in the core of the Moon Cell is forbidden to enter.
Data that have entered this place, after becoming engulfed in humanity’s malignance and losing sight of their purpose of existence, ultimately become deprived of meaning.
The Far Side can also be said to be an ocean that has amassed the pollutants that the Moon Cell accrues as it makes its observations.”
Other than that, the texture including the known universe does require a specific quote from 5.2, but other than that, I will see what I can look into.
Other than that, I think I should replied to a specific part of the OP’s points. Specifically the part that came from Tiamat’s Bio on NA.
Far Side of the Moon [Circumstances]
The setting of CCC.
If one thinks of the moon as having two sides, the side facing Earth is the Near Side, while the opposite...the side that cannot be observed from the Earth is the Far Side.
While Fate/EXTRA starts from the first floor of the Near Side and heads for the seventh floor ~ the core, CCC starts from the Far Side (no concept of floors). Though the path may differ, the end goal for both is the core of the Moon Cell.
The Far Side of the Moon is a place where data deemed unnecessary by the Moon Cell is kept, similar to a dumping ground.
It is imaginary number space that continuously takes in data categorized as malignant information――that which is nothing but harmful to humans as well as intelligent lifeforms in general.
The Far Side is territory so taboo that even the “Eye” in the core of the Moon Cell is forbidden to enter.
Data that have entered this place, after becoming engulfed in humanity’s malignance and losing sight of their purpose of existence, ultimately become deprived of meaning.
The Far Side can also be said to be an ocean that has amassed the pollutants that the Moon Cell accrues as it makes its observations.”
Other than that, the texture including the known universe does require a specific quote from 5.2, but other than that, I will see what I can look into.
Other than that, I think I should replied to a specific part of the OP’s points. Specifically the part that came from Tiamat’s Bio on NA.
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That statement seems to being referencing to a more higher dimensional travel method than that of Rayshift.
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Yes, it's referencing the existence of a form of travel that's even higher dimensional than it
That particular wording implies that rayshifting itself is higher dimensional, with this form of travel being at least 1 dimension higher
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Some correction as the text mentioned “pocket space” in 4 dimensional space to being specific.
Technically irl, the blackholes are kinda treated as 4 dimensional construct on a much smaller localized scale to being specific.
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I don’t mind the Rayshift shenanigans as it is a valid dimensional travel mechanic to begin with.
Also I played NA only so I ain’t that rusty with the lore in case of FGO at least.
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No, it's 4-D because it's done via manipulating INS.
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Space time not being inherently 4D? Technically I usually treated space time as 4D by default as that is usually the case and in the event it is higher than 4D, then I think it being a 5D dimensional universe or said 6D universe if it goes that far.
To make it so space time isn’t somehow 4D is kinda weird tbh.
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Yes I am aware, although I have to reword that a bit better as the bio did specifically say “4 dimensional pocket space” to being more accurate.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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the Mooncell's possibilities are literally real universes
Why is this still being debated upon
Gonna be honest, this is the equivalent of some non-VS Fate lore fans saying Planetary is the cap of the Gods due to the Da Vinci statement.
Therefore, I disagree vehemently with the OP due to reasons Paul, Crimson and Da Reaper have already stated.
Why is this still being debated upon
Gonna be honest, this is the equivalent of some non-VS Fate lore fans saying Planetary is the cap of the Gods due to the Da Vinci statement.
Therefore, I disagree vehemently with the OP due to reasons Paul, Crimson and Da Reaper have already stated.
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If I not mistaken and to being fair, it is mostly NPs that being capped rather than it being referred to the Gods IIRC.
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Actually Chaldea specifically is being protected by a machine called Chaldeas from the incineration of humanity. Also the fact that Chaldea and everyone inside of it are unaffected by changes in time (Incineration of humanity, Romani's sudden non existence, and humanity coming back from being incinerated) should already give the idea that Chaldea is also unaffected by the world getting nuked.
Nice catch, the fact that Avalon has a flow of time should all the more prove it's not a higher dimensional construct.
1. What did most of the evaporating is the attack's solar winds, not the attack's very potency itself.
2. The threat in Solomon Temple singularity is the lightbands traversing billions of years back which is why he first needed to nuke every moment of 3000 years of Earth.
You're really telling me I am incorrect when the passage straight up says, "The Umbral Star's spiritron cells, which run through their bodies, strengthen their very existence" ? I reckon the reason why being recorded slowly gets rid of their ability to slide is because it slowly undoes the strengthening the Umbral Star does.
You actually need a strong existence in order to rayshift hence why not everybody can do it. Also being on a different time axis especially in the context of Chaldea does not mean they're on a separate space-time continuum. For the entirety of FGO Part 1 the flow of time is distorted, Goetia created the singularities to distort time so that when he was going to nuke the Earth for every moment of 3000 years, the Earths' destruction from the past will not affect Earth from the present and future. Basically if he didn't distort time then the only energy he'll accumulate is from Earth's destruction in the past since there is no longer any energy to accumulate in the present and future since again Earth got nuked in the past.
Rayshifting allows the person to traverse through that distorted flow of time but not go through the walls of the space-time continuum. Hence also why it is extra risky for Fujimaru to rayshift to Solomon's Temple being straight up outside of space-time, and was only able to rayshift in and out of it through one specific point of the whole place.
That makes things worse, It went from storing simulations to only storing results. And so far the point still stands that those legit parallel space-times are not inside the Moon Cell.
Ok so basically..
Your words > text from a material book licensed and published by XSEED Games and Marvelous USA, inc
Is that what, "in essence, the universe has a finite amount of energy to spend maintaining each parallel world" means? literally straight up spoon fed to us "finite energy".
The recordings being explicitly about human history and only able to predict the future in most cases are limitations to the recordings. Human history is bound to end therefore those simulations have an end point. Predicting the future in most cases suggests it can't predict all which outright disregards the idea of it even having infinite possibilities inside.
You mean when Twice was just trying to shut down the Moon Cell which in turn also shuts down the simulations? Which also happens to be the context behind the whole "all parallel worlds will be eliminated" statement? Twice was literally only affecting the Moon Cell's simulations.
Going from sheer fact that the compiled events are addressed as "universe", it be pretty stupid if they were calling multiple space-times as a "universe". Also bringing up Nasu's words regarding his other works doesn't hold any weight given literally on the very first line of this passage we are told that this specifically is what the characters in Fate/EX meant by "parallel worlds". What's the point of specifying Fate/EX if it isn't even going to be different from the rest?
Trimmed events are trimmed branch timelines, compiled events are untrimmed branch timelines.
Also I renounce my words regarding Archimedes' sliding, he isn't going through straight up space-time continuums, he is actually just going through different branch of timelines. Also what's the purpose of bringing up Zelretch? he isn't a part of Fate/EX series so whatever "parallel world" statement there is about him obviously isn't supposed to be taken the same way "parallel world" statements in Fate/EX are taken.
What I am saying is that in Fate/EX the branching timelines are what is being addressed as "parallel worlds" despite not being actual parallel worlds as per the entirety of Fate's concept of parallel worlds, I only used the Illyaverse and Miyuverse example because the situation of those two worlds are the perfect examples of what can count as an actual legit parallel world as per Fate/EX's take on "parallel worlds".
I tried my best to make this part make sense xd
Goetia nuked Earth for every moment of 3000 years to accumulate enough energy that will allow his lightbands to traverse all the way back to when Earth was made.
Da Vinci straight up said the incineration of humanity destroyed the world
We know that Chaldea exists from a different time-axis so there should be no doubt as to why it is still standing despite the Earth getting nuked.
For some reason one-time brought up statements like 8D Moon Cell and 6D Avalon should be taken on face value but when a not-so-far-fetched "the world got destroyed" statement is brought it, no it's not true.
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I'll come back tomorrow cuz I am sleep
This will be the first time I won't be looking forward to waking up xd
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Don't bother, I'm sure the others here will destroy your arguments instantly
I can't believe we're seriously going back to "Nasuverse caps at 4-B" again
Does Space Ishtar and Kama just NOT exist to you???
I can't believe we're seriously going back to "Nasuverse caps at 4-B" again
Does Space Ishtar and Kama just NOT exist to you???
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I am not saying Nasuverse caps at 4B...
I am saying that the Moon Cell and Avalon arguments aren't what places characters to insane tiers.
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Time ain't automatically 4-D mate. If we have reason to believe otherwise we will believe otherwise. And Nasuverse has most definitely given us reason to believe otherwise.
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You wanna know the funny thing about all of your arguments? The Moon Cell would still be 2-A at least. Infinite universes.
Also, the only, and I mean the ONLY reason Nasuverse ever had 2-As is because we didn't know how the dimensions worked until an essay of a CRT was made to show that the dimensions fit our standards. And as such 6-D Avalon/Earth and 8-D at most Moon Cell are what we accept today.
At least 2-A Nasuverse is set in stone and there isn't a damn thing you can really do about it.
Also, the only, and I mean the ONLY reason Nasuverse ever had 2-As is because we didn't know how the dimensions worked until an essay of a CRT was made to show that the dimensions fit our standards. And as such 6-D Avalon/Earth and 8-D at most Moon Cell are what we accept today.
At least 2-A Nasuverse is set in stone and there isn't a damn thing you can really do about it.
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You are correct. If a better translation is made we will go with that one. The Japanese translators here have translated it differently, and in fact, mistranslation is quite infamous in regards to Fate, Shimousa is mistranslated also lol
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At this point I'm convinced nothing said here is going to convince you but here we go
2. There was another one that mentioned him punching a hole through the planet iirc, which is where the rating even comes from to begin with. And he didn't nuke Earth at every moment for 3000 years, he burned human history, humans, on the surface, which he wiped. Why would blowing up the planet get him energy when we're told its only the burning of history, he had no reason to just pop the planet from the start, and he didn't.
The explanation you gave here doesn't explain at all why being in a different time axis means its somehow the same exact spacetime either, you just explained Goetia's plan to accumulate energy from human history to rewind time
So suddenly, travling from outside the time axis to another one outside of the normal one is suddenly not going through the walls of space time, but only possible because Goetia was messing with the human order foundations?
"However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe, at set intervals, those extraneous worldsroutes (世界ルート, sekairu-to?) removed of the category of "routes characterized by survivability and stability" are culled (伐採, basai, lit. "cull" / "prune"), so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy."
So yeah, as I said, its the propagation, not the number, the text then goes on to say that it culls the worlds it does because they lack the ability to branch, as the outcomes are decided, so it culls them to not waste the energy of creating more dead worlds
Predicting the future in most cases doesn't mean it can't have infinite possibilities what. It just means it can't predict certain things such as, oh I don't know, actions related to Velber, which it explicitly can't even scan maybe. Maybe, just maybe, they included that line, in the game about Velber, because that's the unique case where it can't predict the future, unlike the Extra mats (where Velber isn't in) which never mentions this "in most cases" thing, and just outright says it makes definite predictions about everything and has now understood the workings of the planet and observes all things to be fair.
Them saying thats what Fate/EX means by parallel worlds means nothing when its the exact same rules across other works too, and Nasu straight up has a wog statement saying that rules work the same across entries. They aren't saying "this is how it works only in Fate/EX" so I'm not sure why you assume that. In fact, the mooncell having this weird version where everything is one universe makes even less sense when you look at the mats and statements which tell us that the Mooncell's processes are copied from the World's after it observed them.
Backtracking yikes
So now he's just going through different branches of a single timeline, and no statements besides Fate/EX ones (and only certain ones at that) matter because no other rules apply to these worlds, I'll just have to point you to my above questionings and arguments against this logic
Why on earth would she say that if she just saw one do that very thing
Yes, statements that are substantiated by the series by repeated explanations of higher dimensions should be taken at face value, and an interpretation of a statement, that is outright contradicted by literally everything, should not be taken as true
Still doesn't mean the Earth was blown up, something proven by the planet existing still
Or, maybe, just maybe, higher d things can be "affected by time" to make fictional stories work. Its also explicitly not affected by time as in our timelines btw, its disconnected from time which is why Merlin's able to watch and interact with us in different points in time than where he should be timeline wise
1. Okay, and? Even assuming it was the attack's solar winds this suddenly means it wasn't her full output authority despite it being said it was? This remark makes no sense.
2. There was another one that mentioned him punching a hole through the planet iirc, which is where the rating even comes from to begin with. And he didn't nuke Earth at every moment for 3000 years, he burned human history, humans, on the surface, which he wiped. Why would blowing up the planet get him energy when we're told its only the burning of history, he had no reason to just pop the planet from the start, and he didn't.
Yes I'm telling you that's incorrect when the passage then goes on to mention its because they aren't recorded. Your assumption of "recording undoes the strengthening" makes 0 sense because that means the mooncell could just repeatedly record Sefar until she goes away or is nerfed enough to be easily killed, rather than having to seal her in the Zero Dark. It's much easier to assume, as the text basically outright says, them not being recorded allows them to shift and being recorded gets rid of that ability, because its a privlege and normally against the mooncell's rules
It does mean that though lol. They're explicitly not in the same time axis as the rest of the timeline, and Chaldea is also not in the same time axis as the rest of the timeline or the singularities. Double barrier crossing action.
The explanation you gave here doesn't explain at all why being in a different time axis means its somehow the same exact spacetime either, you just explained Goetia's plan to accumulate energy from human history to rewind time
Wha
So suddenly, travling from outside the time axis to another one outside of the normal one is suddenly not going through the walls of space time, but only possible because Goetia was messing with the human order foundations?
No, it means that it has the simulations, and the light in the core that Twice mentioned is the results, I'm almost convinced you're purposely misreading whats being said at this point. Nothing you've said says that legit parallel space times aren't inside the mooncell without grossly misinterpreting this specific quote, disregarding the showings of them being there, etc
Not my words, the fact that the japanese text outright doesn't say what you're saying though, yes.
As I said, this line is not in the original text, here's what that part says when translated from the Japanese version
"However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe, at set intervals, those extraneous worldsroutes (世界ルート, sekairu-to?) removed of the category of "routes characterized by survivability and stability" are culled (伐採, basai, lit. "cull" / "prune"), so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy."
So yeah, as I said, its the propagation, not the number, the text then goes on to say that it culls the worlds it does because they lack the ability to branch, as the outcomes are decided, so it culls them to not waste the energy of creating more dead worlds
Assuming the recordings end the instant human history does, sure, they'd have an end point, this directly goes against the fact it was set up to watch the World, not just humans, but still. This means what though? The simulations ending and then being recorded means there aren't infinite because...?
Predicting the future in most cases doesn't mean it can't have infinite possibilities what. It just means it can't predict certain things such as, oh I don't know, actions related to Velber, which it explicitly can't even scan maybe. Maybe, just maybe, they included that line, in the game about Velber, because that's the unique case where it can't predict the future, unlike the Extra mats (where Velber isn't in) which never mentions this "in most cases" thing, and just outright says it makes definite predictions about everything and has now understood the workings of the planet and observes all things to be fair.
No, Twice explicitly wanted to end the outside world too, because it was a dead end and he hated jt. He was just going to end all the parallel worlds, ours and the mooncells as well, which we know is what would happen as per your own mats which say it affects the outside too.
Universe was originally Sekai there, World. The World is an overarching term in Nasu, which includes things like Gaia, Alaya, the entire multiverse, etc. Its not supposed to mean the universe has multiple timelines in it, it means The World, has multiple space times.
Them saying thats what Fate/EX means by parallel worlds means nothing when its the exact same rules across other works too, and Nasu straight up has a wog statement saying that rules work the same across entries. They aren't saying "this is how it works only in Fate/EX" so I'm not sure why you assume that. In fact, the mooncell having this weird version where everything is one universe makes even less sense when you look at the mats and statements which tell us that the Mooncell's processes are copied from the World's after it observed them.
So now he's just going through different branches of a single timeline, and no statements besides Fate/EX ones (and only certain ones at that) matter because no other rules apply to these worlds, I'll just have to point you to my above questionings and arguments against this logic
Destroy the world doesn't always mean popped the planet, in fact it rarely means that. Also, this is Da Vinci, miss "no Noble Phantasm could destroy the planet"
Why on earth would she say that if she just saw one do that very thing
Yes, statements that are substantiated by the series by repeated explanations of higher dimensions should be taken at face value, and an interpretation of a statement, that is outright contradicted by literally everything, should not be taken as true
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Tbf, the scan being shown is that of a guidebook that mentions Nasu as the supervisor…. That make it actually reliable.
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So is Shimousa to my knowledge.
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Last I checked, I thought we using the in game story for Shimosa, not a guidebook for that matter.
Also IIRC, ain’t there threads that actually use the English translation?
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That's ******* rude. At least respect his dedication.
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It's funny how at the same time we have a statement of moon cell having power source equal to the sun.
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Yeah, but there is the fact English Shimosa has been used.
One good example is being used in this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/minor-revision-for-musashi-and-kojiro.125984/
Specifically the scans used for immeasurable speed with specific characters.
Other than that, I should note they can correct errors for the translation. (The in game update sections has some mentions of corrections like the Xiang Yu’s skill being mistaken for invul, but gets corrected to invul pierce.)
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Just because something is officially translated don't mean is completely accurate (or even accurate at all), that's a common thing in general and there exist several examples.
Right now the first example I can think is the translation to spanish of Persona 5 Royal, in the official translation to spanish there are several errors that can vary from minor yet obvious things, for example, in english do to the grammar of the language a skill could be named Fire Ball, but in spanish that's grammatically incorrect do to the rules language, so the name in spanish would be Fire ball (actually it would be Bola de fuego but to understand the example I put it that way), in general things like titles/headlines just have capital letter in the first word, that's common sense to anyone actually know spanish and yet the official translations did that.
There are also things like translate phrases in ways that no person who speak spanish would say, Ryuji for example talk most of the game like a sort of old man or a character from a very old caricature, you will NEVER hear someone say in a real conversation something like 'Me piro vampiro' (In english it would mean I go vampire, a saying really old that you realistically could only hear in caricatures from the past century), yet the character say it several times in the game do to the translation, and many more absurd things like this.
If the translation based in the english version of the game ended like this, I think is pretty obvious that a translation from a much more complex language like japanese could end pretty bad. So just the argument of something be officially translated don't actually mean is a good translation, at all.
Right now the first example I can think is the translation to spanish of Persona 5 Royal, in the official translation to spanish there are several errors that can vary from minor yet obvious things, for example, in english do to the grammar of the language a skill could be named Fire Ball, but in spanish that's grammatically incorrect do to the rules language, so the name in spanish would be Fire ball (actually it would be Bola de fuego but to understand the example I put it that way), in general things like titles/headlines just have capital letter in the first word, that's common sense to anyone actually know spanish and yet the official translations did that.
There are also things like translate phrases in ways that no person who speak spanish would say, Ryuji for example talk most of the game like a sort of old man or a character from a very old caricature, you will NEVER hear someone say in a real conversation something like 'Me piro vampiro' (In english it would mean I go vampire, a saying really old that you realistically could only hear in caricatures from the past century), yet the character say it several times in the game do to the translation, and many more absurd things like this.
If the translation based in the english version of the game ended like this, I think is pretty obvious that a translation from a much more complex language like japanese could end pretty bad. So just the argument of something be officially translated don't actually mean is a good translation, at all.
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While this is true, it doesn’t mean all official translations can’t been used especially if it happens to being supported by a author of all people that wrote the fictional works they made for that matter.
Other than that, I am pretty much neutral to this overall.
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I mean in Nasu the Sun Gods of each Pantheon are generally the strongest so it wouldnt be insane to assume that the Nasu Sun is probably Tier 1 lol.
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I don't say that they can't be used, just that one can't believe in them blindly, if there are reasons to doubt the reliability of the translation then is needed to confirm by checking the raws and others translations that there could be.
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I hate Nasuverse lore.
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So does everyone else. Got anything relevant to comment?
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He seems not interested
Anyway this thread is pointless at this point, so a closure is necessary
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This thread isn't pointless (for now). OP is still preparing answers.
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Checks out
- Status
