Dc DeMateis cosmology and yet PART 2

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Ik who your referring to, but just imagine someone not knowing who toddler is reading that lmao

WHO AM I?

 

[Brahmatman]

I feel like this is one of those instances I was talking about where "more real" is used as something of a buzzword. I just finished reading Superman: The Kansas Sighting, and throughout this story, there are mysterious alien/u.f.o. sightings which lead to moments where the main cast is abducted. All this fluff about how "this dream is truer than reality" is literally... just characters like Superman trying to comprehend if the repeated alien abductions are illusions, then concluding at times of reflection that what they thought were dreams are actually "more real than anything they've ever known..." in the sense that these illusions hit them on a personal level, like with the illusion of a Jor-El manifestation that makes Superman question if his life on earth was a pretense. This story is being taken tremendously out of context.

In this case, all this would make sense if your text did not contradict the very nature of the aliens and the description of their existence and position within the framework of the reality structure of dreams that were given further in the course of the comic book narrative, making Superman's feelings and statements confirm his own words and confirmations. That is, Superman’s words do not contradict this context and description in any way, so I don’t see any point in not taking them into account if they quite accurately fit in with subsequent events and the cosmological structure of illusions/dreams in Demmateis’s comics, which I will describe below. In fact, reality in Dematteis cosmology is an illusion, the ideas of which are taken from the doctrine of Hinduism, in which the entire multiverse (there really is a multiverse) is nothing more than a dream of the supreme God.
As Darkseid confirms You of all people should understand that what most take as reality is an illusion
These aliens (we'll call them that for simplicity) are residents of a deeper level of reality. Yes, Superman confirms that this is not an illusion at all, and as I argued just above, the illusion is reality in DeMatteis's cosmological position. And this fits perfectly with the subsequent statements about the levels of reality in which aliens exist.
Further, I don’t know why you didn’t pay attention to the fact that the Universe is a hologram projected from the mind (you didn’t describe it at all), which already confirms the status of these aliens and proves their existential position.. All this ties in perfectly with the comic book about Green Lantern, where he, in his individual unconscious, created the universe using his will and imagination, projecting a hologram from his own mind. Yes, we literally get the same interpretations by the authors without any changes, as if it were the same comic released in the same year. Any of his words and statements are interconnected and do not change in any way over the course of many years.
Further in the story we learn that these are not aliens at all, but creatures created from the unconscious of people, they are very real manifestations and reflections of the unconscious person. The universes created are individual unconscious even much more real than the previous ones (in the context of the Justice League leaving their universe into the unconscious) That for them have as much actuality probably more so as the called real universe we've left behind.
Thus, it turns out that these aliens are the creation of an unconscious person, who can create universes with his mind, which may be more real than others, and which, for the inhabitants inside, are no different from illusions.
Man creates the universe in a dream, which is the dream of another man creating his own universe, and all this is the dream of God

Yup, this solidifies it. The whole storyline is being taken massively out of context. At the moment of this scan, the Kansas sightings for aliens and u.f.o.'s draws a large crowd around Herbert Moore's property, and this crowd begins spitting delusions and conspiracy theories regarding aliens. The whole "12 dimensions stuff" is just a rando stereotyping the aliens as extra-dimensional beings, and not a statement on cosmology. Seriously, reread this scan while taking my assessment into consideration. With that out of the way, it seems the main crutch for a higher dimensional cosmology is gone.

Yes, this is a statement from a mad crowd. Which subsequently, according to the comic book narrative, is confirmed by Superman himself and the aliens that the term dimension is used in this world. He, again, does not contradict these words and the statement about its existence. I would not use it unless it was confirmed further. Although, even if the term twelve dimensions exists in their world, then it can still exist as a cosmological system

Buzzwords about the aliens being indescribable/mysterious, I don't even think this could suffice as supporting evidence.

This is your opinion, which does not fit with the cosmology and plot of the comic, in which aliens are not physical beings and are not creatures from our universe at all. Yes, and in this way you can destroy any confirmation, considering it a buzzword

2. The whole 2-issue Kansas Sighting storyline used as a basis for much of the OP is being taken massively out of context. For one thing, the "12-dimensional aliens" statement has nothing to do with cosmology, and is just a random nutjob shouting spiel and conspiracies in a manner like this.

I already wrote about this, the use of the term dimension in their universe was confirmed by Superman and the Aliens, when Superman received the answer that aliens are from other dimensions to the previous answer of the aliens about the deep levels of reality

3. Adding onto that last point, the aliens don't have R>F over the universe either. To contextualize the "dream more real than reality" stuff, the main cast is abducted by aliens in instances which they assert to be illusions, but further assert to be "more real than anything they've known" because these illusions hit them on a personal level.

Mistake again. They are the creation of an unconscious person who can create his own universe using will and imagination, and which may be more real than another universe. Reality is an illusion, and aliens are more real than illusion, and are on a higher level of existence, and a deeper level of reality. No illusion could exist, because illusion is equivalent to reality in which aliens do not exist

 

[Deymoc13]

Belinsky did very good work. I agree

 

[LordQDW]

I agree to increase the level, good arguments

 

[OlafThorsson]

Very great work. I agree.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I agree

 

[PrinceofPein]

This and previous threads contain so much evidence of qualitative superiority that it’s just funny to me how you try to deny absolutely everything without any clear arguments, simply because you don’t want to accept it.

You can't just say "No, that won't work" while there are a ton of scans that prove a qualitative difference.

Sometimes it seems to me (like many other wikis and social networks) that this wiki is deliberately trying to downgrade DC Universe, using so many little things in its attempts to downgrade. I have not seen such a high level of detailed predications in other threads as in DC.

I'm not seeing the scans in the op though?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

You don't see the authors randomly say “that beings are dimensional superior” with the intent of trying to match something that the Wiki comes by. That's simply how Matteis writes with the Dream logic. Most authors write how they think and I do not believe they reference VSBW's work of dimensional tiering as a justification of what they meant by superior, more real, higher, etc…

Like I said before, at this point, the arguments sound like special pleading to a degree. I've seen this line of reasoning come up on various upgrades, and it's a large misinterpretation of what skeptics actually want. Nobody's saying you need to namedrop every vsbw terminology to gain higher tiers, we're saying that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You can't just say "my interpretation is reliable because it just is," an interpretation is only reliable when it viably rules out alternate interpretations. Seriously, I've never undestood this complaint. "You can't expect the author to have given us [insert specific required evidence], he doesn't write like that." The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. There are plenty of verses that are inches away from gaining large upgrades, but fail because the author writes too metaphysically/child-friendly to drop the specific keywords needed to gain upgrades. I don't see why exceptions should be made. If the evidence isn't reliable enough for the site standards, it is what it is.

I've literally asked him do planes transcend each other to insignificant and he said yes, and all planes, and everything else me as nothing to God. The closer you are to him, the more power you have, and the higher state of consciousness you achieve.

Source?

You seem to miss the point of “more real.” The idea is that everything is an illusion dreamt up by God. Thus the reality happening in the Dream is nothing but a mere illusory sense before coming closer to God. To go beyond the Gross Plane and transcend material to the Sutble and Mental realm where you achieve infinite power, knowledge, and bliss accounts for higher planes that completely disregard the body's needs for physicalness.

At the highest end, this would mean that God had R>F over the highest layer of the dream, whose bottom layer has R>F over creation. It seems like the individual layers have a strictly finite difference in scale. Deagonx's interpretation I cited before about spiritual growth seems more reliable. At any rate, the pressing issue is that the evidence starts and ends at "they view everything as a dream." We don't give out R>F transcendence simply for evidence of a medium that would allow one to view something as qualitatively inferior, you need additional supporting evidence for an inaccessible gap. We've never given "they view that world as if it were inside a comic book" R>F without additional supporting evidence for said comic book's contents being inferior, nothingness, or at the very least higher beings acheiving something like casual plot manipulation.

Qualifiers​

In order to qualify they must view the world as a some actual form of 'fiction', i.e. to them what happens in the fiction is not real and of no physical consequence to their being and also otherwise is of no greater consequence to their being than an actual fictional character could reasonably be to a real life human. However, the medium in which they view the world as fiction generally does not matter, as it being fiction is enough for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence to be considered.

Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority. Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane and not necessarily the fiction in itself.

In edge cases, where it is unclear whether a depiction qualifies as truly viewing a world as fiction, the most important deciding factor is whether the depiction justifies an assumption of qualitative superiority for the same reasons as the above mentioned general cases. I.e. one should ask oneself: Is it by nature of the depiction likely that nothing that happens in the 'fictional world', no matter how powerful, could affect the 'real world' due to the fictional nature of the former?

Moving on...

That's only slightly true. Seekers dwell in beings beyond just humans comprehending their nature as God living limitless lifetimes. They must seek the journey of self-individualization that they are the Primal Ocean of Oneness and that they are God. So feeling a personal sense of knowledge is part of that experience. Nevertheless, the interconnection point of Stuble and Gross is where they achieve all the powers of God, of the Oversoul.

Superman's experience speaks for himself as would anyone. To them, they feel and seem real but as they journey to higher planes, they realize the past is less real and then above that would feel less real. It works until they realize only God is the real reality and that they are God dreaming of Creation. If a UFO landing there means a way of understanding it then it's part of the journey to gain knowledge. Has nothing to do with higher planes being more real doesn't mean superiority, when the context of the story presents “more real” as analogous to being more superior.

I could have left some context out of the story in my explanation, but sure, let's go with that. Indeed, the alien mental abductions were theorized by Superman to be phenomena from the collective unconscious. The problem is, if you were to agree with the collective unconscious at any level having R>F over creation, the fact that the collective unconscious transcends everything would be a given, and therefore amount to nothing beyond a single R>F transcendence (+1 dimensional gap).

Like every theorist? They don't have proof, they theorize. Humans can think of what they meant and the story depicts them as human.

I knew someone would make an argument like this. I couldn't figure out how to explain the 12-D statement any better, hence why I compared it with this scene, but at this point, I'll have to address the staff members reviewing this thread specifically.

The statement comes from Superman: The Kansas Sighting, which is a 2-issue storyline released in 2003. We're not allowed to link read comic online .li last I heard, but it won't be hard to find online with a quick google search. The statement comes from halfway down the site page, under scans labeled for pages 27 to 29. As I said before, a crowd of lunatics gathers around Mr. Moore's house and starts spouting theories about alien invaders, with one of them theorizing that the aliens are extradimensional beings, 12-dimensional to be exact. I don't know how to put this without constantly repeating myself, but unless you're someone reading these issues strictly through a power scaling lens, there's nothing that would remotely allow one to conclude that this statement was meant to be taken seriously. This isn't a matter of "maybe the angle DeMatteis was trying to get at was that the aliens could be 12-dimensional, or infinite dimensional, or higher outerversal" and whatnot. Full stop, the statement from the actual issue isn't deep, and was strictly portrayed as a madman being crazy about aliens. It's not just "wow, you're being so picky about the statements," in no capacity whatsoever was this statement meant to be taken seriously. For real, just look at this scan realistically. Not through a power scaling lens or "we can get upgrades out of this" mindset, but through a purely neutral lense.

In this case, all this would make sense if your text did not contradict the very nature of the aliens and the description of their existence and position within the framework of the reality structure of dreams that were given further in the course of the comic book narrative, making Superman's feelings and statements confirm his own words and confirmations. That is, Superman’s words do not contradict this context and description in any way, so I don’t see any point in not taking them into account if they quite accurately fit in with subsequent events and the cosmological structure of illusions/dreams in Demmateis’s comics, which I will describe below. In fact, reality in Dematteis cosmology is an illusion, the ideas of which are taken from the doctrine of Hinduism, in which the entire multiverse (there really is a multiverse) is nothing more than a dream of the supreme God.
As Darkseid confirms You of all people should understand that what most take as reality is an illusion
These aliens (we'll call them that for simplicity) are residents of a deeper level of reality. Yes, Superman confirms that this is not an illusion at all, and as I argued just above, the illusion is reality in DeMatteis's cosmological position. And this fits perfectly with the subsequent statements about the levels of reality in which aliens exist.
Further, I don’t know why you didn’t pay attention to the fact that the Universe is a hologram projected from the mind (you didn’t describe it at all), which already confirms the status of these aliens and proves their existential position.. All this ties in perfectly with the comic book about Green Lantern, where he, in his individual unconscious, created the universe using his will and imagination, projecting a hologram from his own mind. Yes, we literally get the same interpretations by the authors without any changes, as if it were the same comic released in the same year. Any of his words and statements are interconnected and do not change in any way over the course of many years.
Further in the story we learn that these are not aliens at all, but creatures created from the unconscious of people, they are very real manifestations and reflections of the unconscious person. The universes created are individual unconscious even much more real than the previous ones (in the context of the Justice League leaving their universe into the unconscious) That for them have as much actuality probably more so as the called real universe we've left behind.
Thus, it turns out that these aliens are the creation of an unconscious person, who can create universes with his mind, which may be more real than others, and which, for the inhabitants inside, are no different from illusions.
Man creates the universe in a dream, which is the dream of another man creating his own universe, and all this is the dream of God

As I said before, if we were to agree that the Aliens are transcendent beings by virtue of being manifested from the collective unconscious, that would just result in the collective unconscious being transcendent of reality, which we already accept to an extent? At best, the collective unconsious being a higher plane would add a single layer of infinity to the cosmology.

Yes, this is a statement from a mad crowd. Which subsequently, according to the comic book narrative, is confirmed by Superman himself and the aliens that the term dimension is used in this world. He, again, does not contradict these words and the statement about its existence. I would not use it unless it was confirmed further. Although, even if the term twelve dimensions exists in their world, then it can still exist as a cosmological system

Non sequitor. The ramblings from the lunatic and this interaction between Superman and the illusions have nothing to do with each other. It's not like Superman says, "so you guys are really 12-D" then the aliens respond "we're something beyond that." He justs asks if they're from a higher dimension to which they respond that dimension doesn't even begin to describe the level of reality they exist in.

This will probably go in circles, so I'm just waiting for staff review at this point. If they find your interpretation more reliable, splendid. If they agree with mine, wonderful. Either way, we most likely won't be reaching an agreement.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Like I said before, at this point, the arguments sound like special pleading to a degree. I've seen this line of reasoning come up on various upgrades, and it's a large misinterpretation of what skeptics actually want. Nobody's saying you need to namedrop every vsbw terminology to gain higher tiers, we're saying that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You can't just say "my interpretation is reliable because it just is," an interpretation is only reliable when it viably rules out alternate interpretations. Seriously, I've never undestood this complaint. "You can't expect the author to have given us [insert specific required evidence], he doesn't write like that." The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. There are plenty of verses that are inches away from gaining large upgrades, but fail because the author writes too metaphysically/child-friendly to drop the specific keywords needed to gain upgrades. I don't see why exceptions should be made. If the evidence isn't reliable enough for the site standards, it is what it is.

You asserting such indiscretion of what “undeniable proof” is nothing more than just wanting something that wasn't going to be provided in the context of, VSBW terminology and not the comic book supplementary lore to which we base off interpretation.

Your argument of me needing to plead for such an interpretation sounds more like an empty need for direct evidence. I explained that it has more to do with interpretation that does not fit the Cosmology by trying to equate terminology to suggest that the scans are indicative of dimensional coordinates to prove a hierarchy for R>F. What is said in the comics should be used as such, to ignore the context of “more real” to say it's rather vague and we don't have undeniable proof is just an undisclosed middle. Perhaps it doesn't sound so presumptuous on some scans for you to cheery pick every detail to make sure we do have said “undeniable evidence” for tiering.

I suggest you read more carefully what I said and how it pertains to the story that we can use for scaling the Cosmology. No one discloses the idea of needing evidence to prove it, it was given, and you simply had a different interpretation of what said scans meant. There are no set “specific” scans to correlate to the terms, they are what they are for the story not for the Wiki to use lower or higher interpretation.

Source?

OP and the comics very much are the source(citation from the source material). Asking for more proof is not necessary unless you think every scan needs another look because your views on it seem to be different.

At the highest end, this would mean that God had R>F over the highest layer of the dream, whose bottom layer has R>F over creation. It seems like the individual layers have a strictly finite difference in scale. Deagonx's interpretation I cited before about spiritual growth seems more reliable. At any rate, the pressing issue is that the evidence starts and ends at "they view everything as a dream." We don't give out R>F transcendence simply for evidence of a medium that would allow one to view something as qualitatively inferior, you need additional supporting evidence for an inaccessible gap. We've never given "they view that world as if it were inside a comic book" R>F without additional supporting evidence for said comic book's contents being inferior, nothingness, or at the very least higher beings acheiving something like casual plot manipulation.

You agree with Deagon as “more reliable” doesn't make it true since he also seems to miss the point. As I've mentioned spiritual growth pertains to the person and not the realms they passed. As such every soul has their own interpretation of Heaven, it does not make theirs any turner or real than say the next person.

Spiritual growth is as an individual growing for awareness of their existence. Doesn't change the planes in its entirety.

Moving on...

I could have left some context out of the story in my explanation, but sure, let's go with that. Indeed, the alien mental abductions were theorized by Superman to be phenomena from the collective unconscious. The problem is, if you were to agree with the collective unconscious at any level having R>F over creation, the fact that the collective unconscious transcends everything would be a given, and therefore amount to nothing beyond a single R>F transcendence (+1 dimensional gap).

As Superman had said in #1 the Universe is endless. These creatures were referred to as “Aliens” and were more real due to the fact they came from a higher form of reality. The Collective Unconcious is the collection of all imagination across sentient minds forming an ocean of dreams creating universes from simply their wills and thoughts.

This doesn't disclose the hierarchy of planes because the Collective Unconcious is very much just mental and the connection points to things which is analog is the Nexus from Marvel. What happens there is just what imagination can take and their own version of reality is structured based on experience. You can't really imagine what you don't know which is the point of growth and depending on each Soul can learn as fast or slow.

Collective Unconscious is simply not the next level beyond the Gross Plane.

I knew someone would make an argument like this. I couldn't figure out how to explain the 12-D statement any better, hence why I compared it with this scene, but at this point, I'll have to address the staff members reviewing this thread specifically.
The statement comes from Superman: The Kansas Sighting, which is a 2-issue storyline released in 2003. We're not allowed to link read comic online .li last I heard, but it won't be hard to find online with a quick google search. The statement comes from halfway down the site page, under scans labeled for pages 27 to 29. As I said before, a crowd of lunatics gathers around Mr. Moore's house and starts spouting theories about alien invaders, with one of them theorizing that the aliens are extradimensional beings, 12-dimensional to be exact. I don't know how to put this without constantly repeating myself, but unless you're someone reading these issues strictly through a power scaling lens, there's nothing that would remotely allow one to conclude that this statement was meant to be taken seriously. This isn't a matter of "maybe the angle DeMatteis was trying to get at was that the aliens could be 12-dimensional, or infinite dimensional, or higher outerversal" and whatnot. Full stop, the statement from the actual issue isn't deep, and was strictly portrayed as a madman being crazy about aliens. It's not just "wow, you're being so picky about the statements," in no capacity whatsoever was this statement meant to be taken seriously. For real, just look at this scan realistically. Not through a power scaling lens or "we can get upgrades out of this" mindset, but through a purely neutral lense.

You're putting a lot of subjectiveness on a scan that's meant to illicitly explain higher form.

Superman literally explains in the form of a question about these creatures from another dimension. They declare they are not defined by dimensions because the deeper layer has concepts of what we provide in 4D useless.

The idea of those “lunatics” is to prove untold dimensions which they perceive their own theory was “12 dimensions” to which those Aliens could hail from or at least take them to it. What exactly are you denying dimension here? Superman literally tells us everything is real and not real and each Soul can make their own interpretation. To say the words are fallible beats the point of why they even brought up ideas of dimensions. A higher form of reality is meant to imply there are things truer than some people on lower planes.

As I said before, if we were to agree that the Aliens are transcendent beings by virtue of being manifested from the collective unconscious, that would just result in the collective unconscious being transcendent of reality, which we already accept to an extent? At best, the collective unconsious being a higher plane would add a single layer of infinity to the cosmology.

They literally stated that they project from that dreamt of them which at the same time is being projected by the people. It works both ways but one thing is true, they are higher beings in the deeper layer of the Dream.

As for Collective Unconcious, we are not given where it is because it's within the Mental Plane which surpasses both Gross and Subtle, where each Soul has infinite power, knowledge, and bliss and their will and words bring entire universes. If it's true, then it is above multitudes of planes since Heaven, and that aren't the only planes, you simply keep going until you return to the Love Sea.

Lord Arif in JLD stated everything happens simultaneously in the Now Kingdom. Every step and breath is infinite and all things happen as they happen. An endless universe being dreamed of by each soul without boundaries and through limitless planes do evoke R>F of a hierarchy, in this case, the Dream.

Non sequitor. The ramblings from the lunatic and this interaction between Superman and the illusions have nothing to do with each other. It's not like Superman says, "so you guys are really 12-D" then the aliens respond "we're something beyond that." He justs asks if they're from a higher dimension to which they respond that dimension doesn't even begin to describe the level of reality they exist in.

Dimension is a concept that the mind makes. At the time, no one could comprehend them, it makes sense that they surpassed dimensionality and said the concept would limit them if lower beings applied that concept. I don't get this point on how it denies evidence of a hierarchy.

This will probably go in circles, so I'm just waiting for staff review at this point. If they find your interpretation more reliable, splendid. If they agree with mine, wonderful. Either way, we most likely won't be reaching an agreement.

That's the point. I argue for mine and you argue for yours. The majority consensus seems to favor it, staff can have their way. It will be discussed more and more to maybe reach smaller agreements.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeTwo @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @LephyrTheRevanchist @Lightning_XXI @Stefano4444 @LuciferX @Vasco @Excel616 @Immortalgodd @JohnCenaNation @VeryGoofyToddler @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @Catzlaflame @Robo432343 @VeryGoofyToddler @Lonkitt @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0 @DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think about this?

I agree more so with the OP.

I think that the first part he took from this comic DeMatteis wrote, "Superman, the Kansas Sighting" very clearly refers to higher dimensionality.

You have one of these a man say that these entities will take them to the 12th dimension, and then we later see how DeMatteis delves into how the "planes" these entities are operating on is far more "deeper", "fundamental", more "real" compared to the regular universe and dimension. They awaken Superman's mind to these higher-dimensions because his awareness was too limitied similar to how in Superman Beyond, Superman's eyes and awareness was upgraded to "4-D" to perceive the Bleed.

I think it would be very odd to argue that these entities aren't intended as higher-dimensional, abstract beings if you actually read the comic. I would recommend everyone to actually read it for more clarity.

The fact of them being from the collective unconsciousness doesn't nullify their higher-dimensionality.

DeMatteis also touched on the collective unconsciousness with the JLA, he made it pretty clear that being born of the collective unconciousness or the collective unconscious itself is not mere mind but an actual existential external thing which exists beyond space and time. It is an actual realm of the Ideal (idea), mind and energy, a place of where archetypes are embodied, similar to something like Plato's Realm of Forms but with a more Jungian, psychological spin on it.

Made pretty clear that the Imaginal Realms that the Trans dwelt in is an actual existential realm at the edge of all things, for DeMatteis, this concept of collective unconsciousness might be the most fundamental thing in his cosmology.

This is pretty consistent in DC when it is said that the gods, these entities living in the the higher realm of the Sphere of the Gods are formed, created and destroyed based on collective unconsciousness, so it is a real realm and force within the universe.

So yeah, I think those "aliens" being 1-B is fine.

I think the "limitless planes of existence" thing with the Spectre could be referring to infinite (non-spatial) dimensions rather than spatial dimensions.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

That's the point. I argue for mine and you argue for yours. The majority consensus seems to favor it, staff can have their way. It will be discussed more and more to maybe reach smaller agreements.

All right then, I'll see what I can add.

I think it would be very odd to argue that these entities aren't intended as higher-dimensional, abstract beings if you actually read the comic. I would recommend everyone to actually read it for more clarity.

As I conceded before, it's obvious that the collective unconscious aliens in the Kansas Sighting storyline were intended to be depicted as higher dimensional beings. Out of curiosity though, I took a glance at what our cosmology page says about the collective unconscious under J.M. DeMatteis cosmology.

Tiering: The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper than the Material World, giving 1 degree of infinity above Low 2-C, making Heaven and the Collective Unconscious Low 1-C.

Herein lies the issue. The most reliable interpretation you can make of these scans is that the collective unconscious has basic R>F over all of creation. However, we already recognize that, so nothing changes from that acknowledgement.

I know I sort of implied that my previous comment would be my final one, but it's good if I reiterate my stance. There's solid evidence for the collective unconscious/heavens as a whole having R>F over the multiverse (something we already recognize, hence why they're Low 1-C under the J.M. cosmology), and solid evidence for the Presence having R>F over the collective unconscious/heavens (something we also recognize, hence why we recognize J.M.'s Presence as 1-C), but if we're just discussing the internal "hierarchy" of planes within the collective unconscious and heavens (I put emphasis on the word hierarchy since some staff members [Lawyer/Deagon] seem to believe that the planes are more frequently portrayed as parallel or otherwise having a finite difference in scale), I don't see them having qualitative superiority over one another, and having the same degree of transcendence over one another that heaven/collective unconscious have over the multiverse.

 

[Bastolan27]

Agree FRA

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think about this?

I'm not necessarily against Heaven being 1-A or the mortal plane being 12-Dimensional (the latter has some supporting quotes in future stories), but I'll have to read through all the responses first before I give a weigh in.

 

[Bastolan27]

To which characters would this apply?

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

@Ehnkr2beboh

What do you think about this?

From reading the OP, it seems to check out, and further fleshes out the already excepted scans depicting the deeper levels of reality/layers of dreams.
However, I think it's probably best for a revision that largely relies on R>F/unreality gaps to take place once Ultima's thread is concluded, since the quantifications and qualifications for said gaps are likely going to change.

Edit: Oh and one other thing, if these scans are determined to only qualify for their currently accepted level, they still should be added to cosmology blog to further support its conclusions imo.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

To which characters would this apply?

God and Creation. By factor, possibly Pralaya.

 

[Brahmatman]

God and Creation. By factor, possibly Pralaya.

A person's dream? People see universes like dreams in endless recursion

 

[Brahmatman]

From reading the OP, it seems to check out, and further fleshes out the already excepted scans depicting the deeper levels of reality/layers of dreams.
However, I think it's probably best for a revision that largely relies on R>F/unreality gaps to take place once Ultima's thread is concluded, since the quantifications and qualifications for said gaps are likely going to change.

Edit: Oh and one other thing, if these scans are determined to only qualify for their currently accepted level, they still should be added to cosmology blog to further support its conclusions imo.

I have already described and proved the infinite hierarchy of dreams, where a dream is only a dream of another dream. Why this is not accepted, barring some kind of hostility or unwillingness to accept this evidence, I don’t know.
If this evidence is not accepted, then why is the evidence accepted that Dematteis' God sees creation as a dream and has a higher standard of existence. Why then are infinite dreams accepted into Marvel without any problems or disagreements if they are equivalent to proofs from DeMatteis cosmology?

In the individual unconscious, a living being, using willpower and imagination, is capable of creating its own personal, infinite universe.
All other parallel universes float in bubbles alongside each other. All dreams are entirely objective and real things, representing a separate reality. They are much larger than just objective or non-objective.
The very chain of the dream hierarchy represents a collective unconscious existence, a multitude of dreams in one sequence. And any lower dream is just a manifestation of a higher dream. As we can see in the example of this scan, showing that the other is just the dream of another being.
And the subsequent dream is only, once again, the dream of another being, representing an infinite recursion or hierarchy of dreams, where each subsequent dream is only the dream of a higher being.
>And the fact of the matter is there's really no such things as the end.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

A person's dream? People see universes like dreams in endless recursion

Creation as in the Dream itself. “Multiverse, Creation, Omniverse, Dream, etc…” the one that God dreamed of.

 

[Xearsay]

Because it does not mean high 1-B.
H1B is infinite spatial dimensions or its equivalent i.e. infinite levels with each one having an uncountable infinite difference between them

You’re right it’s not High 1-B, it would be something greater.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Do note, that the realm of Nanda Parbat, which isn't physical can be accessed through the doorways of infinite universes that sail across a dimensional sky that seems endless and spins over and over again.
(Justice League Dark Vol.1 #33)

The Kingdom of Now is a place where everything happens simultaneously. You can find Heaven in one of its fruits or an entire universe in its grain of sand. Each breath is infinite and each step is eternity. A place where things where each instant is beyond infinite.
(Justice League Dark Vol.1 #37)

Beyond the Universe of Mirrors that dwells each moment is infinite with each mirror representing an instant where Now is beyond that where there is no time because time is always now, no past nor future.
(Justice League Dark Vol.1 #37)

This certainly counts for something, I hope.

 

[Brahmatman]

Creation as in the Dream itself. “Multiverse, Creation, Omniverse, Dream, etc…” the one that God dreamed of.

Yeah, but I mean it's all recursion.
There is a universe, which is a man’s dream, and this man’s dream is another man’s dream, and along the way to approaching God, there is an individual Heaven, where the higher planes have no meaning, and all this endless recursion or hierarchy is just a dream of God.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Yeah, but I mean it's all recursion.
There is a universe, which is a man’s dream, and this man’s dream is another man’s dream, and along the way to approaching God, there is an individual Heaven, where the higher planes have no meaning, and all this endless recursion or hierarchy is just a dream of God.

I was referring to the entire Dream, not the individual ones in the hierarchy but the very one that God dreamt of. The entire “Cosmology” or the entirety of the Illusion.

 

[Brahmatman]

I was referring to the entire Dream, not the individual ones in the hierarchy but the very one that God dreamt of. The entire “Cosmology” or the entirety of the Illusion.

Ok

 

[Antvasima]

@ProfectusInfinity @VeryGoofyToddler

Can each of you explain the respective sides of the arguments here in single posts please?

 

[Brahmatman]

VeryGoofyToddler​

I don’t know if these scans were posted on this Wiki, but it’s worth a look as additional proofs of cosmology
The soul is infinite and eternal. There are as many Hells as there are Nerons. When you wake up from sleep, you replace one dream with another. And at the basis of all reality, dreams and universes lies the Void that wafts through the minds of gods and people, this is where universes begin and where they end. The soul in this emptiness begins to dissolve.

That is, they directly tell us that when you wake up from sleep, you will still find yourself in another dream, since all creation is a dream

Superman: The Man of Tomorrow #16​

 

[Brahmatman]

Added proofs to the thread, if allowed

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

VeryGoofyToddler​

I don’t know if these scans were posted on this Wiki, but it’s worth a look as additional proofs of cosmology
The soul is infinite and eternal. There are as many Hells as there are Nerons. When you wake up from sleep, you replace one dream with another. And at the basis of all reality, dreams and universes lies the Void that wafts through the minds of gods and people, this is where universes begin and where they end. The soul in this emptiness begins to dissolve

That is, they directly tell us that when you wake up from sleep, you will still find yourself in another dream, since all creation is a dream

Superman: The Man of Tomorrow #16​

All these links are broken.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

@ProfectusInfinity @VeryGoofyToddler

Can each of you explain the respective sides of the arguments here in single posts please?

I argue that the Dream has a hierarchy that goes with at least being 1-B. Though we are arguing for the fact that Creation can be seen as High 1-B.

1. The Dream is endlessly layered throughout the limitless planes of Existence
2. Material has at least 12 dimensions of the dimensional coordinate.
3. Each plane is transcended by the next as long as the Soul keeps journeying to find individualization.
4. Every little decision of the will makes an entire universe conjure up with its own dreams. That each dream is being dreamed by the next.
5. Higher planes have a higher existence to being beyond anything of the lower to evoke R>F quality for each level being transcendent.
6. Each realm invokes an infinite quantity/or quality. Such as the Kingdom of Now and every little Heaven and the different layers of Heaven for different Souls in different stages.

 

[Brahmatman]

All these links are broken.

I fixed it

 

[Brahmatman]

I argue that the Dream has a hierarchy that goes with at least being 1-B. Though we are arguing for the fact that Creation can be seen as High 1-B.

1. The Dream is endlessly layered throughout the limitless planes of Existence
2. Material has at least 12 dimensions of the dimensional coordinate.
3. Each plane is transcended by the next as long as the Soul keeps journeying to find individualization.
4. Every little decision of the will makes an entire universe conjure up with its own dreams. That each dream is being dreamed by the next.
5. Higher planes have a higher existence to being beyond anything of the lower to evoke R>F quality for each level being transcendent.
6. Each realm invokes an infinite quantity/or quality. Such as the Kingdom of Now and every little Heaven and the different layers of Heaven for different Souls in different stages.

Why 1-B? What if we have evidence that dream hierarchies are infinite?
>And the fact of the matter is there's really no such things as the end.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Why 1-B? What if we have evidence that dream hierarchies are infinite?
>And the fact of the matter is there's really no such things as the end.

I said at minimum if they don't accept the given tiers. 1-B is the lowest interpretation, not at all what I propose as the final summary.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

@ProfectusInfinity @VeryGoofyToddler

Can each of you explain the respective sides of the arguments here in single posts please?

Sure, I'll explain my disagreement with the main arguments used.

There are aliens who are stated to exist on a deeper level of reality which is more real than the universe, which is a hologram in comparison. The laws of logic and physics don't apply to them, and [higher] dimension is too limited of a descriptor to reflect their nature.​

These scans are taken from Superman: The Kansas Sighting. Here was my original counterargument: the aliens don't have R>F over the multiverse. The short storyline was about a series of U.F.O. sightings that came in the form of mental abductions. Or at least they seemed like mental abductions, because the main cast was trying to figure out if the repeated abductions were illusions. These illusions often hit them on a personal level, like with an illusory Jor-El among the aliens who made Superman reflect on his life on earth. My reasoning was that "more real than reality" was stated in the context of characters questioning if the abductions were a trick of the mind, to which they concluded that they were "more real than anything they'd ever known" because of how hard-hitting the specific illusions were.

I conceded the above line of reasoning when it was pointed out that the aliens were stated to be manifestations of the collective unconscious, which makes it impossible to deny that they have R>F over reality and indeed exist on a higher plane. However, we already recognize J.M. DeMatteis's collective unconscious as a higher dimension, so these statements effectively introduce nothing to the cosmology but additional supporting evidence.

Tiering: The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper than the Material World, giving 1 degree of infinity above Low 2-C, making Heaven and the Collective Unconscious Low 1-C.

The aliens were stated to be transcendent to the point where [higher] dimension is too limited to reflect their nature, which is an outerverse level statement.​

Not according to the tiering system FAQ:

Q: What tier is transcending dimensions?​

A: As specified above, a "dimension" is nothing more than a set of values representing a given direction within a system, and a multi-dimensional space can itself be thought of as a multiplication of several "copies" of these sets. For instance, the 3-dimensional space in which we live is often visualized as the set of all 3-tuples of real numbers (Thus, taking its values from the real number line, R), and is thus the result of the iterated multiplication: R x R x R = R³, likewise, 4-dimensional space is the set of all 4-tuples of real numbers, and is thus equal to R x R x R x R = R⁴, and so on and so forth.

Practically speaking, this means that there is no limit for the number of dimensions which a space can have whatsoever, and one can construct spaces whose dimension corresponds to any cardinal number, including the infinite ones mentioned above. It is not even necessary for us to restrict ourselves to values taken from the real numbers, either: It is also possible to define the space of all n-tuples of cardinal numbers (Which takes its values from V, the class of all sets)

As a result, it is not at all feasible to take any statements involving a character existing "beyond dimensions" at face value, as this would lead to extremely inflated ratings largely dependent on No-Limits Fallacies. Therefore, such descriptors are to be evaluated while taking into account the number of dimensions which the verse has been shown to entertain; for example, a character stated to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context.

Transcending dimensions is an NLF statement that only grants you a single level of infinity over the number of dimensions shown to exist for a verse.

But can't we at least scale them above the 12 dimensions introduced within the story?​

Let's talk about that statement. After news of the alien abductions gains public traction, a crowd of nutjobs and conspiracy theorists gather around Herbert Moore's house awaiting alien arrivals. One lunatic in underpants and a red alien suit harasses Mr. Moore, and asks him to take them and the crowd to the 12th dimension in an entranced tone. You even have more reasonable people in the crowd being sarcastic about his antics. This interaction took place in the second issue of the storyline, on the page indexed in the scan.

To put it simply, this statement wasn't depicted as something meant to be taken seriously. You have to read the issue to understand it, otherwise I might come off as "oh, I'll just dismiss statements at random," but let me illustrate as best I can. As I said, the guy who made the statement was a lunatic, which is something onlookers acknowledge. It wasn't like knowledgeable characters were speculating higher dimensions, and it wasn't like 12 dimensions were confirmed to exist by godly or otherwise reliable sources. Hell, the interaction with the nutjob wasn't even portrayed as a cuckoolander was right sort of trope. In no manner whatsoever was the 12-D statement depicted by the author as something genuinely pertaining to cosmology. A better way to phrase it is that unless you're viewing this scan strictly through a power scaling lens and ignore all the context surrounding it, nothing would lead an average/critical reader to give it any weight. 12 dimensions were never genuinely introduced within the story, nor are there 12 speculative dimensions we can scale the aliens above. Qawsedf said there's other supporting evidence for 12-D stuff in latter storylines, so I'm interested in hearing about that.

Infinite-dimensional statement (surprised no one brought this up yet)​

This wasn't mentioned by the OP or any supporters, but as luck would have it, I read the Goku vs Superman 3 G1 predictions blog last night, and it linked this scan from the Kansas Sighting storyline deducing that the multiverse was infinite dimensional. As you can see, the main cast are questioning the reality of the alien abductions, and Dr. Berenson says that "as quantum physicists are learning, "real" is a word that can be bent in an infinite number of directions." Let's just cut to the chase: there's no context you can take from this statement to conclude the existence of something like infinite-dimensional space. The statement just means "there are infinite ways of understanding reality," hence why they theorize explanations for the alien sightings.

My conclusion is that you can't deduce anything from the Kansas Sighting Storyline outside the fact that collective unconscious aliens are transcendent beings, which is something we already accept since we tier J.M.'s collective unconscious as Low 1-C.

Infinite Hierarchy of Souls in Heaven​

I don't intend to begin this section with an "appeal to authority," but it's worth pointing out that these particular arguments were downgraded not too long ago by IdiosyncraticLawyer, and this CRT hasn't introduced any new supporting evidence or additional lines of reasoning than the exact same scans and arguments given previously. The scans for this hierarchy are mostly scattered, so I'll try addressing the basic premises.

There are limitless planes of existence in heaven, as many realms in heaven as there are souls, as many hells as there are Nerons, and many planes of existence.​

As IdiosyncraticLawyer said, the scans are clearly saying that each individual person's heaven is tailored to their belief system, which isn't evidence for some of them transcending the others, only that heaven gives each soul a different realm. Basically, they only state that there are different heavens for souls with different learning needs before reincarnation and implies no infinite hierarchy, and the word "beyond" is used too vaguely at certain points to glean any information from it about qualitative superiority. In other words, the different planes are mostly depicted as being parallel to one another.

The planes transcend one another because they were stated to be an infinite hierarchy of dreams within dreams.​

As Deagonx said, the scan about "truer and deeper dreams" is not best interpreted as an R>F layer.

The story is about a man named Robert who died, but instead of going to Heaven, he entered an ideal dream world where he got to live out the life that he always wanted to have. Spectre starts showing up and influencing the dream, to try to break Robert out of it. Spectre explains that sometimes souls who can't let go of their earthy lives enter these dream worlds before moving onto Heaven, but he had to intervene because Robert was stuck there.

When they arrive at the gates of Heaven, Robert asks if Heaven is also a dream, and Spectre gives this monologue:

"Call it a deeper dream... a truer dream. But there are more dreams still -- beyond it! And each deep dream thins the veil between you and the Divine Dreamer. Between the limited self you imagine you are -- and the infinite self you've always been. It's an adventure Robert. A journey of discovery... from lifetime to lifetime... dream to dream."

It's more about spiritual growth than it is meant to be interpreted as R>F layers that Robert (or all of humanity) are rising through. Spectre didn't plop down into a realm he considered fictional to pull Robert up into a "more real" level of reality. Letting go of the dream world was a step along the way of his spiritual growth. Deeper/Truer dream doesn't actually pertain to dreams within dreams, but the "correct" dreams you arrive to on a constant journey of transcendence.

But the idea is that everything is dreamt up by god, and deeper dreams place you closer to God until you achieve infinite power.​

Let's talk about R>F transcendence for a bit. Is it true that heaven as a whole has qualitative superiority over the material world? Yes, that's something we recognize.

Tiering: The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper than the Material World, giving 1 degree of infinity above Low 2-C, making Heaven and the Collective Unconscious Low 1-C.

Is it true that the Presence holds qualitative superiority over heaven and views it as part of his dream? Yes, we also recognize that.

Tiering: The Divine Presence is 1-C, as it transcends all of Creation and Pralaya infinitely, holding them as mere parts of its dream.

But the question is, does this same level of qualitative superiority apply to the "hierarchy" of deeper dreams and different planes in heaven? No, there is no evidence of a similar degree of R>F transcendence. The realms are constantly portrayed as having a finite difference between them. If we really want to nitpick, the distinction between one's "infinite/eternal soul" as it lies with the Presence and "finite material soul" actually works against the supporters. The fact that the true soul is "infinite" as it stands atop the hierarchy wouldn't amount to so much as a single level of infinity, as qualitative superiority means being more than infinitely greater than something. How can you argue for infinite higher infinities when the top of the hierarchy is portrayed as a single greater infinity at best?

My conclusion is that while heaven has clear R>F over the material world, and the Presence has clear R>F over heaven, there's is not enough evidence for similar R>F between the internal hierarchy of planes within heaven. Wording like "planes beyond" and "deeper dreams" are too vague to derive R>F or an uncountably infinite gap from, and even if we accepted the planes as layers rather than parallel worlds, they're frequently portrayed as having finite differences in scale. The infinite planes of heaven are clearly under a single level of infinity.

But the collective unconscious has its own infinite hierarchy? Living beings can create their own universes, which exist as a sequence of dreams (hierarchy), where one dream exists as someone else's dream, ad infinitum.​

My contention with this is the fact that the dreams of the collective unconscious aren't portrayed as existing within a hierarchy. For one thing, the word "hierarchy" isn't actually mentioned in the scan and the sequence of dreams is compared to a series of steps. As a matter of fact, the dreams are portrayed as neighboring universes. I'm shocked at myself for not having brought this up originally, but the dream universes are literally... wait for it: stated to exist in parallel. I shouldn't even have to elaborate from this point onwards. Being parallel is the exact opposite of what an actual higher dimension should be, and indisputably confirms that the universes exist on the same plane. At best, I'd liken it to statements where the different universes in DC are described as being fiction to another world's reality: not in the sense that universes transcend one another (they're verbatim said to exist in parallel under this scan too), but in the sense that all of existence can be interpreted as a shared set of stories that everyone contributes to.

Likewise, when the characters "dream each other" (like with a boy thinking a universe into existence which is visualized by him blowing a bubble, then an alien spectating that boy through a crystal ball), it's best interpreted as contributing to the greater collective unconscious by applying their dreams as elements to something else's archetype. "Dreaming each other" just introduces more confusion to the notion of a hierarchy because it's like... does dream-1 view dream-2 as fiction, or is it the other way around? This section was short, so I don't need to write a conclusion, but interpreting the collective unconscious as a hierarchy is extremely unreliable.

But Marvel gained upgrades for the same thing? ​

False equivalence. In the Omniverse section of Ultima's cosmology blog, he provides clear evidence for an infinite sequence of dreams within dreams, worlds within worlds, that actually encompass each other and transcend/contain lower ones as mere thought.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I was pretty much in the notion of a short summary of our parts. Hm.

Also, I like to notion of Heaven hierarchy was not debunked. A person decides to interpret something that has nothing to do with the scan.

As above, the person made their point, if Ant would I can dismantle such notions since there are so many contextual issues missing. The main points are supplementary to the notion of our tiers rather than how the story reflects our tiering system. Given that Matteis has written all his stories the same and Marvel is no different in how he writes in DC.

 

[Deagonx]

I largely agree with Profectus

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Let's talk about that statement. After news of the alien abductions gains public traction, a crowd of nutjobs and conspiracy theorists gather around Herbert Moore's house awaiting alien arrivals. One lunatic in underpants and a red alien suit harasses Mr. Moore, and asks him to take them and the crowd to the 12th dimension in an entranced tone. You even have more reasonable people in the crowd being sarcastic about his antics. This interaction took place in the second issue of the storyline, on the page indexed in the scan.

To put it simply, this statement wasn't depicted as something meant to be taken seriously. You have to read the issue to understand it, otherwise I might come off as "oh, I'll just dismiss statements at random," but let me illustrate as best I can. As I said, the guy who made the statement was a lunatic, which is something onlookers acknowledge. It wasn't like knowledgeable characters were speculating higher dimensions, and it wasn't like 12 dimensions were confirmed to exist by godly or otherwise reliable sources. Hell, the interaction with the nutjob wasn't even portrayed as a cuckoolander was right sort of trope. In no manner whatsoever was the 12-D statement depicted by the author as something genuinely pertaining to cosmology. A better way to phrase it is that unless you're viewing this scan strictly through a power scaling lens and ignore all the context surrounding it, nothing would lead an average/critical reader to give it any weight. 12 dimensions were never genuinely introduced within the story, nor are there 12 speculative dimensions we can scale the aliens above. Qawsedf said there's other supporting evidence for 12-D stuff in latter storylines, so I'm interested in hearing about that.

I disagree with this and I do think 12D should apply.

Although I agree the person who said it was some random, at the same time the story portrays it as what the random "lunatic" is saying is what is actually the case.

What I mean is the people didn't take the man seriously, but it just so happens that what he's been saying is true. There's a character who hosted a TV show talking about conspiracies and aliens, and it just so happens that what he was saying was true even though he didn't believe it.

So I don't think the author intended that to just be a random throwaway statement, rather just a precursor to what's to come, something that's true. So it's not something we can just handwave.

As for the dream hierarchy, I don't feel too strongly about it since I haven't looked into it.

 

[Bastolan27]

I was pretty much in the notion of a short summary of our parts. Hm.

Also, I like to notion of Heaven hierarchy was not debunked. A person decides to interpret something that has nothing to do with the scan.

As above, the person made their point, if Ant would I can dismantle such notions since there are so many contextual issues missing. The main points are supplementary to the notion of our tiers rather than how the story reflects our tiering system. Given that Matteis has written all his stories the same and Marvel is no different in how he writes in DC.

You can edit your post and add the context; if not, you are going to lose your chance of getting your arguments accepted.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

You can edit your post and add the context; if not, you are going to lose your chance of getting your arguments accepted.

I've said it already. I don't think I should be dismissed over that. Knowing Ant, he might side with the others especially if Deagon agrees with the opposition.

I'll just wait for the approval. If so, then I’ll respond to Infinity. For now, we wait.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

DC, at the very least, deserves and should be High 1-B.

yeah

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Oh btw i am in full agreement with the OP