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WHO AM I?Ik who your referring to, but just imagine someone not knowing who toddler is reading that lmao
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WHO AM I?Ik who your referring to, but just imagine someone not knowing who toddler is reading that lmao
In this case, all this would make sense if your text did not contradict the very nature of the aliens and the description of their existence and position within the framework of the reality structure of dreams that were given further in the course of the comic book narrative, making Superman's feelings and statements confirm his own words and confirmations. That is, Superman’s words do not contradict this context and description in any way, so I don’t see any point in not taking them into account if they quite accurately fit in with subsequent events and the cosmological structure of illusions/dreams in Demmateis’s comics, which I will describe below. In fact, reality in Dematteis cosmology is an illusion, the ideas of which are taken from the doctrine of Hinduism, in which the entire multiverse (there really is a multiverse) is nothing more than a dream of the supreme God.I feel like this is one of those instances I was talking about where "more real" is used as something of a buzzword. I just finished reading Superman: The Kansas Sighting, and throughout this story, there are mysterious alien/u.f.o. sightings which lead to moments where the main cast is abducted. All this fluff about how "this dream is truer than reality" is literally... just characters like Superman trying to comprehend if the repeated alien abductions are illusions, then concluding at times of reflection that what they thought were dreams are actually "more real than anything they've ever known..." in the sense that these illusions hit them on a personal level, like with the illusion of a Jor-El manifestation that makes Superman question if his life on earth was a pretense. This story is being taken tremendously out of context.
Yes, this is a statement from a mad crowd. Which subsequently, according to the comic book narrative, is confirmed by Superman himself and the aliens that the term dimension is used in this world. He, again, does not contradict these words and the statement about its existence. I would not use it unless it was confirmed further. Although, even if the term twelve dimensions exists in their world, then it can still exist as a cosmological systemYup, this solidifies it. The whole storyline is being taken massively out of context. At the moment of this scan, the Kansas sightings for aliens and u.f.o.'s draws a large crowd around Herbert Moore's property, and this crowd begins spitting delusions and conspiracy theories regarding aliens. The whole "12 dimensions stuff" is just a rando stereotyping the aliens as extra-dimensional beings, and not a statement on cosmology. Seriously, reread this scan while taking my assessment into consideration. With that out of the way, it seems the main crutch for a higher dimensional cosmology is gone.
This is your opinion, which does not fit with the cosmology and plot of the comic, in which aliens are not physical beings and are not creatures from our universe at all. Yes, and in this way you can destroy any confirmation, considering it a buzzwordBuzzwords about the aliens being indescribable/mysterious, I don't even think this could suffice as supporting evidence.
I already wrote about this, the use of the term dimension in their universe was confirmed by Superman and the Aliens, when Superman received the answer that aliens are from other dimensions to the previous answer of the aliens about the deep levels of reality2. The whole 2-issue Kansas Sighting storyline used as a basis for much of the OP is being taken massively out of context. For one thing, the "12-dimensional aliens" statement has nothing to do with cosmology, and is just a random nutjob shouting spiel and conspiracies in a manner like this.
Mistake again. They are the creation of an unconscious person who can create his own universe using will and imagination, and which may be more real than another universe. Reality is an illusion, and aliens are more real than illusion, and are on a higher level of existence, and a deeper level of reality. No illusion could exist, because illusion is equivalent to reality in which aliens do not exist3. Adding onto that last point, the aliens don't have R>F over the universe either. To contextualize the "dream more real than reality" stuff, the main cast is abducted by aliens in instances which they assert to be illusions, but further assert to be "more real than anything they've known" because these illusions hit them on a personal level.
I'm not seeing the scans in the op though?This and previous threads contain so much evidence of qualitative superiority that it’s just funny to me how you try to deny absolutely everything without any clear arguments, simply because you don’t want to accept it.
You can't just say "No, that won't work" while there are a ton of scans that prove a qualitative difference.
Sometimes it seems to me (like many other wikis and social networks) that this wiki is deliberately trying to downgrade DC Universe, using so many little things in its attempts to downgrade. I have not seen such a high level of detailed predications in other threads as in DC.
Like I said before, at this point, the arguments sound like special pleading to a degree. I've seen this line of reasoning come up on various upgrades, and it's a large misinterpretation of what skeptics actually want. Nobody's saying you need to namedrop every vsbw terminology to gain higher tiers, we're saying that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You can't just say "my interpretation is reliable because it just is," an interpretation is only reliable when it viably rules out alternate interpretations. Seriously, I've never undestood this complaint. "You can't expect the author to have given us [insert specific required evidence], he doesn't write like that." The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. There are plenty of verses that are inches away from gaining large upgrades, but fail because the author writes too metaphysically/child-friendly to drop the specific keywords needed to gain upgrades. I don't see why exceptions should be made. If the evidence isn't reliable enough for the site standards, it is what it is.You don't see the authors randomly say “that beings are dimensional superior” with the intent of trying to match something that the Wiki comes by. That's simply how Matteis writes with the Dream logic. Most authors write how they think and I do not believe they reference VSBW's work of dimensional tiering as a justification of what they meant by superior, more real, higher, etc…
Source?I've literally asked him do planes transcend each other to insignificant and he said yes, and all planes, and everything else me as nothing to God. The closer you are to him, the more power you have, and the higher state of consciousness you achieve.
At the highest end, this would mean that God had R>F over the highest layer of the dream, whose bottom layer has R>F over creation. It seems like the individual layers have a strictly finite difference in scale. Deagonx's interpretation I cited before about spiritual growth seems more reliable. At any rate, the pressing issue is that the evidence starts and ends at "they view everything as a dream." We don't give out R>F transcendence simply for evidence of a medium that would allow one to view something as qualitatively inferior, you need additional supporting evidence for an inaccessible gap. We've never given "they view that world as if it were inside a comic book" R>F without additional supporting evidence for said comic book's contents being inferior, nothingness, or at the very least higher beings acheiving something like casual plot manipulation.You seem to miss the point of “more real.” The idea is that everything is an illusion dreamt up by God. Thus the reality happening in the Dream is nothing but a mere illusory sense before coming closer to God. To go beyond the Gross Plane and transcend material to the Sutble and Mental realm where you achieve infinite power, knowledge, and bliss accounts for higher planes that completely disregard the body's needs for physicalness.
Moving on...Qualifiers
In order to qualify they must view the world as a some actual form of 'fiction', i.e. to them what happens in the fiction is not real and of no physical consequence to their being and also otherwise is of no greater consequence to their being than an actual fictional character could reasonably be to a real life human. However, the medium in which they view the world as fiction generally does not matter, as it being fiction is enough for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence to be considered.
Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority. Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane and not necessarily the fiction in itself.
In edge cases, where it is unclear whether a depiction qualifies as truly viewing a world as fiction, the most important deciding factor is whether the depiction justifies an assumption of qualitative superiority for the same reasons as the above mentioned general cases. I.e. one should ask oneself: Is it by nature of the depiction likely that nothing that happens in the 'fictional world', no matter how powerful, could affect the 'real world' due to the fictional nature of the former?
I could have left some context out of the story in my explanation, but sure, let's go with that. Indeed, the alien mental abductions were theorized by Superman to be phenomena from the collective unconscious. The problem is, if you were to agree with the collective unconscious at any level having R>F over creation, the fact that the collective unconscious transcends everything would be a given, and therefore amount to nothing beyond a single R>F transcendence (+1 dimensional gap).That's only slightly true. Seekers dwell in beings beyond just humans comprehending their nature as God living limitless lifetimes. They must seek the journey of self-individualization that they are the Primal Ocean of Oneness and that they are God. So feeling a personal sense of knowledge is part of that experience. Nevertheless, the interconnection point of Stuble and Gross is where they achieve all the powers of God, of the Oversoul.
Superman's experience speaks for himself as would anyone. To them, they feel and seem real but as they journey to higher planes, they realize the past is less real and then above that would feel less real. It works until they realize only God is the real reality and that they are God dreaming of Creation. If a UFO landing there means a way of understanding it then it's part of the journey to gain knowledge. Has nothing to do with higher planes being more real doesn't mean superiority, when the context of the story presents “more real” as analogous to being more superior.
I knew someone would make an argument like this. I couldn't figure out how to explain the 12-D statement any better, hence why I compared it with this scene, but at this point, I'll have to address the staff members reviewing this thread specifically.Like every theorist? They don't have proof, they theorize. Humans can think of what they meant and the story depicts them as human.
As I said before, if we were to agree that the Aliens are transcendent beings by virtue of being manifested from the collective unconscious, that would just result in the collective unconscious being transcendent of reality, which we already accept to an extent? At best, the collective unconsious being a higher plane would add a single layer of infinity to the cosmology.In this case, all this would make sense if your text did not contradict the very nature of the aliens and the description of their existence and position within the framework of the reality structure of dreams that were given further in the course of the comic book narrative, making Superman's feelings and statements confirm his own words and confirmations. That is, Superman’s words do not contradict this context and description in any way, so I don’t see any point in not taking them into account if they quite accurately fit in with subsequent events and the cosmological structure of illusions/dreams in Demmateis’s comics, which I will describe below. In fact, reality in Dematteis cosmology is an illusion, the ideas of which are taken from the doctrine of Hinduism, in which the entire multiverse (there really is a multiverse) is nothing more than a dream of the supreme God.
As Darkseid confirms You of all people should understand that what most take as reality is an illusion
These aliens (we'll call them that for simplicity) are residents of a deeper level of reality. Yes, Superman confirms that this is not an illusion at all, and as I argued just above, the illusion is reality in DeMatteis's cosmological position. And this fits perfectly with the subsequent statements about the levels of reality in which aliens exist.
Further, I don’t know why you didn’t pay attention to the fact that the Universe is a hologram projected from the mind (you didn’t describe it at all), which already confirms the status of these aliens and proves their existential position.. All this ties in perfectly with the comic book about Green Lantern, where he, in his individual unconscious, created the universe using his will and imagination, projecting a hologram from his own mind. Yes, we literally get the same interpretations by the authors without any changes, as if it were the same comic released in the same year. Any of his words and statements are interconnected and do not change in any way over the course of many years.
Further in the story we learn that these are not aliens at all, but creatures created from the unconscious of people, they are very real manifestations and reflections of the unconscious person. The universes created are individual unconscious even much more real than the previous ones (in the context of the Justice League leaving their universe into the unconscious) That for them have as much actuality probably more so as the called real universe we've left behind.
Thus, it turns out that these aliens are the creation of an unconscious person, who can create universes with his mind, which may be more real than others, and which, for the inhabitants inside, are no different from illusions.
Man creates the universe in a dream, which is the dream of another man creating his own universe, and all this is the dream of God
Non sequitor. The ramblings from the lunatic and this interaction between Superman and the illusions have nothing to do with each other. It's not like Superman says, "so you guys are really 12-D" then the aliens respond "we're something beyond that." He justs asks if they're from a higher dimension to which they respond that dimension doesn't even begin to describe the level of reality they exist in.Yes, this is a statement from a mad crowd. Which subsequently, according to the comic book narrative, is confirmed by Superman himself and the aliens that the term dimension is used in this world. He, again, does not contradict these words and the statement about its existence. I would not use it unless it was confirmed further. Although, even if the term twelve dimensions exists in their world, then it can still exist as a cosmological system
You asserting such indiscretion of what “undeniable proof” is nothing more than just wanting something that wasn't going to be provided in the context of, VSBW terminology and not the comic book supplementary lore to which we base off interpretation.Like I said before, at this point, the arguments sound like special pleading to a degree. I've seen this line of reasoning come up on various upgrades, and it's a large misinterpretation of what skeptics actually want. Nobody's saying you need to namedrop every vsbw terminology to gain higher tiers, we're saying that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You can't just say "my interpretation is reliable because it just is," an interpretation is only reliable when it viably rules out alternate interpretations. Seriously, I've never undestood this complaint. "You can't expect the author to have given us [insert specific required evidence], he doesn't write like that." The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. There are plenty of verses that are inches away from gaining large upgrades, but fail because the author writes too metaphysically/child-friendly to drop the specific keywords needed to gain upgrades. I don't see why exceptions should be made. If the evidence isn't reliable enough for the site standards, it is what it is.
OP and the comics very much are the source(citation from the source material). Asking for more proof is not necessary unless you think every scan needs another look because your views on it seem to be different.Source?
You agree with Deagon as “more reliable” doesn't make it true since he also seems to miss the point. As I've mentioned spiritual growth pertains to the person and not the realms they passed. As such every soul has their own interpretation of Heaven, it does not make theirs any turner or real than say the next person.At the highest end, this would mean that God had R>F over the highest layer of the dream, whose bottom layer has R>F over creation. It seems like the individual layers have a strictly finite difference in scale. Deagonx's interpretation I cited before about spiritual growth seems more reliable. At any rate, the pressing issue is that the evidence starts and ends at "they view everything as a dream." We don't give out R>F transcendence simply for evidence of a medium that would allow one to view something as qualitatively inferior, you need additional supporting evidence for an inaccessible gap. We've never given "they view that world as if it were inside a comic book" R>F without additional supporting evidence for said comic book's contents being inferior, nothingness, or at the very least higher beings acheiving something like casual plot manipulation.
As Superman had said in #1 the Universe is endless. These creatures were referred to as “Aliens” and were more real due to the fact they came from a higher form of reality. The Collective Unconcious is the collection of all imagination across sentient minds forming an ocean of dreams creating universes from simply their wills and thoughts.Moving on...
I could have left some context out of the story in my explanation, but sure, let's go with that. Indeed, the alien mental abductions were theorized by Superman to be phenomena from the collective unconscious. The problem is, if you were to agree with the collective unconscious at any level having R>F over creation, the fact that the collective unconscious transcends everything would be a given, and therefore amount to nothing beyond a single R>F transcendence (+1 dimensional gap).
You're putting a lot of subjectiveness on a scan that's meant to illicitly explain higher form.I knew someone would make an argument like this. I couldn't figure out how to explain the 12-D statement any better, hence why I compared it with this scene, but at this point, I'll have to address the staff members reviewing this thread specifically.
The statement comes from Superman: The Kansas Sighting, which is a 2-issue storyline released in 2003. We're not allowed to link read comic online .li last I heard, but it won't be hard to find online with a quick google search. The statement comes from halfway down the site page, under scans labeled for pages 27 to 29. As I said before, a crowd of lunatics gathers around Mr. Moore's house and starts spouting theories about alien invaders, with one of them theorizing that the aliens are extradimensional beings, 12-dimensional to be exact. I don't know how to put this without constantly repeating myself, but unless you're someone reading these issues strictly through a power scaling lens, there's nothing that would remotely allow one to conclude that this statement was meant to be taken seriously. This isn't a matter of "maybe the angle DeMatteis was trying to get at was that the aliens could be 12-dimensional, or infinite dimensional, or higher outerversal" and whatnot. Full stop, the statement from the actual issue isn't deep, and was strictly portrayed as a madman being crazy about aliens. It's not just "wow, you're being so picky about the statements," in no capacity whatsoever was this statement meant to be taken seriously. For real, just look at this scan realistically. Not through a power scaling lens or "we can get upgrades out of this" mindset, but through a purely neutral lense.
They literally stated that they project from that dreamt of them which at the same time is being projected by the people. It works both ways but one thing is true, they are higher beings in the deeper layer of the Dream.As I said before, if we were to agree that the Aliens are transcendent beings by virtue of being manifested from the collective unconscious, that would just result in the collective unconscious being transcendent of reality, which we already accept to an extent? At best, the collective unconsious being a higher plane would add a single layer of infinity to the cosmology.
Dimension is a concept that the mind makes. At the time, no one could comprehend them, it makes sense that they surpassed dimensionality and said the concept would limit them if lower beings applied that concept. I don't get this point on how it denies evidence of a hierarchy.Non sequitor. The ramblings from the lunatic and this interaction between Superman and the illusions have nothing to do with each other. It's not like Superman says, "so you guys are really 12-D" then the aliens respond "we're something beyond that." He justs asks if they're from a higher dimension to which they respond that dimension doesn't even begin to describe the level of reality they exist in.
That's the point. I argue for mine and you argue for yours. The majority consensus seems to favor it, staff can have their way. It will be discussed more and more to maybe reach smaller agreements.This will probably go in circles, so I'm just waiting for staff review at this point. If they find your interpretation more reliable, splendid. If they agree with mine, wonderful. Either way, we most likely won't be reaching an agreement.
I agree more so with the OP.@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeTwo @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @LephyrTheRevanchist @Lightning_XXI @Stefano4444 @LuciferX @Vasco @Excel616 @Immortalgodd @JohnCenaNation @VeryGoofyToddler @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @Catzlaflame @Robo432343 @VeryGoofyToddler @Lonkitt @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0 @DarkDragonMedeus
What do you think about this?
All right then, I'll see what I can add.That's the point. I argue for mine and you argue for yours. The majority consensus seems to favor it, staff can have their way. It will be discussed more and more to maybe reach smaller agreements.
As I conceded before, it's obvious that the collective unconscious aliens in the Kansas Sighting storyline were intended to be depicted as higher dimensional beings. Out of curiosity though, I took a glance at what our cosmology page says about the collective unconscious under J.M. DeMatteis cosmology.I think it would be very odd to argue that these entities aren't intended as higher-dimensional, abstract beings if you actually read the comic. I would recommend everyone to actually read it for more clarity.
Herein lies the issue. The most reliable interpretation you can make of these scans is that the collective unconscious has basic R>F over all of creation. However, we already recognize that, so nothing changes from that acknowledgement.Tiering: The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper than the Material World, giving 1 degree of infinity above Low 2-C, making Heaven and the Collective Unconscious Low 1-C.
I'm not necessarily against Heaven being 1-A or the mortal plane being 12-Dimensional (the latter has some supporting quotes in future stories), but I'll have to read through all the responses first before I give a weigh in.What do you think about this?
From reading the OP, it seems to check out, and further fleshes out the already excepted scans depicting the deeper levels of reality/layers of dreams.
God and Creation. By factor, possibly Pralaya.To which characters would this apply?
A person's dream? People see universes like dreams in endless recursionGod and Creation. By factor, possibly Pralaya.
I have already described and proved the infinite hierarchy of dreams, where a dream is only a dream of another dream. Why this is not accepted, barring some kind of hostility or unwillingness to accept this evidence, I don’t know.From reading the OP, it seems to check out, and further fleshes out the already excepted scans depicting the deeper levels of reality/layers of dreams.
However, I think it's probably best for a revision that largely relies on R>F/unreality gaps to take place once Ultima's thread is concluded, since the quantifications and qualifications for said gaps are likely going to change.
Edit: Oh and one other thing, if these scans are determined to only qualify for their currently accepted level, they still should be added to cosmology blog to further support its conclusions imo.
Creation as in the Dream itself. “Multiverse, Creation, Omniverse, Dream, etc…” the one that God dreamed of.A person's dream? People see universes like dreams in endless recursion
You’re right it’s not High 1-B, it would be something greater.Because it does not mean high 1-B.
H1B is infinite spatial dimensions or its equivalent i.e. infinite levels with each one having an uncountable infinite difference between them
Yeah, but I mean it's all recursion.Creation as in the Dream itself. “Multiverse, Creation, Omniverse, Dream, etc…” the one that God dreamed of.
I was referring to the entire Dream, not the individual ones in the hierarchy but the very one that God dreamt of. The entire “Cosmology” or the entirety of the Illusion.Yeah, but I mean it's all recursion.
There is a universe, which is a man’s dream, and this man’s dream is another man’s dream, and along the way to approaching God, there is an individual Heaven, where the higher planes have no meaning, and all this endless recursion or hierarchy is just a dream of God.
OkI was referring to the entire Dream, not the individual ones in the hierarchy but the very one that God dreamt of. The entire “Cosmology” or the entirety of the Illusion.
All these links are broken.VeryGoofyToddler
I don’t know if these scans were posted on this Wiki, but it’s worth a look as additional proofs of cosmology
The soul is infinite and eternal. There are as many Hells as there are Nerons. When you wake up from sleep, you replace one dream with another. And at the basis of all reality, dreams and universes lies the Void that wafts through the minds of gods and people, this is where universes begin and where they end. The soul in this emptiness begins to dissolve
That is, they directly tell us that when you wake up from sleep, you will still find yourself in another dream, since all creation is a dream
Superman: The Man of Tomorrow #16
I argue that the Dream has a hierarchy that goes with at least being 1-B. Though we are arguing for the fact that Creation can be seen as High 1-B.@ProfectusInfinity @VeryGoofyToddler
Can each of you explain the respective sides of the arguments here in single posts please?
I fixed itAll these links are broken.
Why 1-B? What if we have evidence that dream hierarchies are infinite?I argue that the Dream has a hierarchy that goes with at least being 1-B. Though we are arguing for the fact that Creation can be seen as High 1-B.
- The Dream is endlessly layered throughout the limitless planes of Existence
- Material has at least 12 dimensions of the dimensional coordinate.
- Each plane is transcended by the next as long as the Soul keeps journeying to find individualization.
- Every little decision of the will makes an entire universe conjure up with its own dreams. That each dream is being dreamed by the next.
- Higher planes have a higher existence to being beyond anything of the lower to evoke R>F quality for each level being transcendent.
- Each realm invokes an infinite quantity/or quality. Such as the Kingdom of Now and every little Heaven and the different layers of Heaven for different Souls in different stages.
I said at minimum if they don't accept the given tiers. 1-B is the lowest interpretation, not at all what I propose as the final summary.Why 1-B? What if we have evidence that dream hierarchies are infinite?
>And the fact of the matter is there's really no such things as the end.
Sure, I'll explain my disagreement with the main arguments used.@ProfectusInfinity @VeryGoofyToddler
Can each of you explain the respective sides of the arguments here in single posts please?
Tiering: The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper than the Material World, giving 1 degree of infinity above Low 2-C, making Heaven and the Collective Unconscious Low 1-C.
Transcending dimensions is an NLF statement that only grants you a single level of infinity over the number of dimensions shown to exist for a verse.Q: What tier is transcending dimensions?
A: As specified above, a "dimension" is nothing more than a set of values representing a given direction within a system, and a multi-dimensional space can itself be thought of as a multiplication of several "copies" of these sets. For instance, the 3-dimensional space in which we live is often visualized as the set of all 3-tuples of real numbers (Thus, taking its values from the real number line, R), and is thus the result of the iterated multiplication: R x R x R = R³, likewise, 4-dimensional space is the set of all 4-tuples of real numbers, and is thus equal to R x R x R x R = R⁴, and so on and so forth.
Practically speaking, this means that there is no limit for the number of dimensions which a space can have whatsoever, and one can construct spaces whose dimension corresponds to any cardinal number, including the infinite ones mentioned above. It is not even necessary for us to restrict ourselves to values taken from the real numbers, either: It is also possible to define the space of all n-tuples of cardinal numbers (Which takes its values from V, the class of all sets)
As a result, it is not at all feasible to take any statements involving a character existing "beyond dimensions" at face value, as this would lead to extremely inflated ratings largely dependent on No-Limits Fallacies. Therefore, such descriptors are to be evaluated while taking into account the number of dimensions which the verse has been shown to entertain; for example, a character stated to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context.
Is it true that the Presence holds qualitative superiority over heaven and views it as part of his dream? Yes, we also recognize that.Tiering: The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper than the Material World, giving 1 degree of infinity above Low 2-C, making Heaven and the Collective Unconscious Low 1-C.
But the question is, does this same level of qualitative superiority apply to the "hierarchy" of deeper dreams and different planes in heaven? No, there is no evidence of a similar degree of R>F transcendence. The realms are constantly portrayed as having a finite difference between them. If we really want to nitpick, the distinction between one's "infinite/eternal soul" as it lies with the Presence and "finite material soul" actually works against the supporters. The fact that the true soul is "infinite" as it stands atop the hierarchy wouldn't amount to so much as a single level of infinity, as qualitative superiority means being more than infinitely greater than something. How can you argue for infinite higher infinities when the top of the hierarchy is portrayed as a single greater infinity at best?Tiering: The Divine Presence is 1-C, as it transcends all of Creation and Pralaya infinitely, holding them as mere parts of its dream.
I disagree with this and I do think 12D should apply.Let's talk about that statement. After news of the alien abductions gains public traction, a crowd of nutjobs and conspiracy theorists gather around Herbert Moore's house awaiting alien arrivals. One lunatic in underpants and a red alien suit harasses Mr. Moore, and asks him to take them and the crowd to the 12th dimension in an entranced tone. You even have more reasonable people in the crowd being sarcastic about his antics. This interaction took place in the second issue of the storyline, on the page indexed in the scan.
To put it simply, this statement wasn't depicted as something meant to be taken seriously. You have to read the issue to understand it, otherwise I might come off as "oh, I'll just dismiss statements at random," but let me illustrate as best I can. As I said, the guy who made the statement was a lunatic, which is something onlookers acknowledge. It wasn't like knowledgeable characters were speculating higher dimensions, and it wasn't like 12 dimensions were confirmed to exist by godly or otherwise reliable sources. Hell, the interaction with the nutjob wasn't even portrayed as a cuckoolander was right sort of trope. In no manner whatsoever was the 12-D statement depicted by the author as something genuinely pertaining to cosmology. A better way to phrase it is that unless you're viewing this scan strictly through a power scaling lens and ignore all the context surrounding it, nothing would lead an average/critical reader to give it any weight. 12 dimensions were never genuinely introduced within the story, nor are there 12 speculative dimensions we can scale the aliens above. Qawsedf said there's other supporting evidence for 12-D stuff in latter storylines, so I'm interested in hearing about that.
You can edit your post and add the context; if not, you are going to lose your chance of getting your arguments accepted.I was pretty much in the notion of a short summary of our parts. Hm.
Also, I like to notion of Heaven hierarchy was not debunked. A person decides to interpret something that has nothing to do with the scan.
As above, the person made their point, if Ant would I can dismantle such notions since there are so many contextual issues missing. The main points are supplementary to the notion of our tiers rather than how the story reflects our tiering system. Given that Matteis has written all his stories the same and Marvel is no different in how he writes in DC.
I've said it already. I don't think I should be dismissed over that. Knowing Ant, he might side with the others especially if Deagon agrees with the opposition.You can edit your post and add the context; if not, you are going to lose your chance of getting your arguments accepted.
yeahDC, at the very least, deserves and should be High 1-B.