DBZ Speed Revisions

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So, as far as I know, most of the DBZ speeds going from the Saiyan Saga to Frieza Saga (or farther) are based on applying multipliers to the initial calced speed of Piccolo's moon blast, which resulted in 0.07c/Sub-Relativistic+. However, as I have learned recently, this seems to be a pretty heavy use of calc stacking, using nothing but multipliers and this one feat to justify Relativistic+ and FTL+ speeds of other characters much later on. This should likely be changed.

However, it does not mean nobody is FTL, as FanofRPGs made a calc putting Goku swatting Frieza's death beams at slightly over the speed of light.

So what does this mean for the everyone's speed values?

Well, first of all, any value gotten by applying multipliers to the initial calced feat should be gotten rid of due to being calc stacking.

Early Saiyan Saga Goku, Piccolo, Raditz, and anyone around that level should be Sub-Relativistic+ via the calced feat.

Anyone significantly stronger than their level in this saga should be "At least Sub-Relativistic+".

Everyone during the Namek Saga, unless a better speed feat is calced, should be placed at "At least Sub-Relativistic+" and "At least Sub-Relativistic+, likely higher".

Goku and final form Frieza should be FTL based on Fan's calc.

Anyone significantly stronger during the rest of the series, unless a better feat is calced, should be "At least FTL" and "At least FTL, likely higher" for those much, much far ahead.

Thoughts? I know this is a relatively controversial topic, but please try to remain as neutral and unbiased as possible.

 

[The_Everlasting]

These seem fine to me.

 

[Promestein]

I agree, yeah.

 

[Blahblah9755]

I thought applying explicit canon multipliers to calced speeds wasn't considered calc stacking. If it is then there are a few other characters that should probably be downgraded as well, such as Meruem from HxH.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I thought applying explicit canon multipliers to calced speeds wasn't considered calc stacking. If it is then there are a few other characters that should probably be downgraded as well, such as Meruem from HxH.

Multipliers applied to something which has been calced is indeed a type of calc stacking, as I've learned.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

After the UT thing, I'm inclined to think that this is reasonable

 

[FanofRPGs]

I should note that it is blatantly shown that Freeza blitzed KKx10 Goku, and as said in my calc. The feat I did not ammount from calc stacking, it is a self-reliant feat that does not have as much contriversy scaling with. And Goku swatting the Death Beams was still fresh in AT's mind when Freeza was curbstomping KKx10 Goku. So FTL+ still should be allowed.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I should note that it is blatantly shown that Freeza blitzed KKx10 Goku, and as said in my calc. The feat I did not ammount from calc stacking, it is a self-reliant feat that does not have as much contriversy scaling with. And Goku swatting the Death Beams was still fresh in AT's mind when Freeza was curbstomping KKx10 Goku. So FTL+ still should be allowed.

We cannot automatically assume someone is that much faster simply because of blitz. That's why "At least" and "Likely higher" exist.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Wait, In verse stated multipliers being stacked ontop of a calc'd value, as far as i'm aware of is acceptable, the Kaioken has directly stated to increase speed by that amount.

So I disagree with the downgrade

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Wait, In verse multipliers being stacked ontop of a calc'd value, as far as i'm aware of is acceptable, the Kaioken has directly stated to increase speed by that amount.
So I disagree with the downgrade

Where is this stated? Because it seems to be exactly the same type of thing. It's not like there's a specific statement in the manga in which it's stated "He's moving at seven percent the speed of light!" or something. All we know are that there are multipliers which apply to their strength and speed, and then we're applying them to the calced value. This seems to be the exact thing people always claim give wildly inflated values, especially applying it across half to an entire series.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Yeah there was similar where in the comments section of God Movements calc on Base Frieza's Death Ball speed, someone actually made a thing where they multiplied Goku's base speed (from being scaled to Frieza's attack) by using the Kaioken multiplier thing....just to say this out here...

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Anyways on the thread here, i'm kind of leaning towards the downgrade.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Supporting downgrade...whole heartedly. What are we going to do about the Dragon Ball Super travel speeds and their combat speeds? Do we still assume combat speed>travel speed?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Supporting downgrade...whole heartedly. What are we going to do about the Dragon Ball Super travel speeds and their combat speeds? Do we still assume combat speed>travel speed?

IDK. That's a topic for another time, I guess. But since those speeds are in no way based on multipliers, they should remain unchanged.

 

[LordAizenSama]

It's not calc stacking because it's not being used to exaggerate in a calc.it's fairgame. we know Goku gets 2x faster, 3x faster, it's a in verse stated multiplier, not derived from a calc. I don't see a reason to ignore the kaioken.

now if you used the value of a calc to justify the speed of something else in another calc, that would be calc stacking.

as for where it's stated, I dunno. I just know that this has been used and accepted for many calcs.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The reason is because the initial speed value is based off one calc very early series, not to mention one of the multipliers is taken from the back cover of one of the volumes of the manga. If nothing else is the series is calced or shown anywhere close to where we eventually end up by using multipliers, it begins to seem unreliable.

Also, different topic, but didn't we refuse to use SSJ multipliers for a similar reason?

 

[FanofRPGs]

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/148665/3702633-7058929431-vdrag.jpg

Here is the scan

now here is the thing

The Death Beam calc was accepted because it was a self-reliant feat and did not require calc stacking, but still ended up consistent with SDZ's original calc. As we know, calcs take precedent over statements, but statements are allowed if consistent.

We have a statement that Goku escaped the Imprisonment Light Ball the instant it exploded with super speed, and Goku swatting away light beams that were as fast as a flash of light. It is clear what was being intended through the fight.

Goku was light speed, it was backed up by both in-story statements and a calc. So Freeza was blitzing a Kaio-Ken Goku who was blatantly shown to be light speed. Kaio Ken is blatantly stated to multiply all stats several times over. Back when Goku was peaking with the KKx4. Now which is more likely, Kaio-Ken x2 is a 2x multiplier in speed or a 1.4828476203860x multiplier in speed?

 

[LordAizenSama]

We don't use the SSJ multiplier because we don't know if it's all stats x50, or if it's just power x50 and speed increased by a different amount.

 

[FanofRPGs]

We don't use the SSJ multiplier because we don't know if it's all stats x50, or if it's just power x50 and speed increased by a different amount.

yes, but I feel as though it is being suggested that KK also be dropped. Which is wrong IMO, Akira Toriyama is simple, as I have stated. Which is more likely, Kaio-Ken x2 is a 2x multiplier in speed or a 1.4828476203860x multiplier in speed?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The Death Beam calc was accepted because it was a self-reliant feat and did not require calc stacking, but still ended up consistent with SDZ's original calc. As we know, calcs take precedent over statements, but statements are allowed if consistent.

Being self reliant should take precedence over being consistent with another calc, as it does not automatically mean every part of that calc is correct. There's also the fact that SDZ's calc put final form Frieza at 24c, which is significantly greater that slightly more than 1c.

If Frieza blitzed someone with a FTL feat, then that is by all means "At least FTL", but that does not mean we can assume it's more.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

We don't use the SSJ multiplier because we don't know if it's all stats x50, or if it's just power x50 and speed increased by a different amount.

Yeah, but we don't even use it for power, either.

 

[Strmi]

Kaio-Ken increases everything,speed,power etc.It was stated back in Z and even now in super in recent episodes

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Kaio-Ken increases everything,speed,power etc.It was stated back in Z and even now in super in recent episodes

Kaio-ken increasing stats isn't what's being argued.

 

[LordAizenSama]

@Aza In that case I have no idea. but Kaioken is very clear cut and outlined in the story with basic multipliers as opposed to the vagueness of the SSJ transformation.

 

[Strmi]

Kaio-Ken increases everything,speed,power etc.It was stated back in Z and even now in super in recent episodes

Kaio-ken increasing stats isn't what's being argued.

but someone said that even kaio-ken can't be used as multiplier for speed since SSJ is also not accepted

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Aza In that case I have no idea. but Kaioken is very clear cut and outlined in the story with basic multipliers as opposed to the vagueness of the SSJ transformation.

Again, this has nothing to do with Kaio-ken being vague, which it obviously isn't. It's about the unreliability of basing all speeds around one very early feat being repeatedly stacked on top of with Kaio-ken multipliers, especially when we have an actually FTL feat we can use.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

but someone said that even kaio-ken can't be used as multiplier for speed since SSJ is also not accepted

Kaio-ken is fine being used for speed. The problem is using it on one speed calc at the beginning of the series and basing everything else on that.

 

[Strmi]

All this trouble because nobody ever asked AT to clarify their speed in all those interviews .Why they always choose to ask some stupid question when they choose amongs fan questions

@azathoth ty for clarifying about kaio-ken question

 

[LordAizenSama]

Again, this has nothing to do with Kaio-ken being vague, which it obviously isn't. It's about the unreliability of basing all speeds around one very early feat being repeatedly stacked on top of with Kaio-ken multipliers, especially when we have an actually FTL feat we can use.

That's just it though. how is it, just because it is the only feat at the time, discredit it in any way? especially when they do have that FTL feat not too far down the track? it's not inconsistent in any way and builds their speed up quite nicely. What would be inconsistent is having the Kaiokenx20 have the same speed as Kaiokenx10.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Wait, In verse stated multipliers being stacked ontop of a calc'd value, as far as i'm aware of is acceptable, the Kaioken has directly stated to increase speed by that amount.
So I disagree with the downgrade

I stand alongside Aizen.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

But since those speeds are in no way based on multipliers, they should remain unchanged.

o
Of course. The legitimacy of the stats were never in question.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That's just it though. how is it, just because it is the only feat at the time, discredit it in any way? especially when they do have that FTL feat not too far down the track? it's not inconsistent in any way and builds their speed up quite nicely. What would be inconsistent is having the Kaiokenx20 have the same speed as Kaiokenx10.

All FTL feats are not the same. 24c and ~1c should not be treated as "totally consistent" and a way to justify a method we wouldn't normally use. Especially when, keeping up the trend, we have ridiculously FTL characters despite no remotely similar showings whatsoever.

 

[Ryukama]

I'm sorry but I am not quite seeing the connections between this and the Undertale situation.

The UT calc literally took a calced value of another character and applied it to another calc that was being made.

This Kaoiken thing is using an in verse canonly established multiplier and putting it on a calc, which I honestly don't see as too much different to scaling one character as a certain speed if they are explicited stated to be faster than the character who got calced at that speed.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm sorry but I am not quite seeing the connections between this and the Undertale situation.
The UT calc literally took a calced value of another character and applied it to another calc that was being made.

This Kaoiken thing is using an in verse canonly established multiplier and putting it on a calc, which I honestly don't see as too much different to scaling one character as a certain speed if they are explicited stated to be faster than the character who got calced at that speed.

This isn't about the UT thing, though? It's about what constitutes calc stacking/innacurate values, and something I had qualms with back when we first implimented this. Again, the Kaioken itself isn't the problem. It's placing the multiplier on top of one feat and repeatedly building it up instead of going with an "at least" or "likely higher" as we do with everything else on the site.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

If we accept this then we'll have to accept every other instance in which this method is used for various franchises. We need to be consistent in our methods or our legitimacy can be cast in a questionable light.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I don't understand your points and it seems to be a Issue over what you consider calc stacking

I've given all my points on it so instead of arguing in circles I'll leave it at that, for now

 

[Ryukama]

This isn't about the UT thing, though? It's about what constitutes calc stacking/innacurate values, and something I had qualms with back when we first implimented this. Again, the Kaioken itself isn't the problem. It's placing the multiplier on top of one feat and repeatedly building it up instead of going with an "at least" or "likely higher" as we do with everything else on the site.

Alright then apologies. I seemed to get the impression you were referring to that incident when you were saying "as I learnt recently." My bad. Still users in the thread have also been comparing this to the UT thing, so that was more of a general statement than a direct thing towards you, Azzy.

I still don't see why a canonly stated multiplier can't be used if it has no major contradictions, and going by what Aizen is saying using this may lead to more contradictions.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alger listening to Aizen's thing, it gets a bit iffy for me, even though I have doubts on the speeds for other reasons.

 

[Blahblah9755]

If we accept this then we'll have to accept every other instance in which this method is used for various franchises. We need to be consistent in our methods or our legitimacy can be cast in a questionable light.

Well as I mentioned earlier we do use the method of adding multipliers to already calced speeds in several instances (post rose Meruem, and I believe Fate Servants' reactions, just to name a few)

 

[Blahblah9755]

If we accept this then we'll have to accept every other instance in which this method is used for various franchises. We need to be consistent in our methods or our legitimacy can be cast in a questionable light.

We do use this method in several other places though (post rose Meruem's speed, Lord Boros's sealed AP, and I believe Fate series servants' reactions just to name a few)