• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

DBX/DBH timelines

Status
Not open for further replies.
Honestly 2-A still is viable for countable infinity according to tier page. So any level of infinity is adequate.

A lot of this has been people arguing how multiverses are formed, but in reality that is not the main point, the main point is it is directly stated History, or in other words existent timelines created by past written events, is not finite.

Them saying it is countless splits is not proof of it being finite since it does not directly contradict the existing History that makes up the multiverse being non finite, as infinite is still countless.

Even when talking about the splits that make up the multiverse, it talks past tense saying "It's formed from..." as opposed to "it forms from...", which would indicate this non finite structure is again already existing, not just possible in the future, just as history would by definition be.

The only real argument that was made is "it's flowery language" which has no proof to back it up, it's just ignoring a directly stated fact on how the existing history is not finite. Unless there is direct proof or heavy contradictions that it's not to be taken literally it should be. And to this day nothing actually directly contradicts it.

There really is no other way to interpret it as far as I see other than it having infinite existing timelines like stated if we use in game quotes, which is to my knowledge primary default using the actual game canon, or deciding to ignore the clear statement in favor of head canon for how you think the DB multiverse is set up in a finite way like some proposed many worlds theories which is never stated directly, it only shares some similarities like making splits, but is clearly stated to have non finite existing timelines as history.

I know myself, Ryukama, InfiniteBlack123, AKM sama, Zenkaibattery1, Read this post and Akreious 100% agree with the upgrade here, as well as many others who ive talked to not present.

And TISSG7Redgrave is also perfectly fine with it if it did happen as he sees the merit to it.

And Azathoth also said it is possible good proof for the upgrade to. But he wanted to take a second look at it. Although I have not heard back from him yet on the topic, I will shoot him a reminder and would appreciate it if somebody was able to get ahold of him to comment on it.

So there is significant support from all levels of the wiki, and realistically from a factual perspective it comes down to are you going to ignore the statement in place of head canon for the size and type of multiverse in DBX, or not. I personally will go by what is stated, and that is non finite History, or existing timelines, as I outlined above.
 
"Causs countless/boundless and infinite are practically the same to the Japanese people."

This is false.

Anyway, this thread has gone one far too long and no one is even replying anymore. Just the same people. If the upgrade was really a load of bull, than there should be a greater resistance force.

That being said, their are more people in favor of the upgrade than not. So I suggest "Likely 2-A" if not just outright 2-A so we can move on. This is honestly getting annoying after so many days.
 
Sera EX said:
Anyway, this thread has gone one far too long and no one is even replying anymore. Just the same people. If the upgrade was really a load of bull, than there should be a greater resistance force.
Click to expand...
Nah that's just people who disagree being exhausted and tired of replying
 
@Kaltias

I doubt it when some of them haven't even replied in days.
 
I can grant you that it's the case because it's far from the first time I see that happening.

I'm doing that myself, to start. I already addressed about 90% of the arguments here in that DBH upgrade blog a while ago, and I don't have the mental energies to go through that ordeal again
 
Understandable. But that input could determine whether or not it passes or not. But regardless we need a conclusion now. Is everyone in favor of Likely 2-A or 2-A? Either works for me.
 
I don't think many people are in favor of "2-A" with 15 members in the thread already said it's not enough for 2-A while 6 members are with the upgrades and 5 are neutral including Sera (sorry if I counted something wrong). The argument dissolves into whether or not there's a direct statement that says DBX has Infinite Worlds/Universes/Dimensions/Timelines or not to which the answer is no.

Maybe a Possibly 2-A would suffice but even then I'm not sure. I'd honestly wait for the upgrades or revisions considering DBX and DBH are still ongoing and in the future there'll likely be a clear cut 2-A statement.
 
Fine.

1) History isn't linear -> Cool, branching multiverse

2) And it's certainly not finite -> We want to play semantics here? Finite = has a set limit. If something is perpetually increasing, it is not finite

3) It's formed from a vast network of countless events -> Supporting evidence for the 2-B multiverse of #1

4) Endless worlds -> And I heard a ton of people saying that the ocean Is endless, but Earth isn't High 3-A. "Endless" can perfectly be used as "finite but immense"

5) The DLC is called "Infinite History" -> Names aren't proof

6) Futures are created over the smallest of things -> Confirms statement #1

2-A is a no
 
InfiniteBlack123 said:
One good way to verify if something is directly stated to infinite in the context for a Japanese is if the Kanji or the word

þäíÚÖÉ

µ×£ÒüªÒüùÒüîþäíÒüä

µ×£ÒüªÒüùþäíÒüä

Or any other Japanese terminology for infinite is used or not.

Causs countless/boundless and infinite are practically the same to the Japanese people.

Please!
Click to expand...
Has this been adressed?

No they are not the same. The first kanji (þäíÚÖÉ) is infinity.

The other kanjis are all for boundless/eternal

They don't mean the same thing at all. As long as the kanji is not Mugen (þäíÚÖÉ), you'll never get eien or any other japanese word to mean infinity in the literal sense
 
@Causality

Don't think it's enough proof of 2-A. History in this case, means how events can end up taking different approaches/possibilities, if changed. It means if "x" didn't happen, "y" will happen which didn't happen originally in the current timeline. It's not literally that the world is composed of already existing infinite possibilities, but the change of history can bring one of these infinite possibilities into existence
 
@ALRF.

I addressed that they aren't the same but thank you for clarifying the exacts.

@Kaltias

Sorry for bothering you. ;_;
 
@Sewa

You aren't bothering me. The topic just get on my nerves so I tend to sound more aggressive.
 
Kaltias said:
2) And it's certainly not finite -> We want to play semantics here? Finite = has a set limit. If something is perpetually increasing, it is not finite
Click to expand...
I'll have to disagree with this. If something is perpetually increasing, it is still finite albeit ever-increasing.

Google the word infinite and you'll get this:

Captured


Ever-increasing =/= Infinite

Not finite = Infinite

They are synonyms. What you are trying to say implies that only one of these two synonyms holds true here, when both words have same meanings. If that's the case then we'll have to downgrade every verse which has "infinite" universes because they just have an ever-increasing number of universes according to your logic.
 
If those verses have an expanding multiverse with infinite universes, the multiverse was infinite to begin with, which is not the case in Dragon Ball Xenoverse/Heroes.
 
AKM sama said:
I'll have to disagree with this. If something is perpetually increasing, it is still finite albeit ever-increasing.
Click to expand...
Nope, it lacks a definite border

And no, it doesn't affect verses with actual statements of infinite universes, because the world "Infinite" refers to actual infinity, while transfinite fills the definition of "not finite" without being actual infinity

Screenshot 2018-10-27-18-16-32
 
I already said this will be the case of "transfinite", but as pointed out by Ryu above, according to our tiering system, it still classifies as 2-A.

EDIT: Your mobile is 100% charged. That's a very rare sight I barely get to see. I envy you OvO
 
Kaltias said:
Fine.

1) History isn't linear -> Cool, branching Multiverse

2) And it's certainly not finite -> We want to play semantics here? Finite = has a set limit. If something is perpetually increasing, it is not finite

3) It's formed from a vast network of countless events -> Supporting evidence for the 2-B multiverse of #1

4) Endless worlds -> And I heard a ton of people saying that the ocean Is endless, but Earth isn't High 3-A. "Endless" can perfectly be used as "finite but immense"

5) The DLC is called "Infinite History" -> Names aren't proof

6) Futures are created over the smallest of things -> Confirms statement #1

2-A is a no
Click to expand...

1: Wrong branching timelines containing multiverses and the branches already exists. Thanks to Whis's explanation on how every action produces an equal counter action. Which always exists parallely.


2: It isn't just perpetually increasing it already exists. Especially according to the Timebreakers statement.


Each timeline can have multiple Universes, one timeline can have 18 Universes while another timeline can have 12 and then 5. Each variations of since there are infinite number of possible timelines there are multiple countably infinite number of Universes.


3: And most importantly the difference between the classification for 2B is that it is finite while 2A is countably infinite, continues to infinity or to tends to infinity is a subset of infinity.


2-B: Multiverse level Characters who can create and/or destroy 1001 to any higher finite number of universal 4-dimensional space-time continuums.

2-A: Multiverse level+ This category is separated in the following manner:

Multiverse level+: Characters who can destroy and/or create a countably infinite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums. Take note that the universes are technically lined up along a 5-dimensional axis, but that their geometrical size still amounts to 0 within this scale. High Multiverse level+: Characters who are 5-dimensional, and/or can destroy and/or create 5-dimensional space-time constructs of a not insignificant size. Characters who can destroy and/or create an uncountably infinite numbers of universes may potentially also be assigned this tier, as their geometrical 5-D size can be higher than 0.


The bolded means that the current Xenoverse that is definitely not finite exceeds the 2B mark. They are not high 2A just low mid end 2A.


Each timeline can have multiple uncountable variations of infinite possible Universe.

4: The translation for Endless and Infinite are interchangeable in Japanese.

þäíÚÖÉ infinite µ×£ÒüªÒüùÒüîþäíÒüä endless, boundless, fathomless, eternal, measureless, infinite µ×£ÒüªÒüùþäíÒüä endless, boundless, everlasting, fathomless, eternal, infinite


And in Dragon Ball Super mugen has been used to describe power already, most prevalent was when Goku commented on Kefla's power being mugen. Yet people translate that as endless or limitless.


Language schematics is a very poor argument. Especially since Sekai is used to describe the the Earth, The Universe and the whole World of Zeno, which is a timeline.


Not Finite and countable is far more closer to infinite than endlessly, immense. And in the case of the timepatrollers statement it was outright claimed to be infinite.

5:

It is also the title of the DLC and a core part of the worlds mechanics. Why Fuu is completely unfased by any outcome and why you can have so many different unique interraction with your mentor.

Again history is the product of past events. Infinite History meants and infinite number of events thus infinite number of timelimes.


6: Future already exists, in many variations simultaneously in the Xenoverse which is why so many patrollers can interract but have their own story.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Transfinite doesn't classify as 2-A. 2-A is an infinite number of universes. Transfinite < infinite. It's just really high into 2-B.
Click to expand...
2-A is countably infinite, whose size is given by a transfinite number.

And transfinite isn't smaller than infinity. It's a level of infinity, albeit a lower level than absolute infinity.
 
Countable infinite = 1,2,3 and so on forever.

Uncountable infinite = all the real numbers, rational and irrational between 0 and 1.

Transfinite = Doesn't have a finite end, but it's not infinite.

DBH's multiverse is finite but always expands whenever someone time travels to create a new timeline, that would lead to a transfinite number.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Countable infinite = 1,2,3 and so on forever.

Uncountable infinite = all the real numbers, rational and irrational between 0 and 1.

Transfinite = Doesn't have a finite end, but it's not infinite.

DBH's multiverse is finite but always expands whenever someone time travels to create a new timeline, that would lead to a transfinite number.
Click to expand...

Timeline aren't always created from time travel.


Just from the existence of a possible action, Beerus erasing Zamasu, created a Timeline where Beerus didn't erase Zamasu and became Goku Black.


Timetravel allows timelines to intersect, and interract but they already exist before the effect of timetravel. Choices and chances create timelines.


Also all three countable, uncountable and Trans Infinite numbers are all above the 2B threshold.

2-B: Multiverse level Characters who can create and/or destroy 1001 to any higher finite number of universal 4-dimensional space-time continuums.


Not Finite >Infinitely Continuous> Uncountable >Higher Finite number


And within the 2A margin as all three are a subset of infinite.


The defining point of 2B is that the number of multiverses is countable and finite. Non finite, infinite, countless and endless all qualify above and beyond 2B, to a subset of 2A countable infinite numbers(transfinite).


There should be no argument for an Upgrade over 2B.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Countable infinite = 1,2,3 and so on forever.
Uncountable infinite = all the real numbers, rational and irrational between 0 and 1.

Transfinite = Doesn't have a finite end, but it's not infinite.
Click to expand...
Except Transfinite numbers are numbers that are "infinite" in the sense that they are larger than all finite numbers, yet not necessarily absolutely infinite.

Again, transfinite is a level of infinity, smaller than absolute infinity. And the size of the set of natural numbers, known as a countable infinity, is given by a transfinite number.

So yes, according to the tier page, it qualifies for 2-A.
 
A question to help me understand Transfinite :

If someone is explicitly stated to be transfinite levels of infinity beyond someone on levels unimaginable to a baseline Low 2-C.... What tier would they be ?

And yes I disagree that the above examples for DBH/DBX. They aren't 2-A, just extremely high-end 2-B. Like, I could say Xeno Goku could actually do well now against Cresselia and other God-Tiers.
 
Since the difference between Low 2-C and 2-C is unquantifiable, that person would still be Low 2-C. You need feats to be 2-C, not just be stronger than Low 2-Cs.
 
Interesting. A mod told me that is a Tier 1 statement... Oh well.

Anyways, I personally feel like this thread should be closed unless someone gives much more convincing evidence for 2-A.
 
The 2nd Existential Seed said:
Interesting. A mod told me that is a Tier 1 statement... Oh well.

Anyways, I personally feel like this thread should be closed unless someone gives much more convincing evidence for 2-A.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by A mod told you it is for Tier 1.


ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Since the difference between Low 2-C and 2-C is unquantifiable, that person would still be Low 2-C. You need feats to be 2-C, not just be stronger than Low 2-Cs.
Click to expand...

We are not talking about low 2C. The difference between 2B finite numbers and 2A is the concept of finite numbers going towards infinity. 2B is finite and 2 A is infinite.

Fuu's statement https://m.imgur.com/a/sDItIO6

Implies non finite numbers meaning it already exceeded the criteria for 2B.


The timepatroller's statement https://m.imgur.com/a/3UUOU

Confirms it is truely infinite.
 
@InfiniteBlack123 I was talking to The 2nd Existential Seed when I brought up Low 2-C.

Cool, still doesn't make it 2-A. A multiverse that started off as finite but keeps expanding will never reach infinity. There has to have been infinite universes from the start.
 
Not finite is still defined as infinite. It is minimum of countable infinity even if it is not always absolute infinity, which is still within the required bounds of the tier.

Transfinite is countable inifnte btw, same thing.

Code: 
The first transfinite number is called aleph-sub-zero (or aleph- naught, or aleph_0). (Aleph is the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet.) It is the cardinal number of the set of positive integers. Sets having this cardinal number are called countably infinite sets, or countable sets, because they can be put into one-to-one correspondence with the positive integers, or counting numbers.
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/51472.html

Also this is talking about the past tense of currently existing timelines and history, not non existant only possible futures. So the argument of it refering to only possibilities is moot here.

There is overwhelming support for the upgrade tbh, and ive yet to see solid proof that contradicts Fu's statement directly.

I think the upgrade is perfectly reasonable.
 
Zenkaibattery1 said:
Most of the "debunks" aren't even debunks furthermore
So far I've seen

"History doesn't mean the past" ~ Every single source on the internet refers to it as the past. Find me one English professor or anyone with basic knowledge who says it doesn't mean the past. I'm in history class right now, what, are we supposed to be learning about the future or the present? lmao.

"Non-finite doesn't mean infinite". Something is either infinite or finite. There is no middle ground.

" There is no way history can be infinite"

Time patroller said history has no end, Fu said history has no end, the DLC guide said there's an infinite history

"History doesn't refer to other timelines/the multiverse"

Trunks said history splits into different scrolls, and he refers to the scrolls as timelines in the first misson in xenoverse. In DLC 6, one of parallel quests says "multiversal melee. warriors from all throughout history!" and we get people from different timelines fighting

Seriously. There hasn't been a single debunk that doesn't throw logic and common sense out the window.
Click to expand...
This and when was Fu talking about possibilities. He's referring to the past otherwise known as history, not possible timelines. The past history; timelines, are not finite. It's literally that simple. Most of the "debunks" aren't even talking about what Fu is saying lmao
 
No, the multiverse is not finite, nor does it expand to infinite, it already is infinite. If a possibility exists then they have always exist. This is why Goku black happened even though in Trunk's timeline Zamasu never met Goku. Goku Black's world always existed even before the events that made Goku Black occued


The Xenoverse has never been stated to be expanding. But its has been stated that it has infinite paths. Xenoverse 2 does not cause Xenoverse 1 to not exist and vice versa.

https://m.imgur.com/a/3UUOU


2B is finite


2A is not finite. Which is a subset of infinity.


2A is within the confines of not finite and infinite.


Every Universe that claims to be infinite is not infinite even though it claims to be infinite according to your logic.

Look at this equation y=1├ÀX, or y=2├ÀX, y=3├Àx...y=n/x these equations products different graphical results, provided x is not 0. If x was 0 the the result would reach infinity. Each of those equations at x=0 represent a tier of countable infinity. But mathematically they will never reach zero, thats why in functions people say domains/range tends to infinity.


Cause many 2A or 1 tier characters don't even say they can effect an absolute infinite number of objects. Many cases use the words such as endless and limitless and eternal or just infinite.


Its just the same cyclic argument you are not proving the time patroller statement nor Fuu statement incorrect nor does the tier page agree with you.


The criteria for 2B is:

Multiverse level Characters who can create and/or destroy 1001 to any higher finite number of universal 4-dimensional space-time continuums.


2 A criteria is any set of infinite number meaning even the lowest Universal function tending to infinity(y=0.001/x when x=0)can classify for 2A.


A world with an Infinite number of Timelines containing a Variable number of Universes is well within 2 A classification.


There alway was infinite variation of timelines for everything that exists in dragon ball. Just because some never interracts doesn't mean they don't exist, that is why parallel quests and time rift missions exists.


Xeno Characters are not finite and above 2B as per tier list page. There are statements that explain the structure of the world to be infinite.

So there is no reason for DBgame characters to be 2B when they meet the criteria for 2A unless it is because it is dragon ball and they have to be scrutinized under the strictest of downplay.
 
This and when was Fu talking about possibilities. He's referring to the past otherwise known as history, not possible timelines. The past history; timelines, are not finite. It's literally that simple. Most of the "debunks" aren't even talking about what Fu is saying lmao


Exactly I don't know why this is so hard to understand, history is the past and infinite history is infinite possible past timelines. That already occurred, and possibilities that exist and also have alternative results the exists too.


There hasn't been a single proper debunk other than a cyclic argument over word schematics.
 
Well with that Hakkyo scan I think it is evident that the DBH verse is in fact infinite. While I find the idea of history branching infinity to be asinine, it seems like the verse absolutely implies definite infinity. Maybe some weird verse cosmology element allows that but hey, I think it's undeniable.

I'm fine with 2-A DBH.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Dagoth_OwO
  • Locked
Time Power additions
2
Replies
61
Views
5K
Vietthai96
Vietthai96
Robo432343
tb upgrade
Replies
3
Views
536
Huesito88
Huesito88
TheGodOfICE777
  • Locked
DB Games: Ziku
2 3
Replies
88
Views
9K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless
  • Locked
The Time Ships: Verse & Cosmology Page Addition
Replies
14
Views
940
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless
MightyFrogBeyond
How to Keep infinite branching timelines as Low 2-C??
Replies
2
Views
445
MightyFrogBeyond
MightyFrogBeyond
Back
Top