DBZ speed downgrade (severe)

[The_real_cal_howard]

Me and Matt were talking about this for a second, and I decided to make it now. This affects most of the verse, up into the Buu Saga, where there's a non-debunkable feat in Buu's galactic travel.

Sub-Rel
Matt and I believe that this would be an outlier, only made worse by the weirdness of using attack speed to scale to normal speed, and even if it was okay, the way we treat it would be like making all lightning timers MHS+. And it would be an outlier because of the fact that big plot points consist of people much faster than BoZ Piccolo and Raditz taking hours to cross planetary distances. It takes Goku wayy too long to cross Snake Way, resulting in the death of his friends. Krillin, Vegeta, Gohan, and Dende take a long time to cross Namek. It's treated as a big deal when Goku does his own Sub-Rel feat. Now I know what people are thinking. Combat Speed and Travel Speed are different when it comes to Dragon Ball, and the latter is faster. This "common knowledge" is false. Almost all of DB's best feats are travel speed. Goku crossing Namek, Buu flying across stellar distances, everyone and their mother crossing universes in DBS, even Broly moving across a galaxy. So unless we want low MFTL+ Whis... And there is one combat feat in DB. But that is false for a different reason.

FTL(+)
Next is Frieza's Death Beams and Goku dodging them. They're assumed to be lightspeed for not that good of a reason. It's because a back cover called them a "flash of light" (I don't need to begin why there's a problem with that) and that people could sense FTL spacepods from the Ginyu Force but not Death Beams. For starters, sensing, not just in DB, but in fiction in general, should never be used like that. You can see a jet flying in the sky at supersonic+ speeds at far enough distances, but can't see it if it's close to you. This is that multiplied by thousands. Not only were the ships much much much farther than said analogy, but they were using something canonically much better than eyesight to track them. Not to mention that it wasn't accepted by the calc group, and DT, our no. 1 calcer wasn't for it.

Conclusion
All in all, DBZ's speeds need adjusting. Unfortunately, Saiyan Saga has no better feats than the Snake Way feat, so it would have to be scaled off of that. And Namek, Frieza, and Cell Sagas have to be scaled off of Goku crossing Namek.

 

[Promestein]

I don't really have any problems with this.

I don't remember what the speed values for the Snake Way / Namek crossing were.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Overall I agree with this, as I was the person who initially proposed this revision.

Saiyan Saga would likely be scaled of some other feats, if I am not mistaken they exist, if not we'd have to use Goku's feats during the 23rd Budokai which are Hypersonic+

For Freeza Saga, there's also the speed of Freeza's Death Ball which is also Sub-Relativistic+

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/freezas-base-death-ball-speed.33608/

Mach 33,000 to be exact.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FanofRPGs/Goku's_Freeza_Saga_Speed_Feats

There are also these calcs which are hard to quantify. Some of the methods seem shaky to me, perhaps Recalcs would help.

 

[Promestein]

Yes, those feats should be recalced.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I believe DT was calling them unquantifiable (Frieza's Imprisonment Ball and Cell's Kamehameha), but I could go for a recalc of the Namek feat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Frieza' Imprisonment Ball is using the Toei Anime, which is a no-no. I also question explosions seem from space in Dragon Ball, just look at Vegeta's Final Flash. It appears to be a Continent-Sized explosion, but when actually shown the effect on earth doesn't even destroy an island.

Same with Goku's Spirit Bomb against Freeza. It appears to be Continent-sized from space, but it is only hundreds of meters wide when the actual effect is shown.

And once again with Nappa blowing up the city, the effect shown from space is Country-sized, but the actual destruction is City-wide.

So no, I am against considering Freeza's explosion to be visible from space, when it clearly isn't going by the manga.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I agree with Matt.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that The Living Tribunal1 should get a chance to reply before we decide anything.

If we perform the downgrade, what speeds would the characters be assigned instead?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We are still debating that. I would want the Namek Crossing feat to be recalced. I dunno if Cell's Kamehameha and Vegeta's Final Flash in manga-form would account for much.

We know Base Freeza can fire attacks at 11283318.145 m/s.

Base Freeza has a Power Level of 530,000, while 100% Freeza is 120,000,000. I know we can't power levels to properly scale since it's wonky, but it's a start.

Alternatively, we know each transformation was a massive boost in all physical stats, so we could treat 2nd Form as x2, 3rd Form as x2, and casual Final Form as x2.

Goku could measure up to casual Freeza, and use his Kaioken x20 to fight him, which was matched by 50% Freeza. So another x2 for 100%.

That would be 3,610,661,808 m/s for 100% Freeza, which is 12.04387139052c

If we ignore all the unconfirmed x2 multipliers, safe for the final one since we know Freeza was at 50% when he matched Kaiokenx20, Freeza at 100% would still have a speed of 451,332,726 m/s, or 1.50548392382c. Barely FTL. Which is a lowball since it doesn't account for the (admittedly unquantifiable) increases in speed which each form.

So I think from 100% Freeza and Super Saiyan 1 Goku we would have FTL characters.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I can agree with FTL EoF Saga.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the explanation. Perhaps you should inform the calc group members about this thread?

 

[LordAizenSama]

While I dont agree with the saiyan saga speed being a outlier I do agree with it being downgraded as it seems a bit odd, using Raditz dodging gokus kamehameha and scaling it to piccolos moon bust speed.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

>Hours to cross large distances

Well, in db in general, fighting speed > travel speed

The thing is, very few of them are quantifiable and we have only one where we have the time.

As for the snake way thing, the million km is a figure of speech, also in an old drawing of the universe's map , the snake way is shown to be something like one-fourth of the universe (which also makes crossing it an outlier).

The big problem with dbz speeds is that there are very few quantifiable feats and pretty much the only one thing we definitively have for sure is stronger characters constantly blitzing weaker ones.

So, if no one accepts the current levels, the the best thing to do would be to make them all unknown in terms of speed. Since, scaling the speed from 23rd budokai doesnt make sense because after the end of part 1 db, the characters did enourmously grow in power (that too by a factor of several millions), and in db in general, if someone grows in power, they also grow in speed as well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Aizen

The feat is an outlier for the reasons stated. It is contradicted by the Snake Way feat. It is contradicted by Gohan, Krillin, the stronger Vegeta and even Ginyu Force people not crossing Namek instantly. It is contradicted by Goku crossing Namek being a big deal in terms of speed, meant to instantly showcase how great his increase in power was due to his Zenkai Boost.

@TLT1

I disagree. All of Dragon Ball's best speed feats are Travel Feats.

Secondly, it is not a figure of speech. It is the legitimate size. It being a quarter of the universe contradicts both the stated sized and narrative, and only appears in a map drawn years after its size was stated. So it is more likely that Toriyama forgot the size.

I also disagree with Unknown. That's the coward's way out. If the best speed feat is Relativistic to FTL, then you don't make the 20 or so faster characters Unknown. You make them "At least FTL, likely higher".

Also, we go by feats, not by assumed linear power growth. We can't do that for Dragon Ball simply out of preference.

 

[Lina_Shields]

TLT1 makes sense.

and in db in general, if someone grows in power, they also grow in speed as well.

especially regarding this statement.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah, it's true, but we don't do linear growths like that for any Verse, even those where an increase in power = an increase in speed.

So we can't do that for Dragon Ball either. If we did we'd have Massively FTL+ people very early due to the sheer difference between say, City level and Planet level

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What Matt said. Naruto and One Piece would be well into FTL territory if we used linear growths like that.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that "At least ... likely higher" may be the less bad option then.

However, I agree that combat speed tends to be higher than flight speed in Dragon Ball, at least in earlier storyarcs.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

I am not talking about linear growth. What I am saying is that with growth in power, there is also a growth in speed in dragon ball. And the growth between end of db and beginning of dbz is not minor, it is several million times, to think that speed would have grown only trivially would be very inaccurate. This huge power increase would bring an unquantifiable speed increase, hence if we take away the speed of the moon feat, then we do not have any way to know BOZ feats.

Also, how are the travel feats the best ones? When all db and early dbz travel feats are in the hypersonic to hypersonic+ range while the only quantifiable non outlier speed feat is at least sub relativistic+ (possibly even higher if you take other time estimates)?

Also, we dont know how much faster frieza gets with each transformation, so the 2 x assumption is pulled straight out of thin air.

Oh also, in the sub rel frieza calc, frieza threw the ki blast super casually that too with the intention of simply destroying the planet instead of fighting a serious battle; not only that but his large ki ball is clearly shown to be a much more sluggish move than his regular attacks. As a result, the speed of his ki blasts and physical moves in a serious battle where he needs to outspeed a strong and fast foe would definitely be higher (by an unknown amount). So, we don't really know what even base frieza's max speed is from the video of him casually tossing a ki blast at planet vegeta without having any intention to use his full speed.


All, in all, if we do not accept the current moon feat, then the only reasonable route to go would be to go for unknown speeds due to the lack of objectively quantifiable speed feats, unless if someone can somehow ask toriyama about the speeds of dbz characters.

Also

"I also disagree with Unknown. That's the coward's way out."

Vs compilation isnt about courage or cowardice, its about accuracy of stats, thats why so many people visit this wiki- in order to get accurate stats,.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree as well, but I am unsure we can really use the moon feat.

Well, even if it is agreed we can, the current justification for FTL Freeza is awful.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that TLT1 seems to make sense.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@TLT1

That's all fine and dandy, but if there are no speed feats, then there aren't and the only thing we can do about it is put a "At least Hypersonic+, likely far higher" thing to it.

The best DB Speed Feats are travel feats. Goku crossing Namek. Buu travelling across the galaxy. Every speed feat in DBS.

I agree we don't know how faster he gets, which is why I just used it as an example.

I agree that the feat is super casual, never questioned it. Yet another thing which gives credence to FTL End of Freeza Saga.

I once again disagree with Unknown. Yes, we are about Accuracy which is exactly why we can't give them Unknown speeds. We go by the best feats, always, regardless of how higher you personally think they are. We do this for every series. Regardless of how many millions of times more powerful a character is, if they don't have speed feats of their own, we will use the best feat available, and ad an "At least X level, likely far higher" to the explanation.

By your very reasoning, Saitama should be Unknown on all stats, Zeno would be Unknown on everything, Saint Seiya Zeus would be Unknown on everything too, and numerous other characters too, simply because they are unfathomably more powerful than other characters, and we don't have 100% feats of their own.

 

[Antvasima]

Matthew also makes sense.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, I used the word "Coward" as a figure of speech. I would much rather rate the characters by their own best available speed feats, regardless of how much faster personal bias would make us believe they are, then to give them Unknown to avoid complaints and personal dissatisfaction.

This is also why we don't rate Grand Priest at Low 2-C, even if it is unquestionable that he's likely intended to be far above Merged Zamasu, because he has no Low 2-C feats or statements yet.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Since we are discussing speeds in general, I want to bring up something: Majin Buu.

Currently Buu Saga characters are ranked as MFTL due to a calculation I made, with the feat of Buu flying across the galaxy and destroying hundreds of planets within years.

However... Did he really?

This is a genuine question of mine, because the manga is way too vague about it.

The manga implies that instead of flying to each planet himself, it was Bibidi who flew Buu to each place with his spaceship.

"Boo's ferocity was too much for even his creator, Bibbidi. When he needed a respite, he placed the Djinn under a magic seal."

"Bibbidi brought the sealed Boo to their next target... Earth."

So Bibbidi would put Buu under a magic seal and travel him to his targets, and then unleash Buu and seal him again.

This is also what Babidi would have done. He too had a spaceship , and was distraught when it was destroyed .

However, later down the line it is said that should Goku and Vegeta be destroyed, Buu would threaten and eventually destroy the whole universe . However, at this point he already had learned Instantaneous Moment, so it's a moot argument.

Of course, the anime displays Buu as capable of interstellar travel, but the manga is just so vague about it due to a complete lack of flashbacks, that I just don't know.

What do you people think?

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

Seems alright to me.

 

[LordAizenSama]

@Matt a interesting point.. I think I agree.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Firstly- the point about accuracy, unknown does not make any claims, it means that the wiki cannot gaurentee that stat in question, hence the point about accuracy is irrelvant for the unknown stats.

Secondly, as for better speed feats, in any given saga where we have measurable amounts of time and the distance for both traveling and fighting speeds, the combat speeds are objectively seen to be faster than the traveling speed values.

Overall- Well I disagree with scaling dbz from end of part 1 and using the super casual feat with an already sluggish move because neither of these cases give a good estimation for the speed stat.

But, knowing that most people will not agree with keeping speed unknown, then it seems that this will be changed anyway. So if you want to change the speeds based on these 2 feats, then there should be a note saying that the exact speeds are not known for certain stat and the actual speeds can be considerably higher.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@TLT1 Just mention that the feats were casual.

 

[RoyGundam]

Is this thread staff only ? Because I wanted to ask a question

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, ask away.

 

[RoyGundam]

Why is it a big deal that Z warriors and Vegeta could sense the approach of Ginyu force ? Presumably they were travelling in interstellar space - which means that Vegeta etc. could be measuring their approach via something like Parallax.

 

[RoyGundam]

The only significant thing seems to be the concept that changes in Ki/Power level propagate through DBZ space at MFTL speeds. It doesn't say anything about the speed of the characters

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Again, just like because you can see and track a jet plane passing through the sky at Supersonic speeds, doesn't mean you are Supersonic yourself.

 

[RoyGundam]

Exactly, that is my point.

 

[Ryop]

What about the travel speed feat that Gotenks at full speed SSJ1 travel several time around earth in few mins and Piccolo in 29 mins? that gonna downgrade DBZ too?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, there's better feats than that in the Freeza Saga.

 

[Ryop]

what feats?

 

[Antoniofer]

So after this revision, wouldn't be any other calculation to justified their speed? I remember that Aizen wanted to calculate a supposed FTL+ speed feat back in Cell Games, but I can't think in what scene.

Also, would be the Gotenks feats makes Buu's feat kinda strange, considering that he is considerable stronger and faster, Buu could be faster in space tho.