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Death Battle Season Ten Discussion Thread (1) (All-time Death Battle Spoilers Alert)

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Doggo said:
The Force can be compared to senjutsu which counter TSO, Vader affects them with TK. I think Ligthsabers have statements of having heat compared to a star on the g1 blog

I agree with everything else you said tho.
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Mathematic estimates of a lightsaber's heat based upon performance in cinema (cutting through blast doors and cleanly cleaving rock in seconds) place it within the 8k-25k degrees Celsius range. Amaterasu performs similarly. I would assume they're close in temperature given similar feats.

Also, pretty sure the Force can't be equalized to senjutsu because it's mechanically different--while both permeate the physical world in their respective canons, senjutsu chakra exists in other dimensions, whereas the Force doesn't exist in places like hyperspace, or at least, Force users can't sense others in hyperspace, IIRC? Also, Force doesn't turn you into a statue if you can't wield its power properly. Force is best equated to standard chakra.
 
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So Death Battle often gets criticized for when they get a match “wrong” or when they have bad research, and even people who say not to look to Death Battle for matchup results because of certain outcomes. But how often would you guys say Death Battle gets it right? Personally I think they’re pretty accurate like 85% of the time which is pretty good. And is it ever viable to cite Death Battle in a vs debate to you?
 
A_Stoned_Orc said:
His "dark dimension form" was just a vision, anyway, I thought.
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Not exactly, its effectively his Force Spirit that he projected while in a meditative trance, its a manifestation of his connection to the Dark Side of the Force
A_Stoned_Orc said:
Without context as to the layers (I at least gave context for Obito's layered resistance), it just sounds like Force mind manip accomplishes the same things basic genjutsu does, which doesn't really help your argument.
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1. Yes, there are layers. Mind hax resistance is something that even beginner Force users learn as a basic application of the Force, which is called Thought Shield, its so basic that even non-Jedi and non-Sith are able to learn this, like some diplomats have done. As they become more skilled in the Force their resistance to these techniques becomes stronger, as well as being able to resist stronger, more advanced applications of mind manipulation that i will explain below. Vader's mind resistance is superior to people who can resist mind hax that can manipulate the mind of an entire planet of master force users, as well as people like Revan who was able to fight off an entire council of Jedi masters trying to mind control him. On top of this, Vader has specific measures that let him subconsciously recognize and break out of illusions that involve Padme specifically as that is something that people in his own universe have tried against him multiple times.

2. Yes, the most basic application of mind manipulation, Mind Trick, does the same thing as a basic Genjutsu, and is again something that even beginner Force users learn as a basic application of the Force. Each application beyond that is a more advanced and potent technique that requires more mastery and resistance to be able to be unaffected by:
  • Alter Mind: A power used to shape the minds of others or project an image into the mind of another being, often an altered perception of reality or illusion that could influence the being.
    • Mind Twist: A variation of Alter Mind where the user intrudes into another's consciousness and twisted their perception of reality to suit his own ends to the point that they are able to convince them that they are suffocating or on fire to the point that their bodies stop breathing and start physically burning respectively.
  • Force Suppression: A mind-affecting Force power that allows a Force-sensitive to harness the Force in order to convince others that they had been cut off from the Force itself. As such, it serves both to diminish an enemy's Force resistance and to negate a vast range of Force abilities.
    • Force Breach: An advanced application of Force Suppression that deals catastrophic damage against targets by rupturing their shatterpoints.
  • Mind Control: Also known as dominate mind, mind control is the dark-side equivalent of the Jedi mind trick, though mind control is much more invasive. It takes complete control of the mind(s) of the victim(s) affected by the power. Higher levels of mastery allow more people to be controlled.
  • Force Fear: Force fear is a dark-side Force power with which the wielder strikes directly at the deepest parts of the target's mind, forcing them to see their worst fears. Through pure force of will alone, a user can cause them to lose their courage completely, and if left undefended, the effects can be severe, rapidly demoralizing the enemy with a feeling of hopelessness and regret. Depending on the victim, it can cause them to either cower defenselessly or flee from their opponent outright.
    • Force Horror: A more advanced application of Force Fear, Fore Horror enables the Force user to cause multiple enemies to enter into a catatonic state of panic that was more severe and more difficult to defend than the basic Force fear.
    • Force Insanity: A more advanced application of Force Fear that enables the Force user to affect multiple enemies at once, although to an even greater range than its predecessor. As the most advanced form of Force fear, its effect was much more devastating, with the victims descending into an utter state of frenzied madness and deranged mania.
  • Force Illusion: A very powerful Force ability and a subset of the various mind trick powers. At a base level, the user projects an image into the minds of beings within range, of anything from a pillar of fire to a horde of snarling monsters to a fleet of warships. The user can "see" the illusion as well, though it is only partially there, appearing semi-transparent like a hologram which can be controlled mentally, limited only by the imagination of the user. A Force illusion does not merely affect the sight of a target, since it is projected directly into the brain of the creature, it appears on all of their senses, from hearing to smell to senses such as echolocation. Even viewing it through an electronic system such as a cybernetic eye or camera is of no use if the target is within range of the illusion during its duration.
This is all stuff that Vader has a multi-layered resistance to.
A_Stoned_Orc said:
That's still a 3-4x difference at best, assuming lowest possible temp for Amaterasu and highest for the lightsaber, but I would argue that Amaterasu is right up there with the saber based on performance.
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Yes, 3-4x higher than anything Obito can resist. Ergo he cannot resist it.
A_Stoned_Orc said:
Dark Side Tendrils are stated to "annihilate matter", but this doesn't equate to the bonafide, layered existense erasure of the TSB. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_side_tendrils

TSB wouldn't be affected by telekinesis because it's powered by the Force and not Senjutsu.
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And what exactly is the difference between Senjutsu and the Force?
 
CinnabarManx421 said:
So Death Battle often gets criticized for when they get a match “wrong” or when they have bad research, and even people who say not to look to Death Battle for matchup results because of certain outcomes. But how often would you guys say Death Battle gets it right? Personally I think they’re pretty accurate like 85% of the time which is pretty good. And is it ever viable to cite Death Battle in a vs debate to you?
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well vs is subjective so i wouldn't rely on citing DB as a end all be all debate cause they have there own thoughts and such on whos wins no different than u and i

and yes DB track record for the most part is mainly right in terms of the outcome
 
CinnabarManx421 said:
So Death Battle often gets criticized for when they get a match “wrong” or when they have bad research, and even people who say not to look to Death Battle for matchup results because of certain outcomes. But how often would you guys say Death Battle gets it right? Personally I think they’re pretty accurate like 85% of the time which is pretty good. And is it ever viable to cite Death Battle in a vs debate to you?
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I think their hit rate has significantly improved over the years, so I’d say by S8-10 they’re consistently in the 90%+ range for verdicts being how they realistically should go.

Obviously the older days from like S6 and before are in a…. Very shaky stage though. More hit and miss
 
WeeklyBattles said:
1. Yes, there are layers. Mind hax resistance is something that even beginner Force users learn as a basic application of the Force, which is called Thought Shield, its so basic that even non-Jedi and non-Sith are able to learn this, like some diplomats have done. As they become more skilled in the Force their resistance to these techniques becomes stronger, as well as being able to resist stronger, more advanced applications of mind manipulation that i will explain below. Vader's mind resistance is superior to people who can resist mind hax that can manipulate the mind of an entire planet of master force users, as well as people like Revan who was able to fight off an entire council of Jedi masters trying to mind control him. On top of this, Vader has specific measures that let him subconsciously recognize and break out of illusions that involve Padme specifically as that is something that people in his own universe have tried against him multiple times.

2. Yes, the most basic application of mind manipulation, Mind Trick, does the same thing as a basic Genjutsu, and is again something that even beginner Force users learn as a basic application of the Force. Each application beyond that is a more advanced and potent technique that requires more mastery and resistance to be able to be unaffected by:
  • Alter Mind:
    • Mind Twist:
  • Force Suppression:
    • Force Breach:
  • Mind Control:
  • Force Fear:
    • Force Horror:
    • Force Insanity:
  • Force Illusion:
This is all stuff that Vader has a multi-layered resistance to.

Yes, 3-4x higher than anything Obito can resist. Ergo he cannot resist it.

And what exactly is the difference between Senjutsu and the Force?
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Every single ability you listed and explained is a potential application of standard genjutsu, which all ninja are taught how to resist and dispell in the Academy. None of it gives particular confidence towards resisting IT, which is such a complete hypnosis that even users of the Byakugan (which is similarly a hard counter to illusions and mind manip) were ensnared, and it was believed even Sasuke with his Rinnegan would have been if not for Susano'o.


Fair enough on the dark dimension stuff.


Disagree. Amaterasu's exact temperature is unknown and it has performed similarly to lightsabers, the latter of which have been calc'd (albeit off site) at 8k-25k Celsius based on its displayed ability to cut through stone and blast doors with ease--feats that Amaterasu replicates easily. Both the lightsaber and Amaterasu have canonical statements comparing their heat to a star's.

Most notably, senjutsu chakra is fundamentally different from the Force in that it has different prerequisites, requiring one to balance and mold their inner chakra with natural energy by remaining perfectly still to draw in the energy first. Simply opening oneself to natural energy opens up the possibility of the user changing shape into an animal and petrifying at the same time. Attempting to absorb a Sage's chakra can turn another to stone. The Force has no equivalent mechanic/caveat, requires no mixing with another internal energy, and while Force sensitivity is a genetic trait, with multiple notable Force Sensitives that figured out how to control their Force abilities on their own, the ability to absorb natural energy and create Sage Chakra has to be strictly learned (unless you get the bite from the Great Snake Sage, anyway).
 
CinnabarManx421 said:
So Death Battle often gets criticized for when they get a match “wrong” or when they have bad research, and even people who say not to look to Death Battle for matchup results because of certain outcomes. But how often would you guys say Death Battle gets it right? Personally I think they’re pretty accurate like 85% of the time which is pretty good. And is it ever viable to cite Death Battle in a vs debate to you?
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I ranked all episodes as accurate or inaccurate and left out the ones I don't know.

my-image.png


Then with some math, I converted the fraction of episodes that I think are correct (123) to percentages (Photomath did all the work, I forgot how to convert fractions to percentages without a calculator)

Unless I accidentally miscalculated something, by my estimations and personal opinion, Death Battle is accurate 78.34% of the time.
CinnabarManx421 said:
And is it ever viable to cite Death Battle in a vs debate to you?
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Sadly, people will clown you if you use Death Battle. Powerscalers and normies will mock you, so I avoid using Death Battle regardless if they're correct or not.
CharlesZaGreat said:
Excuse me, but women
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I don't want it unless there is fanservice, but even then fanservice wouldn't fit Death Battle and it would feel trashy.
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
I think their hit rate has significantly improved over the years, so I’d say by S8-10 they’re consistently in the 90%+ range for verdicts being how they realistically should go.

Obviously the older days from like S6 and before are in a…. Very shaky stage though. More hit and miss
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On one hand, you get things like Toph beating Gaara. On the other, you get Raiden beating Wolverine, which was hella amazing to see on the premiere date.
 
OverlordDonnelly said:
On one hand, you get things like Toph beating Gaara. On the other, you get Raiden beating Wolverine, which was hella amazing to see on the premiere date.
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Tbh I still think you could probably argue Raiden beating Wolvey if ur liberal with multipliers for speed stuff, but yeah the Raiden win at the time was a HUGE deal lol.
 
CinnabarManx421 said:
So Death Battle often gets criticized for when they get a match “wrong” or when they have bad research, and even people who say not to look to Death Battle for matchup results because of certain outcomes. But how often would you guys say Death Battle gets it right? Personally I think they’re pretty accurate like 85% of the time which is pretty good. And is it ever viable to cite Death Battle in a vs debate to you?
Click to expand...
Even if they are right with an outcome, they may also do a bad job with research on certain things

Like how jojo wasnt FTL even if jotaro loses to kenshiro

Or goku being x2 FTL and like planetary in ssj4 or so, even if superman beats him
 
Dream of July 10, 2023
Death Battle announces the next episode and Moistcr1tikal announced the episode while he was in a forest with dark trees and blue lighting as if it was barely morning. It was Yuyuko from Touhou versus a small, cowardly character from Lord of the Rings. The episode was going to be released on June 21. Cr1tikal talked about how both can hax each other to death. Yuyuko has more haxes, but her opponent had haxes that Yuyuko can't resist, therefore it was a really close matchup.
 
CinnabarManx421 said:
So Death Battle often gets criticized for when they get a match “wrong” or when they have bad research, and even people who say not to look to Death Battle for matchup results because of certain outcomes. But how often would you guys say Death Battle gets it right? Personally I think they’re pretty accurate like 85% of the time which is pretty good. And is it ever viable to cite Death Battle in a vs debate to you?
Click to expand...
BlackDarkness679 said:
Even if they are right with an outcome, they may also do a bad job with research on certain things

Like how jojo wasnt FTL even if jotaro loses to kenshiro

Or goku being x2 FTL and like planetary in ssj4 or so, even if superman beats him
Click to expand...
I think people just have a higher standard on verdict quality from a Death Battle episode than on a blog from a peep.
Imagine, if an ordinary peep can make a verdict for a matchup 85% of a time, the audience simply would expect Death Battle (who is earning money for making these episodes) to make just as good, if not far better.
(In Screwattack Inc defense, quite a lot of effort is given to people making the actual animation - from clip editing to fight animation to script writing to post-production editing and releasing and promotion on a launch of an episode etc.
All making versus debating animation episodes less profitable than it seems to be.)

Side note: the HR and PR policies of Rooster Teeth are... Not top notch. Making recruitment and retention of talents much harder.
 
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