DC Heralds rescaling thread

[Emirp sumitpo]

To clarify, you are scaling a being's Psychic Blast Attack potency against character A to their Telepathy/Mind Manipulation Ability against Character B? Do we have precedent for this sort of thing?

It's mainly due to both attacks coming from the same type of energy source.

I presume you are referring to Superman Confidential Vol 1 #8 December 2007

• In this comic, Superman hadn't met Highfather or Darkseid yet.
• According to Serifan, Superman survived a full-on "sigma" blast from a Parademon spear.
• Darkseid easily backhanded Superman.
• Superman says he would be mad to fight Darkseid.

Later on in that same arc, #10 to be precise, Superman would confront Darkseid and endure several Omega Beam attacks.

At this time, Darkseid was feeding power to both sides of the Cutlist war. The cultist energy attacks were able to overcome Superman's durability. It got to a point that a pseudo forcefield formed around the war. Per Superman, their power is increasing exponentially. This force field caused Superman pain and prevented Superman from interfering. We should acknowledge that in this instance the scaling displayed is Darkseid > Peak Cultist War > Superman

It really doesn't answer a lot of my points when again, he was caught by surprise and was trying to talk things out rather than trying to actually fight. Not to mention having a group hitting at all angles is always going to give an advantage that a 1v1 wouldn't. His thought process very well could be "I can't get through the forcefield, because it would hurt me more and then leave me open to another assault" or so. Superman catching his breath is fine and all, but it's still literally stated that it was a great cost to him, so I don't think you can assert he comes back to full power.

All this points that Superman likely wasn't operating at full capacity, or was using his full strength in this case.

Yes. Scans of this would be more appropriate for this era's scaling.

I'll do so later

Couldn't we just easily revise the statement to "could harm Titus, who could break out of Hal Jordan's Constructs and give him the most painful mental feedback he's felt in the process." It would be more concrete.

I suppose

It's shown in the clash between Hank Hall Monarch and Captain Atom that this is the most power he's output in the overall fight. Your draft also acknowledges that he overpowered the Justice League, sans Atom. Atom, on his own, could go on par with him. Atom scaling to Hank is more solid than the other League members scaling.

I don't see what suggests Monarch was using more power than ever before? Nor do I know of any reason why Monarch would hold back against anyone else in his prior fights. With Superman even capable of breaking his armor, so it's clear that Superman would downscale and is at least in a similar ballpark of power.

AFAIK, I don't think such a rule exists. In any case, they have been informed of the offer.

I recalled Ant saying something about this in a Marvel thread but I can't find it. Oh well.

overpowered the pull ofStarbreaker alongside Hal Jordan

On Supes and Hal’s profile, this scan doesn’t show Supes and Hal doing said feat.

Also, Supes and Hal didn't overpower Starbreaker's pull, they fought against it, Starbreaker then got stronger after feeding on negative energy which forced Hal's construct to fracture, Starbreaker then got weaker from all the hope of the humans cheering for the JLA giving Hal and Supes the advantage to pull Earth back to orbit, after spending the last of his energy trying to put Earth into the Sun and being so severely weakened by positivity and hope, Starbreaker was drained of power and Supes and Hal succeeded into putting Earth back into orbit.

Oh we phrased it wrong, my bad.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the current disagreements here, and who is the banned member that is being cited? @FanofRPGs? I personally do not mind if he is quoted as long as his information and expertise is useful.

 

[Omnificence]

Since we got the cosmology to 1-B, shouldn't we also fix the tiering of some of the other characters like the Great Evil Beast?

 

[Tipper17]

Also how do we tackle on the wonder Woman profile and the other kryptonians like Supergirl and Superboy

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Since we got the cosmology to 1-B, shouldn't we also fix the tiering of some of the other characters like the Great Evil Beast?

This isn't the thread for that.

Also how do we tackle on the wonder Woman profile and the other kryptonians like Supergirl and Superboy

Haven't really discussed that yet, we're still doing the stats for the main profiles for scaling first.

 

[Omnificence]

This isn't the thread for that.

Right, sorry.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

How many more profiles are left to be updated?

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

How many more profiles are left to be updated?

Like a lot, don’t know how many exactly but a lot. Any characters in the sandbox that are left blank (Wonder Woman, Superboy, Bizarro, etc) need to be updated but we have to figure out on how they scale and what justifications should be used for them.

We should also add the “52 Universes” note for any 2-C Pre Crisis characters.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

We should also add the “52 Universes” note for any 2-C Pre Crisis characters.

Yeah sure. I'll finish applying any of the ones in the sandbox that's left, then we can start doing the blanks

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Everything from the sandbox has been implemented, I believe. At least, that's what my list says.
I'll try to make some new justifications when I can.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Everything from the sandbox has been implemented, I believe. At least, that's what my list says.
I'll try to make some new justifications when I can.

Ah cool. I'll try fix some of the mistakes above

@LordTracer do you have your Wonder Woman draft ready?

 

[LordTracer]

@LordTracer do you have your Wonder Woman draft ready?

Sure ig, but I only have stuff for her first key.

LordTracer/Wonder Woman Overhaul

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Kroneii1]

We should also add the “52 Universes” note for any 2-C Pre Crisis characters.

They scale from barbatos feat right?

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

They scale from barbatos feat right?

Yea, all the 2-Cs are based on that feat

 

[Kroneii1]

Yea, all the 2-Cs are based on that feat

Good

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Sure ig, but I only have stuff for her first key.

LordTracer/Wonder Woman Overhaul

vsbattles.fandom.com

Looks pretty good to me

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who are helping out here.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Sure ig, but I only have stuff for her first key.

LordTracer/Wonder Woman Overhaul

vsbattles.fandom.com

I'm fine with this, though I think the Low 2-C should probably be a 3-A, since Kalibak's scaling above average New Gods only nets him a 3-A feat, and I'm not sure what else he really has.
Her Post-Clayface Absorption key definitely should be 2-C though. Feats that come to mind are harming Zoom (Wonder Woman #214) and holding her own against Despero (Trinity #16). Her scaling to Supergirl (Supergirl #5) and above Martian Manhunter (JLA #62) also will most likely end up 2-C.
Rebirth Diana also should be 2-C, as she survived a bomb that knocked out John Stewart and Flash (Action Comics #1020), and she could stagger Doomsday (Action Comics #962). She also has scaling to Damage, who could fight on par with Superman and tank hits from Flash that I could grab later.

For Despero, he's a really solid 2-C pick. He overpowers (JLA #117-#118) Martian Manhunter (Justice League America #39) very (Justice League Europe #33) consistently (Justice League America #58). He's also compared to both Hank Hall Monarch and Dreamslayer (Justice League America #87), with Dreamslayer being a rival to Darkseid (Justice League America #88), and he's also drawn blood from Wally. He has probably his best feat ever in JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice, where he overpowers Superman + Captain Marvel + Power Girl + Wonder Woman, but considering Diana going toe-to-toe with him later and Superman even one-shotting him (Superman/Batman #33), this is probably an outlier. But still, I think he should be 2-C.

Martian Manhunter is a complicated one to scale. I'll try to get to him later, he'll probably 2-C but quite low on the scaling chain.

 

[LordTracer]

I'm fine with this, though I think the Low 2-C should probably be a 3-A, since Kalibak's scaling above average New Gods only nets him a 3-A feat, and I'm not sure what else he really has.

The Low 2-C mainly came from her durability justification scaling her above Kyle, but I don’t really care all that much at this point since I’m not completely done with my WW revision yet.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I'm fine with this, though I think the Low 2-C should probably be a 3-A, since Kalibak's scaling above average New Gods only nets him a 3-A feat, and I'm not sure what else he really has.
Her Post-Clayface Absorption key definitely should be 2-C though. Feats that come to mind are harming Zoom (Wonder Woman #214) and holding her own against Despero (Trinity #16). Her scaling to Supergirl (Supergirl #5) and above Martian Manhunter (JLA #62) also will most likely end up 2-C.
Rebirth Diana also should be 2-C, as she survived a bomb that knocked out John Stewart and Flash (Action Comics #1020), and she could stagger Doomsday (Action Comics #962). She also has scaling to Damage, who could fight on par with Superman and tank hits from Flash that I could grab later.

For Despero, he's a really solid 2-C pick. He overpowers (JLA #117-#118) Martian Manhunter (Justice League America #39) very (Justice League Europe #33) consistently (Justice League America #58). He's also compared to both Hank Hall Monarch and Dreamslayer (Justice League America #87), with Dreamslayer being a rival to Darkseid (Justice League America #88), and he's also drawn blood from Wally. He has probably his best feat ever in JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice, where he overpowers Superman + Captain Marvel + Power Girl + Wonder Woman, but considering Diana going toe-to-toe with him later and Superman even one-shotting him (Superman/Batman #33), this is probably an outlier. But still, I think he should be 2-C.

Martian Manhunter is a complicated one to scale. I'll try to get to him later, he'll probably 2-C but quite low on the scaling chain.

Kalibak is equal to Orion in strength that has to account for something

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

as she survived a bomb that knocked out John Stewart and Flash (Action Comics #1020

This one is kinda eh, Flash was standing still so I doubt he was 2-C here, and John varies and I'm not sure if he was operating at his higher levels here.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

The Low 2-C mainly came from her durability justification scaling her above Kyle, but I don’t really care all that much at this point since I’m not completely done with my WW revision yet.

Gotcha. Considering Kyle's varies tier, it'd be good to find more Low 2-C stuff to substantiate the rating. Also, pre-CoF Kyle may end up being 2-C considering he does much better than MMH against Grayven, though that'll really just depend on where J'onn ends up.

Kalibak is equal to Orion in strength that has to account for something

So, this is an interesting point, yeah.
Apparently, we're supposed to believe they're physically equal and Orion just wins every fight they have because of skill, despite Orion having feats of physically matching and defeating Kalibak even when amped by Darkseid. The idea that Orion is equal to or even comparable to Darkseid also makes this weird, as Darkseid is significantly more powerful (Genesis #4) than Kalibak (Green Lantern: Eighty-Page Giant #3). He even fought and defeated a version of Jimmy Olsen with the powers of all New Gods who died in DoTNG (which includes Kalibak) at the end of Countdown. Mind you, Orion fights and defeats Darkseid right after this. Orion being below pre-CF Wonder Woman would also be really inconsistent.

This one is kinda eh, Flash was standing still so I doubt he was 2-C here, and John varies and I'm not sure if he was operating at his higher levels here.

That's fair. Diana overpowers Grodd in this comic, would that be grounds for 2-C? Barry has said Grodd hits harder than any other rogue, but I'm not sure if that's consistent.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

That's fair. Diana overpowers Grodd in this comic, would that be grounds for 2-C? Barry has said Grodd hits harder than any other rogue, but I'm not sure if that's consistent.

Did Grodd have the Still Force here? Because I feel regular Grodd in general is kinda like, tier 8-ish. A lot of his actual feats kinda disprove him being anywhere near 2-C imo.

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

On Starbreaker’s profile, specifically the AP section on his second key, these scans don’t indicate that he can affect histories or futures.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Gotcha. Considering Kyle's varies tier, it'd be good to find more Low 2-C stuff to substantiate the rating. Also, pre-CoF Kyle may end up being 2-C considering he does much better than MMH against Grayven, though that'll really just depend on where J'onn ends up.

So, this is an interesting point, yeah.
Apparently, we're supposed to believe they're physically equal and Orion just wins every fight they have because of skill, despite Orion having feats of physically matching and defeating Kalibak even when amped by Darkseid. The idea that Orion is equal to or even comparable to Darkseid also makes this weird, as Darkseid is significantly more powerful (Genesis #4) than Kalibak (Green Lantern: Eighty-Page Giant #3). He even fought and defeated a version of Jimmy Olsen with the powers of all New Gods who died in DoTNG (which includes Kalibak) at the end of Countdown. Mind you, Orion fights and defeats Darkseid right after this. Orion being below pre-CF Wonder Woman would also be really inconsistent.

That's fair. Diana overpowers Grodd in this comic, would that be grounds for 2-C? Barry has said Grodd hits harder than any other rogue, but I'm not sure if that's consistent.

I think Flashes consistently manhandled Grodd at their peak

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

@Antvasima Could you delete this profile pls?

Starbreaker (Post-Crisis)

Starbreaker is an energy vampire and the adult form of a Sun-Eater created by a Controller to destroy planets they deemed to be "Evil". Tier: At least 4-A Name: Luciphage, Starbreaker Origin: DC Comics Gender: Male Classification: Cosmic Vampire Age: Billions of years old Powers and Abilities...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Could we use Quarzz Tehrarhni sealing a black hole that was going to destroy the entire Space Sector as well?(Green Lantern vol 2 #151)

Space Sectors, being 1/3600th of the universe should count as at least Galaxy level, and have had galaxies in them. For example, our sector (2814) contains the Milky Way Galaxy and Galaxy 882 (later shown in Green Lantern vol 3 #19 to both still exist post-crisis and be part of Hal Jordan's patrol) at the very least.

Seeing as this feat is:

1. From an experienced Green Lantern (Served for nearly 137 years)

2. A pretty clear limit for him (Took all of his might and he died from his wounds hours later), this should be a good baseline for what your "average" Lantern can do, supports Flodo and Driq, and the Earth Lanterns, especially the Four Corpsmen, should be able to replicate or exceed it since they're special.

Ok so looking into this, depending on how large a Green Lantern space sector is, this is either low end 3-B or like, really high into 3-A.

Idk how I feel about that

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Ok so looking into this, depending on how large a Green Lantern space sector is, this is either low end 3-B or like, really high into 3-A.

Idk how I feel about that

Could the low end be used to support the Flodo and Driq?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Could the low end be used to support the Flodo and Driq?

I suppose so. I'm still trying to find what the general size is for a space sector.

 

[Excellence616]

Will Superboy (Conner) get 2-C?

 

[Scottycj256]

yeah

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Will Superboy (Conner) get 2-C?

Aren't Conner's powers not even similar to Clark's?
THough he threw hands with SBP anyway

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

THough he threw hands with SBP anyway

IIRC, wasn't SBP weakened or something

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Aren't Conner's powers not even similar to Clark's?
THough he threw hands with SBP anyway

Well, before his Kryptonian powers came in, he only had Tactile Telekinesis, but by the time he fought Prime, he had developed Kryptonian powers in addition to TTK.

IIRC, wasn't SBP weakened or something

Kinda?

I feel like if you want examples of BOTH Superboys "varies" rating, look no further than their three fights with each other

In Teen Titans #32/Infinite Crisis #4, Conner (suffering from emotional issues) fights Prime and gets utterly dunked on and beaten nearly to death.

Then, in Infinite Crisis #6, Conner (over his emotional issues) fights Prime vastly better, able to hurt him and take his attacks. He does end up losing, but that's more because he slammed them both into the Multiverse Tuning Tower than Prime simply murdering him. Prime is still somewhat stronger, since he catches Conner's hand and hurts/crushes it, but it's NOWHERE near as one-sided as Round 1.

Then in Round 3 Final Crisis Legion of 3 Worlds 4 and 5, a freshly resurrected Conner fights Prime (suffering from Flash Phobia and implied fear of Conner, as he has a breakdown simply hearing Conner's voice) and Conner does the best against Prime EVER. He takes the fight directly to him, draws blood from him, burns his chest with heat vision, and does better than literally any member of the Legion who fought Prime in those same issues, save for Element Lad using Kryptonite.

Those three fights show how both vary just in respect with EACH OTHER, when you take their mental states into account.

Round 1: Depressed Conner vs a motivated Prime.

Round 2: Motivated Prime vs Motivated Conner

Round 3: Scared Prime vs Motivated Conner.

Oh, and I missed this before, but I think that this makes a lot of sense, maybe besides SBP being mentally nerfed in LO3W, since he had just re-experienced all of his rage from Infinite Crisis and should be at that sort of level.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Superboy is also stated to hold back:

Young Justice #8, Superman #8

 

[Antvasima]

I

@Antvasima Could you delete this profile pls?

Starbreaker (Post-Crisis)

Starbreaker is an energy vampire and the adult form of a Sun-Eater created by a Controller to destroy planets they deemed to be "Evil". Tier: At least 4-A Name: Luciphage, Starbreaker Origin: DC Comics Gender: Male Classification: Cosmic Vampire Age: Billions of years old Powers and Abilities...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I have done so, but these pages need to have their links to the Starbreaker page removed.

Pages that link to "Starbreaker (Post-Crisis)" | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Excellence616]

I
I have done so, but these pages need to have their links to the Starbreaker page removed.

Pages that link to "Starbreaker (Post-Crisis)" | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom

vsbattles.fandom.com

open these profiles

Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)

Hal Jordan reciting the Green Lanterns' Oath Hal Jordan is a member, and occasionally the leader, of the intergalactic police force called the Green Lantern Corps. He fights evil across the Universe with a ring that grants him a variety of superpowers. Tier: 2-C | Varies, up to 3-C, 2-C at his...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Superman (Post-Crisis)

Superman is one of the most powerful beings on Earth and its greatest hero. Born to the illustrious House of El, Kal-El is one of the last surviving members of his race as his planet was destroyed not long after his birth. He was found and raised by Jonathan and Martha Kent in Smallville...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Excellence616]

open these profiles

Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)

Hal Jordan reciting the Green Lanterns' Oath Hal Jordan is a member, and occasionally the leader, of the intergalactic police force called the Green Lantern Corps. He fights evil across the Universe with a ring that grants him a variety of superpowers. Tier: 2-C | Varies, up to 3-C, 2-C at his...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Superman (Post-Crisis)

Superman is one of the most powerful beings on Earth and its greatest hero. Born to the illustrious House of El, Kal-El is one of the last surviving members of his race as his planet was destroyed not long after his birth. He was found and raised by Jonathan and Martha Kent in Smallville...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Some one already handled them. Done with rest

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I
I have done so, but these pages need to have their links to the Starbreaker page removed.

Pages that link to "Starbreaker (Post-Crisis)" | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom

vsbattles.fandom.com

Done.

 

[Omnificence]

@Antvasima Could you delete this profile pls?

Starbreaker (Post-Crisis)

Starbreaker is an energy vampire and the adult form of a Sun-Eater created by a Controller to destroy planets they deemed to be "Evil". Tier: At least 4-A Name: Luciphage, Starbreaker Origin: DC Comics Gender: Male Classification: Cosmic Vampire Age: Billions of years old Powers and Abilities...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Why did it need to be deleted?