DBS Zamasu downgrade

[Hellscream]

Okay, so no idea how this got accepted but this is what the OP said in this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dbs-zamasu-regen-upgrade.150145/
:Manga Zamasu has mid godly regen because Hakai wouldn’t work on him anime has that Hakai wouldn’t work on Zamasu but the same statement exists in the anime as well
My proposal is Mid Godly Regen for Zamasu"

The OP is using the statement of beerus not being able to Hakai zamasu as an argument.
For one, beerus is not able to use hakai on the scale of an entire timeline (which is what's needed to destroy zamasu), it's not even shown or stated that he can hakaii / erase an entire universe like zeno.
second, even if he survived hakai in itself, there are multiple beings in DBS who have EE of themselves and that just resisted it, goku resisted it, Frieza resisted it, Vegeta resisted Toppo's hakai etc.
And then there's the fact that Zamasu actually got erased on the spot by Zen'O who erased the entire timeline, which in turn killed zamasu as well.
Not to mention the fact that for Mid-godly you need proof of erasure of the mind, soul and body which is not the case here.
At best it would be Low-Godly.

Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.

 

[Thelastmlg]

pretty sure that is about fused zamasu, who is immortal, and not infinite zamasu, so the range part doesn't matter

idk about the rest though, just wanted to clarify it

 

[Huesito88]

"second, even if he survived hakai in itself, there are multiple beings in DBS who have EE of themselves and that just resisted it, goku resisted it, Frieza resisted it, Vegeta resisted Toppo's hakai etc."

Why is this a point? It was agreed (in a very long thread) that Goku, Frieza, and Vegeta can all survive it due to a combination of interacted experienced Ki control and power (Which is why Broly and Beast Gohan don't have it)

 

[StekFence]

Also, Hakai can destroy souls, so if he were to come back from that, he’d have mid godly

 

[Hellscream]

Also, Hakai can destroy souls, so if he were to come back from that, he’d have mid godly

Maybe read the regeneration page first, regen from a soul is low godly.

 

[Ss3micah]

Pretty sure we had a discussion like this already previously and it was determined that:

1. Mind and Soul in DB are bounded together.
2. Hakai erases soul which consequently erases mind and the body is obviously erased as well.
3. Low Godly is Regen from an EXISTING Soul. In Hakai case, the Soul is ERASED/NONEXISTENT and Zamasu Regen from that
4. Zamasu Regen from obvious erasure of Body and Soul and Mind as Well since Mind is bounded to the Soul
5. Hence Mid Godly Regen

https://vsbattles.com/threads/god-zamasu-mid-godly-regeneration-removal.137596/page-3

There is no need to have this discussion a second time when the arguments are the exact same as the first time around

 

[Hellscream]

Okay, so where does zamasu in DBS come back from being EE'd?

 

[Ss3micah]

Okay, so where does zamasu in DBS come back from being EE'd?

If your asking this
Then you obvious neglected to read through the CTR as to why Zamasu was given Mid Godly in the first place

Did you completely made this the CTR without once reading through the CTR that gave Zamasu Mid Godly especially since that recently?

 

[Hellscream]

I read through the thread that got this upgraded 2 days ago or something.
I don't remember fusion zamasu himself ever being EE'd or coming back from EE itself.

 

[Ss3micah]

I read through the thread that got this upgraded 2 days ago or something.
I don't remember fusion zamasu himself ever being EE'd or coming back from EE itself.

Great
So you know 2 things now
1. Why it was accepted
2. Why Low Godly doesn’t cover Regen from Erasure that includes Body, Soul and Mind bounded to the soul

With that said
I think we are done here

 

[Hellscream]

With that said, he never got EE'd, nor did he ever come back from it
So no, he shouldn't have mid godly even if it's accepted that the soul and mind are intertwined.

 

[Ss3micah]

With that said, he never got EE'd, nor did he ever come back from it
So no, he shouldn't have mid godly even if it's accepted that the soul and mind are intertwined.

If you have a problem with the Mid Godly
Please bring up the points that were used to upgrade the Mid Godly in the first place and then explain why all those points are invalid

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I will request that this be closed, Op did not understand what was addressed in the other CRT, please stop creating CRT without at least knowing why he won this.

 

[Hellscream]

Buddy, i watched the anime.
Zamasu never got EE'd in his fusion form.
He has no qualifications to get mid-godly.

Provide proof of his fusion form being EE'd from the anime and him regenerating from it, or drop it.

 

[Nierre]

read the crt you are supposedly debunking and debunk the points that were accepted in the original crt.

 

[Ss3micah]

Buddy, i watched the anime.
Zamasu never got EE'd in his fusion form.
He has no qualifications to get mid-godly.

Provide proof of his fusion form being EE'd from the anime and him regenerating from it, or drop it.

First off:
Both the CTR I posted AND the Mid Godly Upgrade CTR addressed BOTH the points your putting forward. Both the Low Godly Arguments and the “Zamasu wasn’t EE’d” Arguments and on both CTRs these arguments were addressed and laid to rest

Secondly:
Either you debunk the points that were used to upgrade Mid Godly Regen or close the thread as you seem to have no understanding as to why the Mid Godly was accepted

 

[Hellscream]

The mid godly rating itself would come from zamasu regenerating from hakai, (which he has never done in the anime fyi)

Please do show me where this in any way or form shows zamasu regenerating from EE.
They literally don't even know whether hakai would work on zamasu or not.
"he can't hakai him can he?"
It's not explicitly said that zamasu can't get EE'd.
And they even say that even if beerus can EE him, the whole thing will just repeat itself

So where is the proof exactly?

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Buddy, i watched the anime.
Zamasu never got EE'd in his fusion form.
He has no qualifications to get mid-godly.

Provide proof of his fusion form being EE'd from the anime and him regenerating from it, or drop it.

He doesn't need to show it because the context given which was provided in the thread used to upgrade him. So long as statments exist, it can get by without showing it.

Future Zamasu was granted immortality by Super Shenron, said immortality allows his body to regenerate from damage, it is implied that Beerus can't kill Zamasu despite the former having Hakai which erases the body and soul and Beerus nor Whis denied the claim that he couldn't kill Zamasu and Whis opted on using a better sealing technique than the Mafuba. Basic common sense would imply Zamasu's immortality (which is regeneration based) would need to be Mid-Godly In order to regenerate from Beerus's Hakai otherswise Beerus/Whis would have corrected them.

Infinite Zamasu isn't an argument because they were refering to Future Zamasu at the time, and Zeno erasing Infinite Zamasu just means his is better than Beerus's, so again that's not an argument. Also the burden of proof falls on you to prove Super Shenron gave Future Zamasu resistance to EE despite the wish was for immortality

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

He doesn't need to show it because the context given which was provided in the thread used to upgrade him. So long as statments exist, it can get by without showing it.

Future Zamasu was granted immortality by Super Shenron, said immortality allows his body to regenerate from damage, it is implied that Beerus can't kill Zamasu despite the former having Hakai which erases the body and soul and Beerus nor Whis denied the claim that he couldn't kill Zamasu and Whis opted on using a better sealing technique than the Mafuba. Basic common sense would imply Zamasu's immortality (which is regeneration based) would need to be Mid-Godly In order to regenerate from Beerus's Hakai otherswise Beerus/Whis would have corrected them.

Infinite Zamasu isn't an argument because they were refering to Future Zamasu at the time, and Zeno erasing Infinite Zamasu just means his is better than Beerus's, so again that's not an argument. Also the burden of proof falls on you to prove Super Shenron gave Future Zamasu resistance to EE despite the wish was for immortality

Well, I think now that everything is explained and why he won, I think this needs to be closed, Op didn't know the reason, and the reason for that has already been explained, could you close it, bro? Please

 

[Ss3micah]

The mid godly rating itself would come from zamasu regenerating from hakai, (which he has never done in the anime fyi)

Please do show me where this in any way or form shows zamasu regenerating from EE.
They literally don't even know whether hakai would work on zamasu or not.
"he can't hakai him can he?"
It's not explicitly said that zamasu can't get EE'd.
And they even say that even if beerus can EE him, the whole thing will just repeat itself

So where is the proof exactly?

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

LOLOL Griffon beat me to the punch lol
But yes he’s correct
Feats are not the only thing that matters when assessing situation but in verse context and mechanics as well

If you want to be that guy that ignores in verse context, statements and mechanics in place of feats then go right ahead
If you accept in verse context, statements and mechanics then Their is nothing left here to discuss

 

[Hellscream]

Show me where it's stated that beerus explicitly can't kill him, and how are beerus / whis even supposed to know whether he can actually kill him or not?
The fact that beerus was even killed by zamasu itself says enough about their knowledge thus making your point moot.
That's not an argument that supports the statement at all.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Show me where it's stated that beerus explicitly can't kill him, and how are beerus / whis even supposed to know whether he can actually kill him or not?
The fact that beerus was even killed by zamasu itself says enough about their knowledge thus making your point moot.
That's not an argument that supports the statement at all.

He doesn't need to show it because the context given which was provided in the thread used to upgrade him. So long as statments exist, it can get by without showing it.

Future Zamasu was granted immortality by Super Shenron, said immortality allows his body to regenerate from damage, it is implied that Beerus can't kill Zamasu despite the former having Hakai which erases the body and soul and Beerus nor Whis denied the claim that he couldn't kill Zamasu and Whis opted on using a better sealing technique than the Mafuba. Basic common sense would imply Zamasu's immortality (which is regeneration based) would need to be Mid-Godly In order to regenerate from Beerus's Hakai otherswise Beerus/Whis would have corrected them.

Infinite Zamasu isn't an argument because they were refering to Future Zamasu at the time, and Zeno erasing Infinite Zamasu just means his is better than Beerus's, so again that's not an argument. Also the burden of proof falls on you to prove Super Shenron gave Future Zamasu resistance to EE despite the wish was for immortality

.

 

[Deagonx]

Show me where it's stated that beerus explicitly can't kill him, and how are beerus / whis even supposed to know whether he can actually kill him or not?
That's not an argument that supports the statement at all.

You're not engaging with the evidence critically/reasonably. Read what LordGriffin said. You can't just pile on unwarranted skepticism without engaging with the information and context and expect that to matter more than the evidence alongside a well-reasoned argument.

 

[StekFence]

The fact that beerus was even killed by zamasu itself says enough about their knowledge thus making your point moot.

Are you talking about future beerus? Cos he was killed by future dabura indirectly

 

[Ss3micah]

The fact that beerus was even killed by zamasu itself says enough about their knowledge thus making your point moot.

First off, Beerus was never killed by Zamasu

Secondly Beerus in trunks timeline as far as we know was either killed during the Buu saga when Shin was killed by Babidi and Dabura or was killed during Blacks genocide of the Supreme Kai’s. But no way are you arguing that Zamasu/Black went up to Beerus and straight up killed him.

Finally, how would being killed by Zamasu explain the limits of their knowledge in anyway?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

First off, Beerus was never killed by Zamasu

Secondly Beerus in trunks timeline as far as we know was either killed during the Buu saga when Shin was killed by Babidi and Dabura or was killed during Blacks genocide of the Supreme Kai’s. But no way are you arguing that Zamasu/Black went up to Beerus and straight up killed him.

Finally, how would being killed by Zamasu explain the limits of their knowledge in anyway?

Seems like he doesn't even know about DB and is using stuff that never happened lol

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Pretty sure we had a discussion like this already previously and it was determined that:

1. Mind and Soul in DB are bounded together.
2. Hakai erases soul which consequently erases mind and the body is obviously erased as well.
3. Low Godly is Regen from an EXISTING Soul. In Hakai case, the Soul is ERASED/NONEXISTENT and Zamasu Regen from that
4. Zamasu Regen from obvious erasure of Body and Soul and Mind as Well since Mind is bounded to the Soul
5. Hence Mid Godly Regen

https://vsbattles.com/threads/god-zamasu-mid-godly-regeneration-removal.137596/page-3

There is no need to have this discussion a second time when the arguments are the exact same as the first time around

Micah, i think we should give ki users soul manipulation because ki literally comes from the soul and manipulating it is like manipulating the soul itself

 

[Hellscream]

There is no well reasoned argument, and i know the context i watched the anime.
It was never said that beerus can't actually kill zamasu.
stop trying to rub your headcanon on me.

The entire reason for zamasu getting mid godly is going off a statement that says "beerus can't hakai zamasu since he's immortal can't he?"
How does this support any of your claims at all?
Does it say "beerus can't hakai zamasu, due to his immortality"?
No, it doesn't
Neither whis nor beerus elaborate on this further and even explain that even if beerus can kill him (which is not confirmed) it wouldn't take out the root of the problem itself, and would simply cause it to happen again.




Where's the supporting evidence btw?
Whis literally says that he's going to the other timeline in order to ask beerus to destroy zamasu, which backs up my argument even further that they don't actually know whether beerus can destroy him or not.
With goku making the claim "can he even hakai someone that's immortal"
how is that supporting evidence at all???

And no worries guys, i know what im talking about

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Show me where it's stated that beerus explicitly can't kill him, and how are beerus / whis even supposed to know whether he can actually kill him or not?
The fact that beerus was even killed by zamasu itself says enough about their knowledge thus making your point moot.
That's not an argument that supports the statement at all.

Read through the thread you yourself posted in the OP, scans were provided, it's only 2 pages.

Show me where it's stated that beerus explicitly can't kill him, and how are beerus / whis even supposed to know whether he can actually kill him or not?
The fact that beerus was even killed by zamasu itself says enough about their knowledge thus making your point moot.
That's not an argument that supports the statement at all.

I'm sorry, what...? Future Zamasu and Black killed Future Beerus by killing the Kai's... but what does that half to do with this?

I'm sorry but I'm going to close this, as the It's arguments aren't solid and didn't seem to read the orginal thread. If you want to make another, I suggest reading the previous thread which I'll link below, and base your arguments around that, not some scaling about other characters resisting Hakai so Future Zamasu should or some nonsense about Beerus being killed by Zamasu having anything to do with your argument.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dbs-zamasu-regen-upgrade.150145/

 

[Huesito88]

You should post Japanese sub not English dub =/

 

[Hellscream]

Read through the thread you yourself posted in the OP, scans were provided, it's only 2 pages.

I'm sorry, what...? Future Zamasu and Black killed Future Beerus by killing the Kai's... but what does that half to do with this?

I'm sorry but I'm going to close this, as the It's arguments aren't solid and didn't seem to read the orginal thread. If you want to make another, I suggest reading the previous thread which I'll link below, and base your arguments around that, not some scaling about other characters resisting Hakai so Future Zamasu should or some nonsense about Beerus being killed by Zamasu having anything to do with your argument.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dbs-zamasu-regen-upgrade.150145/

Read my second argument, you can choose whether to close this or not after that.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

There is no well reasoned argument, and i know the context i watched the anime.
It was never said that beerus can't actually kill zamasu.
stop trying to rub your headcanon on me.

The entire reason for zamasu getting mid godly is going off a statement that says "beerus can't hakai zamasu since he's immortal can't he?"
How does this support any of your claims at all?
Does it say "beerus can't hakai zamasu, due to his immortality"?
No, it doesn't
Neither whis nor beerus elaborate on this further and even explain that even if beerus can kill him (which is not confirmed) it wouldn't take out the root of the problem itself, and would simply cause it to happen again.




Where's the supporting evidence btw?
Whis literally says that he's going to the other timeline in order to ask beerus to destroy zamasu, which backs up my argument even further that they don't actually know whether beerus can destroy him or not.
With goku making the claim "can he even hakai someone that's immortal"
how is that supporting evidence at all???

And no worries guys, i know what im talking about

I'll wait for others to address this, I'm busy. I'll leave this open until this gets felt with instead of closing it.

 

[Deagonx]

Neither whis nor beerus elaborate on this further and even explain that even if beerus can kill him (which is not confirmed) it wouldn't take out the root of the problem itself, and would simply cause it to happen again.

Because they're not sure at what point he made himself invincible. Did you listen to the video you posted?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Read my second argument, you can choose whether to close this or not after that.

I'll leave it open for now.

 

[StekFence]

The entire reason for zamasu getting mid godly is going off a statement that says "beerus can't hakai zamasu since he's immortal can't he?"
How does this support any of your claims at all?
Does it say "beerus can't hakai zamasu, due to his immortality"?

The word since means that the feat is credited to the immortality, same as using Due. It’s the equivalent of saying, “because of”

 

[Hellscream]

Because they're not sure at what point he made himself invincible. Did you listen to the video you posted?

Dude.
The video is filled with 32095409040 uncertainties.
Shit like that can't be used as evidence at all.

 

[Deagonx]

Dude.
The video is filled with 32095409040 uncertainties.
Shit like that can't be used as evidence at all.

The fact that Zamasu's invincibility is presented as the primary obstacle to the plan of sending Beerus to hakai him indicates that his hakai will not work after he makes that wish. The fact that neither Whis or Beerus objected to this is sufficient evidence of their tacit approval of that notion. You think Beerus would just remain silent while Goku incorrectly theorizes that his abilities are insufficient to accomplish the task at hand?

Again, this objection just isn't reasonable. Your skepticism isn't warranted, you're just trying way too hard to deny the clear and obvious implication.

 

[Hellscream]

The fact that Zamasu's invincibility is presented as the primary obstacle to the plan of sending Beerus to hakai him indicates that his hakai will not work after he makes that wish. The fact that neither Whis or Beerus objected to this is sufficient evidence of their tacit approval of that notion. You think Beerus would just remain silent while Goku incorrectly theorizes that his abilities are insufficient to accomplish the task at hand?

Again, this objection just isn't reasonable. Your skepticism isn't warranted, you're just trying way too hard to deny the clear and obvious implication.

Show me where it's quoted that beerus can't hakai zamasu.
Whis himself came up with the point of having beerus destroy zamasu obviously implying they don't know shit and don't even know whether it'll work or not
which is where goku came in and said "beerus can't hakai zamasu because he's immortal can't he?" which is the foundation of your claims of zamasu being able to regenerate after being EE'd.
They even support this by saying "even if beerus can destroy zamasu" which obviously inclines some sort of doubt
So all in all your evidence and rating for mid godly comes from a flimsy statement of "beerus can't hakai him because he's immortal right?"
Beerus is also shown throughout the entire anime to be reluctant to help / interfere with matters such as these in the first place.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Griffin's first post summarizes this pretty well.

Your insistence of "oH bUt WhErE's ThE eViDeNcE" is useless when the evidence is right there, you're just choosing not to connect it to the prior context, and frankly, you're just making your arguments worse than they already are, tbh

Zamasu's immortal. His immortality is evidently and visually regeneration. It's said Beerus can't destroy immortals. Zamasu is an immortal. Beerus can't destroy Zamasu. Badabing, badaboom, put the context together.

It's really not that hard.

 

[Hellscream]

Nowhere is it stated that beerus can't destroy immortals
badabing badaboom, useless argument.