Debate regarding revisions of character Profiles, tiers, etc.

[Andromedant]

I want to debate the admins of this site who think many fallacious things. If this community wants to avoid getting criticized further, I suggest the top debaters of this site or those who deal with the formatting decisions of this site back up their points.

Can be any of these topics-

1. Why Kid Buu is clearly multi-solar system to galaxy level; ie why DB Kai is canon.

2. Why Thanos is Multiversal in Base.

3. Why Alien X is Multiversal.

4. Why Android 18, Basil, Ribrianne, etc are not Universal.

I will take all comers. https://discord.gg/B64whk

Ask for Lillium. I'll debate you on a coordinated time.

Back up your formatting, or well, you'll see.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Regarding 18 and the others. We are planning on revising them in the coming weeks. So you can mark that off your list.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

You're also making the mistake of assuming we care about what others say about us. If you disagree with us then post your evidence here. Arguing elsewhere will change nothing.

 

[Webcamparrot]

The proper way to enact these changes on the site is to create a Content Revision Thread regarding the topic with facts and reasoning to back it up. Then the community discusses the validity of the arguments and whether they should be implemented on the profiles. We actually do this all the time. Every profile on this site is essentially a work in progress after all as it's impossible to perfectly maintain and discuss all of them at all times.

 

[Antvasima]

We are also not interested in being "debaters", or in public challenges. This is a wiki, not a forum. The staff do their best to evaluate threads that bring up evidence for different upgrades or downgrades, and they get accepted or rejected accordingly. That is all.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

We aren't 100% accurate as that is impossible. No one is 100% when you discuss vs debates. People try to assume they are when they aren't. To be blunt this "challenge" you are sending us is a waste of your time and ours.

 

[Antvasima]

In addition, we are not a monolith of uniform opinion, more like a big mess of conflicting viewpoints, with different people being responsible for the statistics of different profiles, and having expertise in different areas.

We also do not respond well to threats or chest-thumping competitions.

 

[Antvasima]

And as Dragonmasterxyz alluded to, we have over 745000 visitors and 22 million page views a month at this point, and the popularity is constantly increasing rapidly, so the vast majority think that we are doing a good job.

We cannot try to please everybody, due to a few hundred people who spend far too much time attacking us, just do our best to evaluate different topics, monitor for vandalism, and keep things neat and tidy.

In addition, you would have to start separate content revision threads for each topic, but if no people who are knowledgeable about the subject are available at the time, they will most likely not lead anywhere.

 

[Antvasima]

And frankly, we are too overworked already to keep dealing with people like you.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well two of his topics deal with Dragon Ball....so that will be popular by default. One is Marvel I believe? That will likely get some attention. Ben 10 is meh....

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

• Ant drops a mike and walks off*

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Marvel is so insanely inconsistent in terms of powerscaling that it is near impossible to make any sense of, which is why I am extremely tired of dealing with such topics.

Given how busy I am with many other tasks, I also do not have much time available to waste on them.

 

[Andromedant]

Webcamparrot: Yet, whenever I see anyone else do so. Ant uses appeal to authority and says "Oh, well this person doesn't agree with this so this shouldn't be used" and whenever he gets disproven he closes a topic. So, yeah, we all know that doesn't work.

Ant, we both know you use other people's own "agreements" to justify if a calc or a feat should or should not be used, and whenever you get disproven, you decide to close the topic because you are unable to back up your points. I've seen you do that against SEVERAL people. I will present my evidence as long as you don't close the topic or try to nitpick or get upset at me spitting hard facts. Or, if you're going to abuse your mod powers and CANNOT back up your reasoning as to why a character should not be revised, then any of you are welcome to debate me on Discord where your powers are null, and all that you'll have is your own debating etiquette.

Trust me, this site gets enough criticizing as it gets. I am merely trying to fix that. It will only get worse because people will know the people who maintain this site can't even pass through an entire debate or are unwilling to back up their points.

So, if I bring up my counterarguments, maybe you should not abuse your mod powers or use appeal from authority or popularity. Fallacies have no place in revisions.If you can manage that, then we can have a respectable discussion. Capisce?

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

its better to give evidence so we can discuss on it. So do you have some to back it up though for the DBS one yeah its likely we will revise those once super actually ends

 

[Antvasima]

Also, we cannot repeat arguments brought up long ago in different discussion threads on command. If you want to know what lead to the decisions to scale different characters in different ways, then search the forum topics for the characters linked at the bottom of their profiles, and do some research on your own.

 

[Webcamparrot]

Since you are responding to me directly I have to disagree. Ant almost never directly gets involved with CRTs and is actually really neutral regarding them. We are all very lucky to have an Admin like Ant who is relatively unbiased and who manages to run such a tight ship. I think you are misunderstanding the situation. some topics are debated to death and get banned because we get tired of debunking them. Excluding those if you have an argument and the community disagrees or has counter arguments that's too bad your argument wasn't good enough. Honestly it seems to be more that you don't like that people disagree with you than anything.

 

[Andromedant]

I have done my research. You have done the aforementioned things whenever others try to disprove the flaws in your profiles. If you cannot defend it, what good are you in trying to counter it? Get your most competent debaters and I will make them see why these profiles and tiers are wrong. THEN, you can use their word as your appeal to authority for said changes.

 

[Andromedant]

@Webcamparrot.

Ant could not disprove several people and had to close topics or use appeal to authority. That is not debunking, that is dodging. I have PLENTY of evidence to prove my points. So, as I said. I can present my evidence and have a respectful discussion if you do not close the topic or use said fallacies.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

If you're confident enough that you think you can take on and outdo this site's best debaters, then make Content Revision Threads, where you can have a public debate open for all to see.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Funny. You say you did you research yet.

1) You haven't even attempted a CRT.

2) Accuse Ant of closing thread where people disagree with him.

3) Lack evidence of such threads.

4) Clearly haven't paid attention to the things Ant has done this year alone.

You say you have done research, but it sounds more like you are going by ear.

 

[Andromedant]

@Soldier Blue

Which I have no problem with doing as long as your mods don't abuse their powers or use said fallacies. Which, I mean, I've seen happen several times

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Webcamparrot.

Ant could not disprove several people and had to close topics or use appeal to authority. That is not debunking, that is dodging. I have PLENTY of evidence to prove my points. So, as I said. I can present my evidence and have a respectful discussion if you do not close the topic or use said fallacies.

Make the CRT. I will make sure no one closes it.

 

[Antvasima]

Actually I close threads when they keep going in circles and I have no time and energy to deal with them.

I spend at least 8 hours every day of the week managing lots of different tasks in this wiki, recurrently more, and do not have the luxury to spend even more time repeating myself about the same topics over and over.

Also, I do not tend to be involved in deciding most character statistics, except Marvel Comics, as I am one of very few ppeople here knowledgeable about it, so I am forced to do so, but even there I usually let Matthew decide.

My main function in this wiki is to monitor for vandalism, keep things organised, and clean up profiles. That's it.

 

[Andromedant]

@Dragonmasterxyz

Oh, I can give you plenty of evidence. Don't worry about it.

Once I do, let's see what excuses you guys will give.

I'll be back on later and then we can carry this on.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Oh and please make sure they aren't circular arguments that go nowhere for hours upon end. Don't show threads that show that you were just being a brick wall. Please don't show threads that are repeated topics that we have in our rules. Don't want those posts to bite you.

 

[Antvasima]

You wouldn't happen to be that guy who blamed any problems he had with this site on me, and spent 7 months uploading thousands of **** videos in my name?

You sound much like he did in his private messages to me.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Which I have no problem with doing as long as your mods don't abuse their powers or use said fallacies. Which, I mean, I've seen happen several times

As Antvasima said, we usually only close threads which keep going around in circles. We then go on to make staff discussion threads of the issues, with highly trusted and knowledgeable non-staff being allowed to speak. And then it gets settled.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Drop ya attitude man and be nice about it. Ya obviously allowed on disagreeing or even thinking this website is literally cesspool of trash just do not act like yadoing now.

While ya have litterally no good reason or while beingwithout any provocation no less man.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

^^^

Just Make a CRT thread if you disagree, if you have so much confidence in your debating ability then you should have no problem with creating a thread and debating peacefully and maturely

 

[Antvasima]

Also, this is not how revisions happen in this wiki. You have to follow our conventions to get anything done.

In any case, we are not following your orders, or intimidation tactics.

We have a system that works well for us, and we are sticking to it.

I do not think that I was responsible for the Ben 10 scaling, but if you have evidence (other than the offhanded Twitter reply) for higher statistics, we are perfectly willing to upgrade Alien X.

Similarly, I let the rest of the staff handle the scaling of Dragon Ball, and most other fictions, but we tend to prefer to use the original manga canon to that of adaptions. I also think that there were various divergences between Kai and Super, such as Frieza's time in Hell, but I do not remember well, as it has been a long time, and I have been busy with several thousand tasks since then. That said, if you have new information, we are usually willing to listen.

The only exception would be multiversal base Thanos. I have asked Matthew if we should upgrade him to 4-A, but to scale him from Galactus, the Phoenix Force, and Celestials would be massive plot-induced stupidity outliers, due to some of the Marvel writers having no idea what they are doing in this regard. It would be like scaling Cyclops and Frankenstein's Monster to Dormammu, due to beating him up, and quite a lot of similar incidents.

It would also completely mess up our scaling, as plenty of other superhero characters would scale from Thanos.

 

[Dark649]

Agree with Ant and the others.

 

[Antvasima]

It should be noted that I have also been very frustrated about that the site is not more reliable than it is, but without me around to monitor for vandalism every day, and the staff to evaluate content revision threads, it would have been far far worse.

The wiki does not have its limitations because of the staff, but in spite of their massive efforts in this regard. We are all trying our best to help out.

In addition, everything at this site is a work in progress. It is gradually getting better bit by bit, so our patience seems to be paying off in that regard.

 

[Antvasima]

As for the "bring me your best" boasting, which completely misreads how this wiki works, most of the staff members are currently very busy with schoolwork, and do not have the time to participate, nor can we just order everybody to weigh in in some kind of free-for-all mess.

However, if you want input from people knowledgeable about a subject, you can check the Knowledgeable Members List for staff members to contact about Ben 10, Marvel Comics, and Dragon Ball, respectively.