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DBZ Speed CRT

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Also, it's outlierish, really, outlierish.
That sudden speed boost that pops up in his base form, without explanation, is just pure outlier
 
Arcker123 said:
The calc looks reasonable and is a good support feat, let’s evaluate the calc divine linked.
Click to expand...
Hell no. That is too big of a outlier. It has evidence sure and used a good calc but I don't think that's good enough. (With how much I love DB I was it was though)
 
Yes... you calculate the distance divided by the time, and that’s the speed. You don’t divide the answer you don’t yet have by one of the variables to get the other variable.
 
Axxtentacle said:
Yes... you calculate the distance divided by the time, and that’s the speed. You don’t divide the answer you don’t yet have by one of the variables to get the other variable.
Click to expand...
Oh no I was saying that cuz you quote the second one and I was correct in that one. I thought you were saying I was right the first time.
 
Yeah, if you wanna get that Frieza feat evaluated its best saved for another thread. We should wrap this one up first.

Basically the things I want AKM to address are

1. What is either significantly inconsistent or otherwise contradictory that would indicate we should dismiss a otherwise consistent statement from the official synopsis that Goku's speed increased 10 fold from Saiyan saga to Namek saga? If nothing exists there is no reason to ignore it.

2. Do you want to make the argument that Recoome, Jeice and Burter are slower than Goku kkx4, or are you in agreement they should scale above that?

3. Why are you using Namek Goku with Kaioken x2 to scale base Frieza fight Goku, when we know for a fact he can use Kaioken x4, and he states he could use Kaioken x10, which is never contradicted, and seen during the Frieza fight. If we are going by the logic that he is stronger than his previous peak including kaioken, he should scale above Kaioken x10, not a x2, which never actually fights btw.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
Yeah, if you wanna get that Frieza feat evaluated its best saved for another thread. We should wrap this one up first.

Basically the things I want AKM to address are

1. What is either significantly inconsistent or otherwise contradictory that would indicate we should dismiss a otherwise consistent statement from the official synopsis that Goku's speed increased 10 fold from Saiyan saga to Namek saga? If nothing exists there is no reason to ignore it.

2. Do you want to make the argument that Recoome, Jeice and Burter are slower than Goku kkx4, or are you in agreement they should scale above that?

3. Why are you using Namek Goku with Kaioken x2 to scale base Frieza fight Goku, when we know for a fact he can use Kaioken x4, and he states he could use Kaioken x10, which is never contradicted, and seen during the Frieza fight. If we are going by the logic that he is stronger than his previous peak including kaioken, he should scale above Kaioken x10, not a x2, which never actually fights btw.
Click to expand...
This? Spitting straight factual.
 
Son Goku got 10x stronger and faster after his Zenkai and 100G training!

Son Goku (Saiyan Saga) PL was over 8??? at full power. (Without KK of course...)

Post-Saiyan Saga Zenkai and 100G Training Son Goku (Namek Saga) PL 90,000

Which is a 10x increased to Speed! It makes sense to how Goku blitz....

Goku did not use KKx10 before the Frieza fight but he stated that he could do it so it should be use to scale to Second Form Frieza.

Frieza (Second Form) PL over 1,000,000

Post-Saiyan Saga Zenkai and 100G Training Son Goku PL 90,000 x KK10 = 900,000

------------------------------------------------------------

Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) and Cui should scale to Son Goku (Saiyan Saga) KKx2

Vegeta (Post-Dodoria and Zarbon fight) should scale to KKx3

Dodoria and Zarbon (Normal and transformed) should scale to Son Goku (Saiyan Saga) KKx3

Reccome, Burter, and Jeice should scale to Son Goku (Saiyan Saga) KKx4 | with At Least rating

Captain Ginyu should scale to Post-Saiyan Saga Zenkai and 100G Training Son Goku without KK | with At Least rating

Frieza (First form) should scale to Post-Saiyan Saga Zenkai and 100G Training Son Goku with KKx2 | with At Least, Likely higher rating

Frieza (Second Form) should scale to Post-Saiyan Saga Zenkai and 100G Training Son Goku with KKx10 | with Likely At Least rating
 
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ProudLearner said:
Son Goku got 10x stronger and faster after his Zenkai and 100G training!

Son Goku (Saiyan Saga) PL was over 8??? at full power. (Without KK of course...)

Post-Saiyan Saga Zenkai and 100G Training Son Goku (Namek Saga) PL 90,000

Which is a 10x increased to Speed! It makes sense to how Goku blitz....

Goku did use KKx10 before the Frieza fight but he stated that he could do it so it should be use to scale to Second Form Frieza.

Frieza (Second Form) PL over 1,000,000

Post-Saiyan Saga Zenkai and 100G Training Son Goku with KKx10 PL 900,000

------------------------------------------------------------

Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) and Cui should scale to Son Goku (Saiyan Saga) KKx2

Vegeta (Post-Dodoria fight) should scale to KKx3

Dodoria and Zarbon (Normal and transformed) should scale to Son Goku (Saiyan Saga) KKx3

Reccome, Burter, and Jeice should scale to Son Goku (Saiyan Saga) KKx4 | with At Least rating

Captain Ginyu should scale to Post-Saiyan Saga Zenkai and 100G Training Son Goku without KK | with At Least rating

Frieza (First form) should scale to Post-Saiyan Saga Zenkai and 100G Training Son Goku with KKx2 | with At Least, Likely higher rating

Frieza (Second Form) should scale to Post-Saiyan Saga Zenkai and 100G Training Son Goku with KKx10 | with Likely At Least rating
Click to expand...
This is so much work and I love it and I'm sad to say I will crush your heart with these four words. Power Level aren't linear.
 
I agree, I think it should go

BoZ Base Goku = 0.745c

Base Goku (Saiyan Saga) = at least 0.745c

Kaioken x2 = at least 1.49c

Kaioken x3 = at least 2.235c

Kaioken x4 = at least 2.98c

Base Goku (Namek Saga) = at least 2.98c (Due to being above Saiyan Saga Kaioken x4 Goku)

Kaioken x2 (against Ginyu) = at least 5.96c (stated power level of 180,000)

Kaioken x3 = at least 8.94c

Kaioken x4 = at least 11.92c (Would have a power level of 360,000)

As AKM has stated, 1st Form Frieza’s official power level is 530,000, which would still be a good deal above Namek Saga Goku even with Kaioken x4

First form Frieza = at least 11.92c (scales to those who scale to un-suppressed first form Frieza and his later forms)

Base Goku (Post Zenkai, against Frieza) = at least 11.92c

Kaioken x20 = 50% Frieza = at least 238.4c

100% Frieza = at least 476.8c

SSJ Goku = at least 596c

Even if you ignore Namek Saga Goku being able to use Kaioken x10, you should include up to x4 at least since he had actually used it previously
 
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ProudLearner said:
Ok, dude.. you literally posted a Naruto forums link that was complete wank.

Also, stop spamming reply to every users reply. Just answered them in one post.

I digress.
Click to expand...
And then I used Earth cuz I couldn't access the page anyways so...... so you said this for what?

Also, If I notice something else after I will try to not let it go unnoticed

Also Also, The Naruto Forums link at least wasn't confirmed wrong.

I digress.
 
DBZMLP12345 said:
I agree, I think it should go

BoZ Base Goku = 0.745c

Base Goku (Saiyan Saga) = at least 0.745c

Kaioken x2 = at least 1.49c

Kaioken x3 = at least 2.235c

Kaioken x4 = at least 2.98c

Base Goku (Namek Saga) = at least 2.98c (Due to being above Saiyan Saga Kaioken x4 Goku)

Kaioken x2 Goku (against Ginyu) = at least 5.96c (stated power level of 180,000)

Kaioken x3 Goku (Namek Saga) = at least 8.94c

Kaioken x4 Goku (Namek Saga) = at least 11.92c (Would have a power level of 360,000)

As AKM has stated, 1st Form Frieza’s official power level is 530,000, which would still be a good deal above Namek Saga Goku even with Kaioken x4

First form Frieza = at least 11.92c (scales to those who scale to un-suppressed first form Freeza and his later forms)

Base Goku (Post Zenkai, against Frieza) = at least 11.92c

Kaioken x20 Goku = 50% Frieza = at least 238.4c

100% Frieza = at least 476.8c

SSJ Goku = at least 596c

Even if you ignore Namek Saga Goku being able to use Kaioken x10, you should include up to x4 at least since he had actually used it previously
Click to expand...
Agreed. Although a 10x increase from Saiyan saga to Namek saga, and 10x increase during his Zenkai on Namek is directly indicated as I outlined above, and I would recommend them for sure, if the staff for whatever reason choose to ignore the synopsis statement about a 10x increase in speed, and pretend Goku can't use beyond 4x kaioken until he fights Freiza, then they should minimum be using kaioken x4 as the multipliers as shown here.
 
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Even if Goku could possibly handle KKx10 then as a low balled we could use KKx9 because as we seen when he use KKx3 on the Saiyan Saga it was his limit at that time (and KKx4 was passed his limit at that time).


We have Likely and Possibly ratings for a reasons, right?
 
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Why are you ignoring the stated 10x multiplier from the synopsis
Click to expand...
I already provided the reasons in my earlier comments. Goku's increased power level simply means he is stronger than his kaioken x4 self from the Saiyan saga, by an unquantifiable margin. The statement is not from a canon source and is based on nothing from the original manga (we don't consider power levels to be linear so they aren't any form of evidence). And it's likely a misinterpretation of Goku's statement about his body being able to handle kaioken x10, not that his body became 10 times stronger and faster.

Didn't address Recoome, Jeice and Burter scaling above KKx4 Goku, which should be an obvious adjustment as outlined above
Click to expand...
I mean, they all obviously scale above kkx4 Goku from the Saiyan saga. I just forgot to include them in my post. But they don't change anything.

We know Goku could use kaioken x10 as stated on his way to Namek. No reason to believe he was wrong especially when he does this later without much effort vs Freiza. In fact even if you want to ignore that statement, which there is no reason to since it is never contradicted, he can minimum use x4 still, so x2 is not accurate for his top power in Namek saga. He should still logically scale above his kkx10 Namek state based on his and Vegetas statements about his new base form power as I outlined above.
Click to expand...
I provided my reasons for this in my earlier comment too. That's based on something that is pure conjecture. I don't doubt Goku being stronger than a hypothetical kaiokenx10, but there simply isn't enough hard evidence for that scaling. Goku's statement only suggests that he thinks that his body can possibly handle kaioken x10. Maybe he is right, maybe he is wrong and said that because he was hyped about him getting so strong, maybe he is stronger than that against Freeza, we don't have incontrovertible evidence.

There also isn't any hard evidence for kkx4 either. All we know is that his PL at kkx2 was 180k and Freeza's first form is 530k. That makes Freeza's first form > kkx2 Goku.
If you're trying to say his PL should be 360k which will be lower than Freeza's, then I don't agree with applying that kind of logic. Because it is basically inflation using power levels. We can come up with a hypothetical power levels by choosing hypothetical kaioken multipliers, for example kkx5 Goku would be 440k, etc. and use them to get any results we want. This is exactly the use of power levels that is prohibited.
 
@AKM sama
The synopsis is an official source and is never contradicted in the manga, it is in fact consistent. It is just as usable as Daizenshuu or v-Jump which are used as justification on vsbw at times. Ignoring it in favor of your opinion, that you think it might be a misinterpretation, has no actual basis in fact and is double standards based on what sources are acceptable on the wiki.

Glad you agree on the Ginyu force scaling, it should be updated in that case.

Your using double standards again on PL. You literally say Frieza should scale to KKx2 Goku because his power level is higher as your reasoning, despite the fact KKx2 Goku never even fights in the manga either for scaling that way. Then you turn around and say we can't use KKx4 to scale, even though it results in a lower power level still than Frieza, which we know for a fact Goku has and could use. As long as it's based on a known kaioken multiplier that Goku has, there is no reasonable reasoning to discard it. Furthermore he outright says he believes he can use Kaiokenx10, and he does vs Frieza with ease. Its clear that the author intent is to indicate he can, and we have no reason to doubt him in his claim. Its like Cell saying he can Solar system bust, there is no reason to believe its hyperbole or that he is wrong. So it should really be a x10 multiplier, but at minimum even with downplay a x4 if we assume he can't go beyond that despite his claim.
 
Oh yeah, forgot to include Kaioken x4 Goku in my blog and that Ginyu Force is obviously above that.
 
So here is how this might turn out if Ryu's points are accepted

Goku/Piccolo (Beginning of Z) = 0.745c

Raditz/Saibaman = >0.745c

Piccolo/Tien/Yamcha/Krillin/Chaiotzu/Gohan/Yajirobe (Saiyan Saga) = >0.745c

Nappa = >>0.745c

Goku (Saiyan Saga) = >>0.745c
Kaioken x2: = >>1.49c
Kaioken x3 = >>2.235c
Kaioken x4 = >>2.98c

Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) = >>>1.49c

Zarbon/Dodoria/Cui = >>>1.49c

Recoome/Burter/Jeice = >>>2.98c

Goku (Namek Saga) = 7.45c (The creators felt the need to outright state Goku got 10x stronger and faster in the synopsis on the Manga itself as Ryu said, not to mention all the other proof he's pointed out)
Kaioken x2 = 14.9c
Kaioken x3 = 22.35c
Kaioken x4 = 29.8c

Ginyu = >7.45c

1st Form Frieza/Vegeta (Zenkai, rested up) = >14.9c
2nd Form Frieza = >>14.9c

Piccolo (Fused with Nail) = >>>14.9c

3rd Form Frieza = >>>>14.9c

Vegeta (Zenkai, healed by Dende) = >>>>>14.9c

Goku (Zenkai, healed from Pod) = >29.8c (He and Vegeta state he's shattered his previous limitations and that he's a lot stronger then before, even if you don't count the Kaioken x10 statement from Goku, he's used x4 before, so at the very least that should imply Goku (Frieza Saga)>Kaioken x4 Goku (Namek Saga)

4th Form Frieza (Casual) = >29.8c (Which makes sense given how he was blitzing and toying around with Vegeta like he's a helpless Child)

Kaioken x10 = >298c
Kaioken x20 = >596c

50% Frieza = >596c
100% Frieza = >1,192c

SSJ Goku = >1,490c

I even didn't make 1st Form Frieza faster then Kaioken x4 Goku (Namek Saga) and only made Goku (Frieza Saga) scale above a Kaioken x4 Goku (Namek Saga) due to Vegeta's statement about Goku's shattering his previous limitations (Vegeta has seen Goku use Kaioken x4 on Earth) and of course Goku stating he's gotten a lot stronger then before and given how he's used Kaioken x4 before, its safe to say he knows how strong he'd be while using Kaioken x4 when he finished the Gravity Training
 
I still feel like the 90,000 PL being a 10x jump is hypothetical, but 3000000 PL Goku being stronger than a 4x Kaioken 90000 PL has some merit that I can see.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I still feel like the 90,000 PL being a 10x jump is hypothetical, but 3000000 PL Goku being stronger than a 4x Kaioken 90000 PL has some merit that I can see.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I feel like it requires far less assumptions or leaps, or rather it requires none at all because we know for a fact that 3000000 PL Goku should be superior.
 
Yeah, pretty much what @DBZMLP12345 said. Even if we ignore Goku's claim he can use KKx10 on Namek, and say he is still capped at x4, those would be the conservative numbers.

Although he outright says he can use kkx10 while going to Namek, uses it easily vs Frieza, and even a higher level one, and there is no contradiction to him having kkx10 either, so I would still use x10 instead of x4 for base Frieza saga Goku's boost as it is what is indicated by Goku himself. Like I said, ignoring his statement about kkx10 is like ignoring Cells statement that he can SS bust, unnecessary and contradictory to the narrative of the manga.

The list using kkx10 looks like the following
(this is the most accurate imo since tbh there is no reason to dismiss Goku's statement that he can use kkx10)

Goku/Piccolo (Beginning of Z) = 0.745c

Raditz/Saibaman >0.745c

Piccolo/Tien/Yamcha/Krillin/Chaiotzu/Gohan/Yajirobe (Saiyan Saga) > 0.745c

Nappa > 0.745c

Goku (Saiyan Saga) > 0.745c
Kaioken x2: > 1.49c
Kaioken x3 > 2.235c
Kaioken x4 > 2.98c

Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) > 1.49c

Zarbon/Dodoria/Cui > 1.49c

Recoome/Burter/Jeice > 2.98c

Goku (Namek Saga) > 7.45c
Kaioken x2 > 14.9c
Kaioken x3 > 22.35c
Kaioken x4 > 29.8c
Kaioken x10 > 74.5c

Ginyu > 7.45c

1st Form Frieza/Vegeta (Zenkai, rested up) > 29.8c
2nd Form Frieza > 74.5c

Piccolo (Fused with Nail) > 74.5c

3rd Form Frieza > 74.5c

Vegeta (Zenkai, healed by Dende) > 74.5c

Goku (Zenkai, healed from Pod) > 74.5c

4th Form Frieza (Casual) > 74.5c

Kaioken x10 > 745c
Kaioken x20 > 1,490c

50% Frieza > 1,490c
100% Frieza > 2,980c

SSJ Goku > 3,725c
 
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I don't like these numbers, but there are some lore feats to support this. Buu, for example, destroyed hundreds of planets in just a few years, despite not having any teleportation abilities at that point. He'd at least have to race around these areas of space while also taking his time (probably days, depending on Fat Buu or Kid Buu) to devastate planets, rather than outright destroy them.
 
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