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I really don't remember the breathing of thunder with electrical property.
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Demon Slayer: Pretty big downgrade
- Thread starter Jackof_noTrades068
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Yeah actually, for the Hantengu one, I can buy it, but does the guy Zenitsu fights even show any destruction of that sort? Especially since his electricity is black which would imply it's not, you know, real.
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Anyway @LIFE_OF_KING could you reply to this? I'd like to find a version of the father spider feat we can agree on.
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There is the possibility of using the other hand
Even if they are a little bit distant from each other it is possible to make a pixelscale. The maximum distance they are is 30 centimeters considering the position of the sword. Visually is good to measure
I measured the diameter of the crater fragments
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It's somehow smaller than the other one despite the difference in position so it makes me think there's some warped perspective going on here. Perhaps we could find the ratio of width and height of a closed fist by measuring our own hands and use that?
Sure, that could work.
I see, good call.
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Muzan obliterating half a building with a tentacle whip should give good results too.
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Wait, Father has a canonical height. Let's use this
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It's not about the Breath of Thunder, it's about the Breath of Thunder infused with a Blood Demon Art that Kaigaku is using.
Well, Kaigaku's attacks crack and burn flesh and if you accept Hantengu being able to use lightning, then we have a precedent for Blood Demon Arts being capable of having something like that. Is the electricity being black enough to consider the notion refuted?
Isn't there still Doma's statue even if Zenitsu's feat gets revised?
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Ratio between my fist's width and height is 0.847x. Average hand width is 8.89 cm (which teaches me i have really small hands it seems) x 0.847 = 7.529 cm, average height is 175 cm, 320 : 175 = 145 = 1.828 x 7.529 = 13.763 cm. That sound good?
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Zenitsu was definitely not electrocuted in these scene. There is no indication
Also, these lightning are cutting, which is impossible for a normal lightning
The problem is scale from thermal energy to energy of impact without a solid energy system as in Jujutsu or DB
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I’m pretty sure (even though the Doma statue already got discussed a little and agreed upon in this thread) using KE the statue would be around High 8-C
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Didn’t Douma erupt it from the water though before Inosuke and Kanao could react?
So you could actually use the Buddha’s total mass and it’s height for that
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You cannot use KE for something that is being frozen. You are just changing the air from a gaseous state to a solid state, you don't use KEfor that
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If it was only being frozen and nothing more it probably wouldn’t have broken the wooden floors as it was created but would’ve rather formed around the wood and caused no damage.
But so whatever then
So I guess with the Doma statue is either scaling off temp change or fodder and most are siding with the former
So I’ll wait for them to give more thoughts on your take.
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Just an additional point: Breath of Thunder imitates lightning nigh-perfectly, causing the air to vibrate just by initiating a stance and creating the sound of thunder with the user's footsteps. Let's not forget that its first form is described to be akin to lightning ripping through the air
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Doma's ice statue has already been discussed just yesterday, so I'm not sure why there is a problem with that now. It has been established that the strength of a demon correlates with that of their Blood Demon Art and that they get stronger through eating humans or Muzan's blood.
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Just because I've conceded on the ice statue thing doesn't mean others can't have their issues regarding it, eh.
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It still would be helpful for the purposes of a discussion if they actually said their part yesterday when the discussion was going on or where referencing arguments that they agree or disagree with. It would certainly make the whole exchange more coherent and would prevent simple repeats.
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I recall Tanjiro thinking that he heard the sound of thunder on Natagumo and in the Infinity Train after Zenitsu performed his first form.
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Thinking that he heard thunder just means Zenitsu Broke the sound barrier
But I also vaguely remember a “like lightning ripping through the air” kind of statement
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That statement would interest me but since you only remember it vaguely you probably don't remember where you came across that.
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I mean, that would imply Natagumo Zenitsu is already MHS+ which isn't really the case. Besides, they also mistook Tengen's explosions for thunder at some point.
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The neck being stronger than the attack power is not a rule of the verse, it was never said. There are cases where blood technique is vastly superior than the durability, I can sentence as an example Kyogai, who have stronger attacks than Tanjiro's and was even said to be able to kill him with a simple movement, but had his neck easily cut by Tanjiro. Therefore, Kyogai's techinique >> Tanjiro's attacks >>>> Neck durability. Rui said something like "My neck is more durable than my threads!", if this really was a general rule among all demons he would have said something like "A demon's neck is more powerful than own techniques!". Akaza for example is also capable of destroying his own neck.
Energy to create is logically stronger than the energy to attack in this case. You are comparing energy from a thermal feat to an impact energy. So we are assuming that this karate attack has the same power to create the whole body? It is possible for Doma to be 8-B via ice manipulation/environmental destruction, but physically doesn't seem right to me
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Sound Breathing is derived from Thunder Breathing, so that doesn't appear entirely out of place to me. I agree with you that it wouldn't make sense Zenitsu to be MHS+ on Natagumo though.
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I mean that just reinforces the idea that it's just a sonic boom they're hearing.
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Kyogai was said to have stronger attacks than Tanjiro? It's one thing for his attacks to be able to kill Tanjiro since that is a given for pretty much any fight that is a serious challenge but I'd like you to provide a scan for Kyogai's attacks being stronger than Tanjiro's. Rui made a point for himself specifically since Tanjiro was trying to cut his neck after failing to do so with his threads. That doesn't exactly exclude the idea of the same or something similar applying to other demons and does in fact set a precedent for it. Akaza destroying his own neck isn't exactly much of a proof considering that all demons can control their own body to some degree and that he was clearly throwing multiple blows at himself.
The energy to create would still denote the strength of the Blood Demon Art and if the strength of the Blood Demon Art and the physical strength of the Demon have the same source, then that has its implications if there are no contradictions. Kanao was also specifically referring to the technique being massive when she commented on being surprised that he had still that much strength remaining, so it's mere creation is definitely a significant sign of his remaining power at this point.
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I wasn't denying that. All I said was that Tengen's explosion reminding someone of thunder makes sense considering what his Breath style is derived from. That's all. Doesn't change that it would be interesting to know where that “like lightning ripping through the air” statement comes from if it really exists.
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I edited the comment beacause this, I got confused about that. But anyway, it doesn't change anything, Tanjiro's attack potency is comparable to his durability, if not greater. Tanjiro for example is capable of being hit by Demon Spider Father who has attacks that is stronger than Tanjiro and Insouke, so it's not impossible to say that durability > Ap. Also, if Tanjiro's AP was comparable to the Kyogai's blood technique he would be able to cut the attacks easly, since he has shown that able to keep up.
This proves nothing, the demons have completely different characteristics from each other. Some are spiders, some manipulate sound, some manipulate fire, etc. It is not possible to define assimilations without some form of support.
I don't really remember anything being said like "Demons can vary in durability", and it's not written in the profiles, so I guess it doesn't really exist. The "multiple blows" were in different areas, if you see the scene you will notice that there are only 2 blows hitting the head, probably one was in the head and the other in the neck .
You are confusing thermal energy with impact energy, impact energy you scale, thermal energy does not. In thermal energy the concept is very different. You are changing the gaseous state to the solid state, this is based on temperature. With thermal energy he is creating a structure that with GPE doesn't exceed 8-C, if he can attack with thermal energy he wouldn't need to create something, he could just... attack normally. Proof that thermal energy not scale is for example when Doma freezes Kanao's body, that is thermal energy, but this works more like just Hax than ap. Kanao is impressed with the energy because previously Doma only created ice flowers, so to create a giant structure even when weakened is really impressive
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Tanjiro didn't get directly hit since it was his sword that made contact with the tree trunk and he blunted his eventual fall with a technique. Getting thrown into the air doesn't usually deal that much damage unless you collide with a solid object. Kyogai's claw attack isn't something that you can simply cut. It's basically invisible and travels through the air. There wouldn't be much of a point in even trying to cut it instead of dodging it, especially since Kyogai is generating a new one every time he hits the drum on his navel. Also slashing attacks like with claws or claw-like attacks in this case tend to have more leeway with the damage they can inflict since they cover less surface area compared to blunt force attacks.
"While the durability of a Demon’s body is inconsistent and can be hurt by weaker foes, their necks are their most durable body part and can tank attacks from characters who are comparable to their AP"
This quote is the justification for the durability rating on nearly every demon profile we have on the wiki. Feel free to check that yourself. At the beginning of Tanjiro and Giyu's fight against Akaza in Chapter 147 Tanjiro thought about how he needs to at least cut Akaza's arm since there was no way that he would be able to get his head otherwise. I'd also like to point out that I've referred to the demon's Body Control which is listed on all of their profiles and not to variances in their durability. I'm pretty sure that I'm seeing hits coming from behind Akaza as well, also the sheer amount and scale of the attacks doesn't really allow for one to say for sure that most of them had no effect on his neck specifically.
Wouldn't the thermal energy still be coming from the Blood Demon Art? Said energy would therefore be derived from Doma eating humans and receiving blood from Muzan like his strength in general is. So, what sort of difference does that make exactly? Well, Doma's Blood Demon Art revolves around Ice Manipulation, so it's natural that he would rely on Ice Manipulation. At the time Doma was beginning to fall apart due to Shinobu's poison, so a direct confrontation would have been needlessly risky for him at the end of the fight. A giant obstruction like his statue is a more reasonable response by comparison. Besides, it was a last-ditch effort on Doma's part according to Kanao. You've already pointed out yourself that Doma freezing Kanao is more hax than AP, so that doesn't really prove or disprove anything when it comes to AP. Said instance of hax also provides a reason for why he doesn't just attack "normally". Also, Kanao was commenting on the amount of strength he had left not energy. That's at least how it is in the translation that I looked up. If you have a translation that says something else, feel free to share that.
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Im back. Why took me so long? laziness and school
Yes, he defended himself and came out practically intact, what does that disprove that his durability is high? Especially considering that the arm will take much of the impact of the tree, the sword cannot support itself. In addition, Tanjiro also survived an attack by Demon Hand, who currently has AP comparable to him. So no, the durability is not immensely less than the attack potency, at least it is comparable.
The attack travels in the air and cuts things it touches, so it is tangible. The attack doesn't ignore durability or anything like that, it's simply a pinched wind attack
Yes, my point about Tanjiro not cut the attacks is useless and dumb
This is literally irrelevant. It just says that the neck is the most durable part of the body, nothing less and nothing more. And I'm also arguing that thermal energy =/= attack energy, which makes it really useless
Okay... and?
Attack on the back
If Akaza attacked several times and in the scene of the attack it is shown that it was the whole body that was hit, how do you want to say that he used several blood techniques on his own neck? The whole body was affected, if you want to follow this logic your previous point is nullified
Because thermal energy is more like to hax than attack potency. If Doma is able to attack with 8-B energy normally with his movements, why did he need to create a 9-A structure to defend him? It just doesn't make sense. You are assuming that a karate attack from a 13-meter statue has the same energy as a movement that lowers the temperature of the environment and causes the area to change from a gaseous to a solid state. Using the logic "Doma is City Block level+ and has created a Small Builindig structure to defend himself" is just like you are using a gun, and instead of shooting you throw the gun itself to hurt people
Kanao and Inosuke had difficulty against the 9-A structure, so they are 9-A, correct? If yes, it just helps the point. If Doma could attack with power energy equal to thermal energy with one simple move he could kill them both with one move.
The point is that changing the temperature is hax, not attack potency. When Doma froze Kanao she didn't take damage, but she had her temperature changed. If you calculate the thermal energy of this scene you will get 9-A, but her muscles were simply frozen and not broken
Saying "Wow, he has a lot of energy even when weakened" means nothing. Kanao probably doesn't even know what thermal energy is for her to be referring to this..
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I'm not saying that Tanjiro has low durability but I'm pointing out that there are several factors which make the damage less than what Tanjiro would have taken if the tree trunk simply hit him directly and he hadn't had the opportunity to blunt his fall. I'm perfectly fine with Tanjiro having durability comparable to his Attack Potency but you were using the spider father demon as potential evidence for his durability being higher than his Attack Potency which was something I didn't agree with. As for the Hand Demon, the attack sent Tanjiro flying towards a tree destroying his warding mask and rendering him temporarily unconscious, so while he isn't immensely inferior to it, it isn't something he can take without any problems.
Kyogai's claw attack doesn't seem more tangible or cuttable than regular air to me. Even if you were to cut it, I don't think that this would do anything that would actually help you in a fight though you already conceded how that point doesn't amount to much. On a side note, I'd prefer it if you didn't ridicule your own points like that. Also, I'm not saying that the attack ignores durability. It's a basic fact of physics that energy spread out on a smaller surface area is more likely to penetrate than energy spread out over a larger surface area. This is the case for a claw attack compared to a punch. It also happens to be the reason why the sharpness of a blade matters.
You made an argument about Kyogai's claw attack being superior to his neck durability when the durability justification that is used for the demons would pretty much say that the neck durability is comparable instead. So, yeah it does have some relevance and Tanjiro's statement in the fight against Akaza backs it up.
I'm not saying that Akaza exclusively targeted his neck but numerous attacks that cover fairly large parts of the body with enough force to rip it apart are unlikely to have no effects on the neck. Besides, you were trying to use Akaza attacking himself as a point for him having attacks superior to his neck durability when his durability justification would dictate that it is comparable just like with Kyogai.
The OP has this calculation and you've linked this calculation and you are saying that they are 9-A? If you believe that they are 9-A, then you can argue for that and try to have them downgraded to that level but until you get something like that accepted that isn't going to work as an argument. You've also pointed out the hax that comes with the Ice Manipulation and Doma has shown that he is capable of creating ice structures just as strong as he himself is with his Crystalline Divine Child technique, so you cannot reasonably put a limit on how strong said creations could possibly be with their theoretical strength based on size or structure nor can you say that it wouldn't make sense for him to use ice structures in combat.
I specifically pointed out the word strength being used. I'm not sure why that isn't in your quote from me. According to Wikipedia, terms related to thermal energy were already being established in the year 1847, so Kanao from the Taisho period in the 20. century who presumably received some degree of education through Shinobu and Kanae might indeed have heard about thermal energy.
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Didn't he take the lethal dosage of a poison that would kill a normal demon 700 times over? He created that statue in order to buy time in order to recover and as a means to shield himself while he was doing so.
Also, Blood Demon Arts are manifested using a demon's blood, the same blood which grants them their physique and regeneration. Like in the case of Rui, the threads he created from his Blood Demon Art are literally made from his cells and blood but yet his body is still stronger than them. In the case of Daki as well, her sashes could be cut by Tanjiro, but when it comes to the sash her neck transforms into, he couldn't slice it at all. Hantengu too, his clones which are his Blood Demon Art could be easily decapitated by Tanjiro, but when he tries to do so for the main body, he once again couldn't. Also, Giyu could slice Akaza's shockwave Blood Demon Art will Lull, but he couldn't slice his neck
In short, Blood Demon Arts are weaker than the demon it belongs to
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You've brought up some points that I haven't thought of but I'd still like to point out that the example with Hantengu might not exactly be appropriate since the emotion clones are each one-fourth of Zohakuten.
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If you admit that durability is comparable to AP, there is nothing to discuss here. Literally you admitted that I was correct
You admitted that AP is comparable to durability and we know that Kyogai can kill Tanjiro with one move/attack. So Kyogai's attack is superior to Tanjiro's attack who is capable to one shot Kyogai
You are messing up your own point
I never said it has no effect on the neck. I'm just saying that blood techniquer can destroy the user's own neck.
This is a revision, the goal is to change what is wrong in the profiles. If there is no statement saying that neck is stronger than AP, we cannot assume that for all demons
Interpret better. Saying they are 9-A was just an example
There is a difference. I am calculating the gravitational potency of the statue, which is possible and very simple. Calculate the energy of temperature change is hax, calculate the gravitational energy is impact energy. This is because if you have a statue on top of your body, you will die and have your body completely destroyed (which is gravitational power). Now if it is thermal ernegy you would just freeze, and take no damage (In the sense of a destroyed body and atc)
Yes, that still doesn't prove that she knew what thermal energy is, especially with the formula we use. The formula we use is extremely specific and exact, which has 3 steps. It is impossible for Kanae to think this instantly without some evidence
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I was refuting your line of thought of Tanjiro having durability far superior to his Attack Potency because of the spider father demon. I'm not admitting that you are right, I was clarifying what I was arguing for which means that you've misunderstood me. My argument was never Tanjiro having low durability and I'd like you to acknowledge that.
Having durability comparable to your Attack Potency doesn't mean that you cannot be killed by attacks from those that are comparable. There are several vital areas and organs that need to be taken into account and given that Kyogai's claw attack basically rips you apart you would definitely have reason to worry. Pretty much anyone can kill someone comparable to themselves with a cutting attack they happen to land if provided with the means to do such an attack (like for example a knife or sword).
Akaza being able to destroy his own neck doesn't exactly disprove his neck having comparable durability since he was clearly not doing so casually or noticeably holding back. Even if it was technically part of one technique, he used a flurry of punches. Do you believe that the necks of demons are weaker than than their Attack Potency? What would you even scale their durability to at this point? Hasn't it been already mentioned that both the strength of their Blood Demon Art as well as their own physical strength is derived from them eating humans and receiving blood from Muzan? Why would that not apply to the neck, especially when it has been consistently shown that stronger demons have more durable necks?
If 9-A was just an example, then it was a downright horrible one. That's all I have to say to that point.
So, in your opinion thermal energy is nothing but pure hax and cannot be used for scaling? Well, in that case it doesn't scale to Doma's Blood Demon Art's Attack Potency even though it's the exact thing from which said energy comes from and Doma himself doesn't scale on a physical level since the thermal energy apparently doesn't come from him eating humans or receiving blood from Muzan despite those things being the sources of his power. Well, Kanao is obviously not going to make mental calculations in such a tense situation but she still made note of the creation of the statue as a feat that demonstrates his strength. Since she isn't exactly an uneducated idiot and the manga made a point to show us that line of thought from her that has to count for at least something.
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What are the conclusions here so far?
Also:
@Dragonmasterxyz @DemonGodMitchAubin
What do you think about this?
Also:
@Dragonmasterxyz @DemonGodMitchAubin
What do you think about this?
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We're working on what feats are usable or not, I also have to get to calculating some early series stuff.
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