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DBS/Z/GT macrocosm structure
- Thread starter SSJRyu1
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- dragon ball multiverse zen'ō
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Heaven is never shown to be the size of the universe in the manga. What you're seeing in the macrocosm is the entire Afterlife, as in Heaven and Hell combined.
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I mean, it's more accurate to say that they destroyed two "Universal Structures", with different space-times than it is to say 2 Universes. But, again, I am not entirely familiar with how to tell the difference between the two, especially given Goku's statement above, where time is noted to act differently in the Otherworld. It's almost literally at least two universes in one though. If Matt could clarify how having separate space times within a greater macrocasum is handled with that-- along with how it seems as though it's still busting more than 1 "universe" despite not doing the whole timeline and past present and future Erasure thing.
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This isn't even official. Heaven is not that large.
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Heaven and Hell was also gonna be destroyed by Goku vs Beerus' attacks so... I don't see the difference? If Heaven + Hell = Mortal Universe in size, and Goku vs Beerus was gonna destroy all 3 of those anyways then I don't see the difference in the speculative feat we're talking about here.Kepekley23 said:
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Matt. I don't agree with your opinion in this case, and the manga does not either. It is stated the time itself is different in other world from living world.
Also the fact two time spaces move forward at the same pace does not make them the same time space, look at trunks timeline and the present one. Both move forward at the same pace simultaneously and are undeniably separate time spaces, same with the other macrocosms.
Also it is stated the Living world, which contains what we consider the Universe like ours, is "separate" from other world, not a layer or part of it.
So no, it is explicitly said to be separate, and have a different time flow, and your argument on them both moving forward in time simultaneously does not prove they are the same time space as I outlined above.
Also the fact two time spaces move forward at the same pace does not make them the same time space, look at trunks timeline and the present one. Both move forward at the same pace simultaneously and are undeniably separate time spaces, same with the other macrocosms.
Also it is stated the Living world, which contains what we consider the Universe like ours, is "separate" from other world, not a layer or part of it.
So no, it is explicitly said to be separate, and have a different time flow, and your argument on them both moving forward in time simultaneously does not prove they are the same time space as I outlined above.
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It's not an opinion, Ryu, it's a fact. 7 years passes equally in the Afterlife and the Mortal World. It's not different at all. By definition it cannot be.
It is the same timespace. Or else time travelling in the Mortal World wouldn't affect the Afterlife, let alone the entire multiverse. that is also facual.
It is separate in that you can't just fly there on your own. But it's still part of the larger universe.
It being separate doesn't make it another universe, and it demonstrably doesn't have a different time flow. I'm sorry, but that's objectively false. If they were different timelines, altering one wouldn't alter another.
The timeline in DB is a 2-C timespace made of 12 (Formerly 18) universes.
It is the same timespace. Or else time travelling in the Mortal World wouldn't affect the Afterlife, let alone the entire multiverse. that is also facual.
It is separate in that you can't just fly there on your own. But it's still part of the larger universe.
It being separate doesn't make it another universe, and it demonstrably doesn't have a different time flow. I'm sorry, but that's objectively false. If they were different timelines, altering one wouldn't alter another.
The timeline in DB is a 2-C timespace made of 12 (Formerly 18) universes.
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I do support an upgrade.
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This might be something, but i'm not sure, i usually don't understand cosmology stuff.
"A general term for the world that combines the entire universe and the Demon Realm. In Dragon Ball's world-view, there is the airtight universe, and there is the Demon Realm that takes the appearance of the reverse side of that. In contrast to 'The World Beyond' where everyone that dies resides, it is basically the world where those with lives reside. The lifeforms who live in the Living World are souls from the World Beyond that have reincarnated. Also called the present world."
"[Par.] Due to the fact that if one dies, they can be revived into the present world via Shenlong's power, the boundary line between the two worlds was extremely delicate. Also, even if one goes to the World Beyond, they can be revived in the Living World for just one day if they borrow Uranai Baba's power. Ultimately, after Gokuu died twice, he inherited the Old Kaioushin's life and was revived in the Living World. (Daizenshuu 4, Page 72)"
"A general term for the world that combines the entire universe and the Demon Realm. In Dragon Ball's world-view, there is the airtight universe, and there is the Demon Realm that takes the appearance of the reverse side of that. In contrast to 'The World Beyond' where everyone that dies resides, it is basically the world where those with lives reside. The lifeforms who live in the Living World are souls from the World Beyond that have reincarnated. Also called the present world."
"[Par.] Due to the fact that if one dies, they can be revived into the present world via Shenlong's power, the boundary line between the two worlds was extremely delicate. Also, even if one goes to the World Beyond, they can be revived in the Living World for just one day if they borrow Uranai Baba's power. Ultimately, after Gokuu died twice, he inherited the Old Kaioushin's life and was revived in the Living World. (Daizenshuu 4, Page 72)"
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It is. This shared space-time is 2-C. One needs to stop thinking as a space-time as necessarily Low 2-C.Amexim said:
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"It's not an opinion, Ryu, it's a fact. 7 years passes equally in the Afterlife and the Mortal World. It's not different at all. By definition it cannot be."
Question. When is it actually stated that 7 years passed equally? The closest thing I could find was "Oh wow! it's been 7 years huh?" or something along those lines from Goku; that's because he's using the context of coming back to the Mortal Universe.
"It is the same timespace. Or else time travelling in the Mortal World wouldn't affect the Afterlife, let alone the entire multiverse. that is also factual."
When... When DID time travel affect the afterlife? The people in the Afterlife worried about the affairs of the Mortal Universe because super powerful entities could travel between the two if left unchecked which would put everybody, even the kais in danger. Actually, no, Time Travel WOULD affect the Afterlife because it'd directly influence the amount of souls and what souls go to the afterlife regardless of how time of the two worked since that's the natural relationship of the two verses.
"It being separate doesn't make it another universe, and it demonstrably doesn't have a different time flow. I'm sorry, but that's objectively false. If they were different timelines, altering one wouldn't alter another."
So... you're telling me two different timelines are incapable of converging at one spot or affecting eachother at all whatsoever? Also I'm pretty sure DB operates on a Multiverse-Theory like way so....
Question. When is it actually stated that 7 years passed equally? The closest thing I could find was "Oh wow! it's been 7 years huh?" or something along those lines from Goku; that's because he's using the context of coming back to the Mortal Universe.
"It is the same timespace. Or else time travelling in the Mortal World wouldn't affect the Afterlife, let alone the entire multiverse. that is also factual."
When... When DID time travel affect the afterlife? The people in the Afterlife worried about the affairs of the Mortal Universe because super powerful entities could travel between the two if left unchecked which would put everybody, even the kais in danger. Actually, no, Time Travel WOULD affect the Afterlife because it'd directly influence the amount of souls and what souls go to the afterlife regardless of how time of the two worked since that's the natural relationship of the two verses.
"It being separate doesn't make it another universe, and it demonstrably doesn't have a different time flow. I'm sorry, but that's objectively false. If they were different timelines, altering one wouldn't alter another."
So... you're telling me two different timelines are incapable of converging at one spot or affecting eachother at all whatsoever? Also I'm pretty sure DB operates on a Multiverse-Theory like way so....
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Goku is talking about the fact he doesn't feel the passage of time in the Afterlife, which is why he can go Super Saiyan 3 freely. This is clear in-context.
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So, wait, all the universe are in one space-time? I thought it was believed here to be the opposite. Then how can they be considered separate universes? Because if busting 2 universe sized structures is only 3A, then why is Zeno not just 3A? He didn't bust any timelines either, but he destroyed multiple universes.
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I found some more stuff
A world in a dimension on the other side of "the universe," which is the world where people exist. It differs from "Hell;" it is a world confirmed to be in the Living World. However, magic holds greater influence than science. Similar to the obverse universe being split into east, west, south, and north areas, the Demon Realm is also split into multiple space areas. And the absolute king who commands all of this is Daabra.
But this may not mean spaces as in spatial universes, maybe just different places.
A world in a dimension on the other side of "the universe," which is the world where people exist. It differs from "Hell;" it is a world confirmed to be in the Living World. However, magic holds greater influence than science. Similar to the obverse universe being split into east, west, south, and north areas, the Demon Realm is also split into multiple space areas. And the absolute king who commands all of this is Daabra.
But this may not mean spaces as in spatial universes, maybe just different places.
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- Thread starter
- #62
It is directly stated time flows differently in other world. Just becose it flows while time also flows in living world does not make them the same time space. See other macrocosms or trunks own timeline which also flow at the same rate as Universe 7 for an example.
Also your own logic on the macrocosms dictates that we cannot assume a timeline is always low 2-C, thus you cannot assume that the macrocosm is only low 2-C.
I'm sorry but the two flowing forward at once does not prove they share the same space time, and it is directly stated they are separate spaces, that cannot be accessed by flight and that they have separate flows of time.
I see no proof that they share the same space time, just you denying the things that imply they are separate ones.
Also your own logic on the macrocosms dictates that we cannot assume a timeline is always low 2-C, thus you cannot assume that the macrocosm is only low 2-C.
I'm sorry but the two flowing forward at once does not prove they share the same space time, and it is directly stated they are separate spaces, that cannot be accessed by flight and that they have separate flows of time.
I see no proof that they share the same space time, just you denying the things that imply they are separate ones.
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Context, SSJRyu.
1. We know that all of the Multiverse is one timeline. Time thus can't flow differently in the Afterlife.
2. We know that Goku's quote relates to you not physically feeling the passage of time. So context.
3. Time travel on the Mortal World affects the Afterlife, only possible if through same time.
4. 7 years on Earth = 7 years in Afterlife.
They are demonstrably part of the same timeline, which encompasses the whole multiverse.
1. We know that all of the Multiverse is one timeline. Time thus can't flow differently in the Afterlife.
2. We know that Goku's quote relates to you not physically feeling the passage of time. So context.
3. Time travel on the Mortal World affects the Afterlife, only possible if through same time.
4. 7 years on Earth = 7 years in Afterlife.
They are demonstrably part of the same timeline, which encompasses the whole multiverse.
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Actually it's shown that Trunks and the main DB timeline has had roughly the same amount of time passing. Does that make Future Trunks and the Main DB Timeline become the same timeline?
Edit: We're also ignoring the fact that Toriyama and the writers might just not know how the hell Time works and separate space-times. It won't be the first time.
Edit: We're also ignoring the fact that Toriyama and the writers might just not know how the hell Time works and separate space-times. It won't be the first time.
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yes
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2-C Dragon Ball Hoooo
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Hypothetically speaking, this would upgrade IZ to full-on 2-C rather than the current tier he's at, which would upgrade every other Low 2-C in the verse to full 2-C and damn well into the tier as well.
Edit: Zen'Os current AP basically gets doubled if this is accepted so there's that too
Edit: Zen'Os current AP basically gets doubled if this is accepted so there's that too
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Herms translation has Goku say timr doesn't exist /at all/ in the Afterlife, not that it flows differently.
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Well, i think a link is necessary for the japanese dub.
Does anyone have one so we can use google translate on the part he talks about time?
Also, if there is no time on the afterlife, wouldnt that make Goku´s spirit Infinite speed?
Does anyone have one so we can use google translate on the part he talks about time?
Also, if there is no time on the afterlife, wouldnt that make Goku´s spirit Infinite speed?
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- Thread starter
- #71
Matt. BY that logic all the macrocosms are one time space since they all flow in the same timeline and flow forward in time at the same time. This does not prove the same time spaces at all, you can have separate time spaces flow at the same rate simultaneously. Unless you admit that the entire timeline is only low 2-C, and that future trunks and the main timeline is still only low 2-C since they also flow at the same rate side by side, you contradict yourself.
It is directly stated that the reason Goku feels this way is due to time flowing differently, the feeling is attributed to a different time flow directly. So it has a different time flow. Albeit one that flows alongside the living universe.
Also finally, it is directly stated it is a separate space that cannot be flown to, so there is no denying it is not a part of living world, or a layer or anything like that, and it is not available through regular 3D travel.
So I don't see any proof that it is the same space time, only a debunked argument about how if two places flow forward in time simultaneously they must be the same space time.
It is directly stated that the reason Goku feels this way is due to time flowing differently, the feeling is attributed to a different time flow directly. So it has a different time flow. Albeit one that flows alongside the living universe.
Also finally, it is directly stated it is a separate space that cannot be flown to, so there is no denying it is not a part of living world, or a layer or anything like that, and it is not available through regular 3D travel.
So I don't see any proof that it is the same space time, only a debunked argument about how if two places flow forward in time simultaneously they must be the same space time.
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they are all the same time yes, but not the same spaces. The entire timeline is 2-C, a possible thing. Like I said above, we need not restrain oursselves to timeline = Low 2-C.
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- Thread starter
- #73
Then why are you trying to restrain the macrocosm to Low 2-C? It clearly has separate spaces and a different flow of time as stated, even if they flow forward simultaneously. By that logic you could say all the macrocosms have the same rate of time flow and are just separate spaces, so they are all just one time space since that is what your arguing for the macrocausm.
Fact is you give the other macrocosms Low 2-C status for being separate spaces, therefore logically the other world which is a separate space would be as well.
Fact is you give the other macrocosms Low 2-C status for being separate spaces, therefore logically the other world which is a separate space would be as well.
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Here is the Japanese scan:
Goku says "in this world where time exists" this world referring to the mortal Universe. This implies the Afterlife time doesnt exist there unlike the mortal universe.
Id also like to link to this thread again made by RM97. I am "Raul Macedo" who he refers to at the end. This thread gives extra details regarding the Macrocosms of the DB verse
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1127170?useskin=oasis
Goku says "in this world where time exists" this world referring to the mortal Universe. This implies the Afterlife time doesnt exist there unlike the mortal universe.
Id also like to link to this thread again made by RM97. I am "Raul Macedo" who he refers to at the end. This thread gives extra details regarding the Macrocosms of the DB verse
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1127170?useskin=oasis
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If this is true, then Low 2-Cs become 2-Cs and everyone in the afterlife realm has infinite speed.
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Ryu, you are a bloody legend mate.
Id invite you a cold one.
Id invite you a cold one.
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- Thread starter
- #77
For sure the structure is 2-C due to more than one spacetime. I think that technically it implies infinite speed if we take it literal as no time, but doubt that will be accepted.
Edit: Anyhow going to sleep now, but I will check to see if there is any more input tomorrow.
Considering we have confirmed that other world is a separate space and has a different or possibly no time, we can confirm that it is not part of the living world which is already accepted as a low 2-C structure.
Weve debunked the notion that time flowing forward at the same rate does not make it the same space time automatically above. So that argument is null.
So unless somebody can prove it is not a separate space, I see no other option but to consider the total structure of the macrocosm a 2-C one, much like we considered the combined macrocosms in one timeline a 2-C structure for being separate spaces. It would be hypocritical to do otherwise.
Edit: Anyhow going to sleep now, but I will check to see if there is any more input tomorrow.
Considering we have confirmed that other world is a separate space and has a different or possibly no time, we can confirm that it is not part of the living world which is already accepted as a low 2-C structure.
Weve debunked the notion that time flowing forward at the same rate does not make it the same space time automatically above. So that argument is null.
So unless somebody can prove it is not a separate space, I see no other option but to consider the total structure of the macrocosm a 2-C one, much like we considered the combined macrocosms in one timeline a 2-C structure for being separate spaces. It would be hypocritical to do otherwise.
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I think for Whis and the Aengels since they can travel to the afterlife with their speeds they'd have infinite speeds for sure.
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