DBZ Tiering

[SomebodyData]

So uh, after talking to some people in chat, it seems I used too much fancy mumbo jumbo to explain my position, so I'll try to make it more... uh... easy to read.

What I was trying to point out is the following.

-4th form 2.5% = base Goku because (low ball) KKx20 Goku = 50% 4th form

-Piccolo = 2nd Form Frieza <<< 3rd Form Frieza < 2.5% Fourth Form Frieza.

-In order for Fourth Form Frieza at 50% = Star level, Frieza 2.5% Fourth Form = 10x 1st form Frieza.

So the gap really isn't that huge. (mind you this is a low ball, as I believe that Frieza said he was at 1% in his fourth form during his fight against Base Goku)

Basically, it isn't as far-fetched as some believe for 4th form Frieza to be at Star level.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It doesn't really matter if it's far fetched or not. Unless you can have scaling from 4-B, you can't have High 4-C. That's more or less against our rules. At best we can have Low 4-C but just pilling up such upgrades to reach High 4-C doesn't quite work.

For example, even with stated numbers of times of stronger, we could only get "Likely 7-C " for Kars, but anything higher despite stated amount wasn't accepted.

 

[SomebodyData]

Actually no. Basically anyone who can beat 100% 4th form Frieza would likely be High 4-C as the size of 4-C is ultra small.

multiple times stronger than 8-A = 7-C. Not sure why you're even bringing it up. But I'll have you know, that using your logic, he would be At least 8-A instead of Likely 7-C.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, I was talking to Ryu, we can't get High 7-A Ragyo even though she has similar boosts on a tier gap that's almost as small.

 

[Antoniofer]

I only undestood the half of that but I think that I got it, however, without any reference, there no way to know if 4th form Frieza (or DBZ characters prior the Namek Saga) are Star level. Other think that I noted is that any multiplier, like KK or SSJ, increase the PL base, even if isn't lineal... that confuse me a little

 

[SomebodyData]

Also how big are said boosts? (like 2x, 3x, etc?) at both of you.

 

[Ryukama]

@Cal well in Ragyo's case there aren't official, canon and stated multipliers. So this instance isn't quite the same.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Again you're using stated numbers to climb the verse from High 5-A to High 4-C. Much like calc stacking, none of them have shown feats anywhere near this level yet you still put them there due to "calcing" their level with multipliers. That's why Kars' Tier was limited to "likely 7-C" instead of going into Tier 6.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Isn't quite, correct, but other than Kaio-ken (which I don't know why we use multiplies for even though we don't use multipliers for SSJ or PL's), we don't use multipliers for the things that are giving him the boost.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Also how big are said boosts? (like 2x, 3x, etc?) at both of you.

Super Saiyan is 50

Super Saiyan 2 is... 2

Super Saiyan 3 is 4? (Wait what?)

And KK varies (Tho regular KK is most likely something like 1.5 or something)

 

[SomebodyData]

@Saik....

What?

Are you legitimately comparing this to Kars not going to Tier 6 from being several times stronger than an 8-A character?!

@Cal and Ryu I see.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Aiden i was talking about KLK

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Kars has statement about being a million times stronger than his 7-C form, which would place him at Tier 6. But it didn't happen because it would be just stacking up to ridiculous level.

Similarly to what you are doing with DBZ. Going from High 5-A to High 4-C.

 

[Antoniofer]

@Howard, I'm not sure either, I mean, Base Goku has a power of 3M and with KKx20 he has one of 60M according to the guides, and people said that that increase the speed and strength in a lineal way; however, PL's Goku SSJ is 150M, and yet people say that his strength and speed didn't increased in a lineal way...

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I thought we don't use multipliers except kaioken, so i don't see how anyone gets out of the low 4-C range as they don't have the feats to support that.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Kars has statement about being a million times stronger than his 7-C form, which would place him at Tier 6. But it didn't happen because it would be just stacking up to ridiculous level.

Similarly to what you are doing with DBZ. Going from High 5-A to High 4-C.

A million times stronger sounds a bit like flowery language, but then again, so does using 1%/50% of your true power.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Celestial other than KK we're using statements.

@Saik a million times stronger? You do know that it makes it sound that his stats weren't based on ignoring the multipliers, rather based on the fact that it sounds like hyperbole....

@Antonio what?

 

[SomebodyData]

@Cal this is from daizenshuu (not power levels in case anyone mistakes them)

If we went from what Frieza said, I would have used 1% rather than 2.5% (the mathematical number)

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's still taken into account, just not used for his actual stats due to being more or less stacking.

Much like putting people at solid High 4-C from High 5-A multipliers doesn't quite work.

 

[Antoniofer]

@SD, I was asking why the PL increment is directly proportional with KK but pontentially proportional with SSJ, when both increase the PL in a lineal and direct way

 

[SomebodyData]

@Saik

You mean like Undertale stats and etc?

See the difference is that this a mathematical difference, based on Frieza.

Unless you want to go with the idea that 2x stronger =/= 2x stronger.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not saying that I agree with how Undertale is handled. Beside we only used it to scale down from a Low 7-C feats. People much higher that feat got 7-C at best, even then I do not really agree.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Ant no one knows the functions of Power levels, I don't think anyone can explain that (unless it multiplies power levels and actual capabilities, though that's kinda weird)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Personally, I doubt the UT low tier scaling too.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Honestly we probably need some strict regulations about such things in the first place, to avoid to cite examples from other franchises.

 

[Ryukama]

@Saikou but you did just that with Kars...

 

[SomebodyData]

I would suppose so.

Although, technically there's a difference with the UT stats and the reasoning of the DBZ stats (that being the DBZ reasoning being linear, where the UT ones aren't confirmed to be)

But alas this discussion goes beyond the two franchises like you said.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah but I don't really like doing that, hence why we probably need more rules about this.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

He was using Kara as an example, like I did with Ragyo.

 

[Antoniofer]

Is true that we unknown the function of PL, we only use them to scale, but there are two power-ups that works in the same way (KKxA= PL base xA and SSJ = PL base x 50), and still we consider both like very different

 

[SomebodyData]

We don't use PLs to scale. Or anything really.

 

[Ryukama]

@Saikou alright but you still see why you cannot criticize others for doing and ask for rule regulations against things that you yourself are doing. Right? It is rather hypocritical and unproductive.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I wasn't critizing anyone, just saying that the lack of rules about it makes it hard to debate about the validity of the scaling without mentioning other franchises.

 

[Antoniofer]

We don't? we can't give them a number cuz would be calc staking, but we can tell who is stronger than the other, at least in base

 

[Ryukama]

@Saikou Examples are not inheritly a bad thing. Quite the opposite in many instances. There shouldn't be a rule against doing so IMO. Rather making sure the comparisons are actually valid.

And telling someone you were arguing with who made examples and that what he is saying should be regulated. While you yourself are doing it as well. Still does not settle right with me.

However this thread is getting horribly derailed and that topic should be dropped.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I..wasn't saying that.

I was saying there should be concrete rules around the use of Multipliers for having new Tier like in this case, so I won't have to use examples from other franchises., which does not always works in the same way, in this debate.

 

[LordAizenSama]

'''Stop. Derailing. The thread.'''

 

[SomebodyData]

Anyways, it seems that the objective in the op has finished

If Saikou wants to, I guess make a rule against this kind of thing, it would have to be in a thread the revolves around that topic on a universal (not dbz) level. Should this be closed?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well maybe not neccarly "against", but more like to regulates it. But I guess so.

 

[LordXcano]

It doesn't really matter if it's far fetched or not. Unless you can have scaling from 4-B, you can't have High 4-C. That's more or less against our rules. At best we can have Low 4-C but just pilling up such upgrades to reach High 4-C doesn't quite work.
For example, even with stated numbers of times of stronger, we could only get "Likely 7-C " for Kars, but anything higher despite stated amount wasn't accepted.

We upgraded Toriko to FTL for people blitzing lightspeed characters, this is the same thing just with attack.