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I do think that, based on these staments, upgrading the angels, spirits and kaioshin (using instant movement technique, not raw fighting or reaction) should be infinite speed.
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DBS/Z/GT macrocosm structure
- Thread starter SSJRyu1
- Start date
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- Tags
- dragon ball multiverse zen'ō
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- 11,141
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What Ryu is saying:
The universe is divided into 2 space-times. The universe has its own time and the afterlife has its own time according to Goku's statement. Hence, together they are 2-C.
What Matt is saying:
The universe is divided into 2 spaces only. The universe and the afterlife share the same time. Goku's statement can be interpreted as him not feeling the flow of time. Hence, together they still are Low 2-C with separate spaces.
The universe is divided into 2 space-times. The universe has its own time and the afterlife has its own time according to Goku's statement. Hence, together they are 2-C.
What Matt is saying:
The universe is divided into 2 spaces only. The universe and the afterlife share the same time. Goku's statement can be interpreted as him not feeling the flow of time. Hence, together they still are Low 2-C with separate spaces.
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I'm starting to get neutral here too, but I still appreciate it if everyone remains civil as DragonMaster mentioned.
Note: Neutral about the tiers, but disagree strongly against infinite speed.
Note: Neutral about the tiers, but disagree strongly against infinite speed.
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I am pro-2-C and Infinite Speed.
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I think Ryu's pretty much got it right on this one. However, Some of the characters would end up as 2-B using the multipliers.
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Not how it works.
- 1,604
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- Thread starter
- #88
Pretty much AKM. However in the end whether you take it as 2 separate spaces or 2 separate space times, Matt has stated he considers the timeline a 2-C structure, even though he thinks it is all the same time, due to the macrocosms being separate spaces. Thus logically even if we go by his interpretation of the macrocosm, which he admits to being two separate spaces, since the macrocosm is undoubtedly two separate spaces for afterlife and living world, it would still be a 2-C structure for having two completely separate spaces.
Either way by the standards he himself is setting it is 2-C if we don't use double standards. If we were to deny separate spaces as there own low 2-C structures, then we would have to deny the entire timeline as being more than a low 2-C structure since it is all linked by time.
Either way by the standards he himself is setting it is 2-C if we don't use double standards. If we were to deny separate spaces as there own low 2-C structures, then we would have to deny the entire timeline as being more than a low 2-C structure since it is all linked by time.
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The timeline is objectively 2-C. The entire setting is one timeline composed of 12 (Formerly 18) universes. Each universe is just one universe. Doesn't matter if it's split into two halves.
Time flows simultaneously and identically everywhere.
Time flows simultaneously and identically everywhere.
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I find myself agreeing with Ryu here.
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Infinite Speed is also wank. DB characters are demonstrably not Infinite in speed. The fact that fights last a period of time, that Hit needs finite time to do a finite amont of actions.
I'm genuinely sorry to break it down to you again Ryu, but you are objectively wrong.
I'm genuinely sorry to break it down to you again Ryu, but you are objectively wrong.
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> Infinite speed
How can this even work?
How can this even work?
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i agree with Ryu
edit: but i disagree about the infinite speed
edit: but i disagree about the infinite speed
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Cool. Agreeing with wrong things don't make them right.
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Correction, I agree with the tiers but I disagree with Infinite speed as much as it pains me.
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The infinite speed is total wank? How could you take an offhand comment as proof for infinite speed? You don't need Infinite speed to move in places time doesn't exist. This has been stated over and over again, but I guess everyone forgets when it's time to wank their favorite verse? Their speed is demonstrably not affected by the timelessness - a dead Goku has to fly across Snake Way, which takes forever and is a major plot point given that it gets everyone killed, with time flowing just as it does in the living world, for example. Complete and utter bullshit.
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Can any of you at least explain why infinite speed would be a thing? People literally just started to say "they'd have infinite speed" halfway through the thread without any reasoning whatsoever.
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Again:
1. Time is proven to be the same in the whole multiverse. Goku's statement is taken out of context.
2. Mortal World and Afterlife are two halves of the same universe. The same space divided into two. You have to prove they're two universes, in which case good luck because they are both part of Universe 7.
3. Goku vs Beerus only destroyed physical space and left a vacuum of nothing.
1. Time is proven to be the same in the whole multiverse. Goku's statement is taken out of context.
2. Mortal World and Afterlife are two halves of the same universe. The same space divided into two. You have to prove they're two universes, in which case good luck because they are both part of Universe 7.
3. Goku vs Beerus only destroyed physical space and left a vacuum of nothing.
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Some might argue that instantaneous teleportation is Infinite Travel speed, but it is Not Combat applicable and assuming so is wank as Matt said.
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I agree with Ryu
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Well, if Spirit Goku is able to fight on a space without time...
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I posted the scan that implies the Afterlife doesn't have time from Herms translation. Ignoring the infinite speed thing, I dont see how that doesnt prove the afterlife is anothet continuum. And yeah, just because they flow simultanously doesnt prove theyre the same reality otherwise future Trunks timeline would follow that same logic as well.
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This just proves how nonsense the whole "Lol time doesn't flow in the afterlife" statement is. It is objectively and demonstrably wrong. You have to ignore the entire franchise for that.
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Uhhh let's just chill out please. No need to get heated over this.
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- Thread starter
- #106
Matt. Your using double standards again. You give the separate macrocosms each low 2-C status for being separate spaces, despite thinking they share the same time flow, yet deny the same standards when applying it to the macrocosm itself which is clearly composed of two completely separate spaces at the bare minimum, and can be argued as separate time as well. And yes there is separate time flows in the timeline btw, look at ROSAT for another example, and that's part of the living world, while other world is classified as completely separate.
Fact is the macrocosm is indeed two separate spaces, and imo has separate time flow to. But even with two separate spaces alone by your own standards that makes it a 2-C structure.
Matt, you are literally just using double standards at this point.
Fact is the macrocosm is indeed two separate spaces, and imo has separate time flow to. But even with two separate spaces alone by your own standards that makes it a 2-C structure.
Matt, you are literally just using double standards at this point.
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@Merchant
Jesus, do you even know what the word "Context" means. Nobody has addressed my point that time moves simultaneously in Earth and Afterlife, time travel on Earth affects the Afterlife, that the timeline is the multiverse, and that the statement refers to the physical effect of time.
You are just going with the highest, most wankapotency interpretation while closing your head to all facts that disprove it.
Jesus, do you even know what the word "Context" means. Nobody has addressed my point that time moves simultaneously in Earth and Afterlife, time travel on Earth affects the Afterlife, that the timeline is the multiverse, and that the statement refers to the physical effect of time.
You are just going with the highest, most wankapotency interpretation while closing your head to all facts that disprove it.
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It's not infinite, people fight in timeless spaces all the time and time itself is still relevant to Goku throughout every moment he spends as a ghost. The year he has to train is a year in the afterlife and a year in the living world and passes the same. The time he takes to fly across Snake Way is the same. Every thread that infinite speed comes up for with this reasoning is shot down, but you just come back with the same reasoning, like a broken record.
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I've already posted an explanation for that Goku time statement with much easier to believe requirements, that actually fit the context.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1640775#55
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1640775#55
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No Ryu. You are the one who uses double standards to rank Dragon Ball unreasonably higher based on false equivalencies and debunked scans.
You are the one who argues based on word names, who insist on using fanon terms like macrocosm to hide the fact that you're talking about a universe, who is still insisting that Afterlife has a different time when it does not, demonstrably, and you keep thinking that having One Thing / 2 suddenly equates to Two Things the size of the divided thing.
Seriously, no. Universe is one space, divided into two. Destroying the universe is 3-A.
You use double standards. You never address the Marvel, DC and Magi examples.
Each DC Universe contains Countless Limbo dimensions inside it. Should we make DC universe 2-B?
You are the one who argues based on word names, who insist on using fanon terms like macrocosm to hide the fact that you're talking about a universe, who is still insisting that Afterlife has a different time when it does not, demonstrably, and you keep thinking that having One Thing / 2 suddenly equates to Two Things the size of the divided thing.
Seriously, no. Universe is one space, divided into two. Destroying the universe is 3-A.
You use double standards. You never address the Marvel, DC and Magi examples.
Each DC Universe contains Countless Limbo dimensions inside it. Should we make DC universe 2-B?
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Each DC Universe contains Countless Limbo dimensions inside it. Should we make DC universe 2-B?
This is a false equivalency.
This is a false equivalency.
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Ever played Bayonetta? The universe in that game is divided into the Human World, Inferno, Paradiso and Purgatorio. Four parts.
It's just one universe. 3-A or Low 2-C. Nobody insists on 2-C Bayonetta simply based the universe is three-folded.
DB doesn't deserve special treatment and double standards.
It's just one universe. 3-A or Low 2-C. Nobody insists on 2-C Bayonetta simply based the universe is three-folded.
DB doesn't deserve special treatment and double standards.
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Indeed, i think Ryu has already explained enough.
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No it isn't. If you want to argue that one universe is 2-C because it is made of two parts. Then a universe that is made of countless parts should be 2-B.RapidMotorcycle19 said:
Also, every Marvel Universe buster is now 2-A because the Marvel Universe is made out of infinite layers of existence.
100% legitimate standards you wish to apply to Dragon Ball, but not apply to anyone else. I'm sure you don't want 2-B Pre-Crisis Superman, no?
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No. The same time flows, which is demonstrable, so while the structure is certainly bigger and more impressive than just a regular universe, it's still just 3-A spatially and Low 2-C in its totality with time and all factored in.Therefir said:
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The only thing I believe about this, is that the author didn't have a clear idea of how a universe would function, and didn't really care if it had multiple space-times or just one large one, so at the end of the day it's difficult to concretly prove any of these really.
And the Toei writers kind of milkedthis even more.
To me, since there seems to not be enough proofs to prove any one of these argumens completly on this topic, I'm kind of neutral for now.
And the Toei writers kind of milkedthis even more.
To me, since there seems to not be enough proofs to prove any one of these argumens completly on this topic, I'm kind of neutral for now.
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At the very least, we can assume that destroying all physical matter in the living world and the afterlife is more than twice baseline 3-A, but 2-C is a bit of a stretch. Still neutral, but leaning towards Matt's suggestion.
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