DBZ Speed Revisions

[TheMightyRegulator]

Calculation is a mathematical process. You cannot deduce that, upon applying multipliers, a sub-relativistic character becomes FTL+ without a calculation, though it's not written on paper.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

I feel this is obvious, but I guess i'll post it anyways.
This is taken directly from our calc stacking page . the first sentence no less.

"Calc stacking refers to the practice of using results from one calculation in order to calculate other feats."

I think what's being talked about here is the method. Once you get a value after multiplying with the multiplier, it becomes similar to calc stacking, when you use the multiplier again on that same value. What I have learned from reading numerous calcs so far that this is very similar to calc stacking process, who leads to inflated value. I assume this is what Azathoth's concern is about. While there is no calculation involved here, but the process of how the math is done is perhaps similar to stacking..

This is simply my observation, but a veteran calc expert like Dont Talk can explain the process clearly.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Yes, I agree with Fasial. We should wait for the input of our fellow users who are well versed in situations such as this.

 

[Alakabamm]

I disagree with the downgrade because I think using multipliers that are explictly said to change speed is fair game.

That said:

>Kaioken x20 Goku kept up with 50% Frieza, who is probably half the speed of 100% Frieza

I disagree with this one unless it is said 50% Frieza is half as fast

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

I disagree with the downgrade because I think using multipliers that are explictly said to change speed is fair game.
That said:

>Kaioken x20 Goku kept up with 50% Frieza, who is probably half the speed of 100% Frieza

I disagree with this one unless it is said 50% Frieza is half as fast

Thanks for your input Alakabamm, I too had much more issues with 50% Frieza than the multiplier itself.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I disagree with this one unless it is said 50% Frieza is half as fast

It's not, iirc.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also, can someone help me out by grabbing the statement about Kaio-ken multiplying all stats? I'm trying to find it again, but I can only seem to find the statement that it heightens all the users senses and another that says it multiplies power level.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Here, Turn on Annotations

here it is in the original series

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Thanks. I swore that one in the original series existed, so it was weird when I couldn't find it.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I just realised. if KaiokenX20 Goku is 14c, he should be listed as FTL+ on his profile.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I just realised. if KaiokenX20 Goku is 14c, he should be listed as FTL+ on his profile.

I thought he was, already?

 

[LordAizenSama]

It's missing the plus symbol

 

[Kyle_Ramos]

Dissagre with the downgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

I lean more towards agreeing with LordAizenSama and Alakabamm.

As far as I remember, Schutzendunkelziel's calculation was agreed to be valid, since unlike power levels, Kaioken was explicitly stated to be a linear power-up.

However, I do not remember where in the manga that this was stated, and also think that FanofRPGs' calculation seems like something more solid to go by.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Hmm. On second thought, i might change over to not agreeing with the downgrade based on what Alakabamm and Aizen said.

Isn't Kaioken an inverse multiplier that boosts the user's power, speed, etc.?

Edit: Also from what i've seen above via skimming through it, i do sort of see why Kaioken is a potential problem of causing calc staking.....well sort of.

 

[Kyle_Ramos]

Why is Kaiohken a problem?

It just makes us have to multiply Goku´s stats by 10...

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Well that's to the others. After much thinking and skimming through this, i really don't get why it's that much of a problem.

Like again, doesn't it actually increase the user's stats or whatever all around such as their speed and power?

 

[Majin_Acolyte]

Here, Turn on Annotations
here it is in the original series

I'd like to add that in the Viz translation goku states that Kaioken lasts for a "heart beat". Vegeta also states Goku's power increased "for an instant" after witnessing Kaioken for the first time. I find that interesting considering how many actions took place between Goku and Vegeta while it was active.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

hmm so the goku that fought frieza was barely light speed+

so that means kaikoken x 20 made him like 20x light speed rite?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

hmm so the goku that fought frieza was barely light speed+
so that means kaikoken x 20 made him like 20x light speed rite?

That sort of direct scaling should actually be fine, yes, but we should apply it to the calc of base Goku being ~1c and not repeatedly multiply from the 0.07c feat near the beginning of the series. That should make FTL+ for Frieza and everyone afterwards fine. Not sure how I feel with the Rel+ ratings being based on the back of the manga cover, though. That one's still iffy to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have no problem with scaling from the ~1c feat instead when applicable, if it is not necessary to use the original calculation, and the results are similar. It does seem more tangible.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, I have no problem with scaling from the ~1c feat instead when applicable, if it is not necessary. It does seem more tangible.

Thank you, Ant. My major concern was that without using something like that and simply scaling from the 0.07c feat, we essentially had nothing substantial with which to validate the FTL ratings in DBZ.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

what if we get statements in super about their speeds in the time section we call dbz


will that be counted?

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth And the ratings would basically be mostly identical to now, correct?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

what if we get statements in super about their speeds in the time section we call dbz

will that be counted?

I assume?

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

what if we get statements in super about their speeds in the time section we call dbz

will that be counted?

I assume?

what if it shifts the current ratings up or down by a considerable margin?

 

[Antvasima]

@TLT1 I suppose so.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

And the ratings would basically be mostly identical to now, correct?

Pretty much. We'd just have to insert the ~1c calc in the reasoning for base Frieza Saga Goku (post-zenkai).

 

[Antvasima]

Well, then I have no problem with this.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

what if it shifts the current ratings up or down by a considerable margin?

I suppose it would be fine as long as it wasn't either contradicted or absolutely outrageous.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

what if it shifts the current ratings up or down by a considerable margin?

I suppose it would be fine as long as it wasn't either contradicted or absolutely outrageous.

like if it makes frieza mftl or in an opposite effect, makes him mhs+ ?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

like if it makes frieza mftl or in an opposite effect, makes him mhs+ ?

Pretty much, yeah.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, given that we have proof that he was FTL+ now, I think that downgrades would be unlikely. Upgrades, maybe, but it depends on what was revealed. Anyway, this is hypothetical and unlikely, so we'll deal with it if it happens.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, then I have no problem with this.

Great. The one thing I do still think it would be a good idea to change would be the assumption that base Namek Saga Goku is Rel+ via the back of a volume cover and not something stated in the actual manga. However, it is fair to assume he'd be noticeably superior to his Saiyan Saga Kaio-ken x4, so Rel should be fine, IMO. Especially since Frieza's Death Beam is SoL (which is what we based the calc on) and nobody could properly react to it (which would be weird if they were all at least 70% SoL).

 

[Antvasima]

What do you mean with that it is based on the back of a volume cover?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

What do you mean with that it is based on the back of a volume cover?

It's based on this.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I agree that this might just be some hyperbole from the editors. We do not know if it is even translated from the Japanese edition.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Alright, so should I make the appropriate changes (rel+ to rel for the few it applies to, linking the FTL calc for base Goku on relevant character pages)?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so, yes. Unless anybody has objections?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I will wait a bit for any objections, and if there are none, I will make the changes.