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Right, but I was explaining that he already attempted to address part of it. It’s not that he wasn’t aware of it. If the staff who disagreed with CM were somehow not aware of it that’s just a bad look for them.
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DBH abilities: Electric Boogaloo
- Thread starter Theglassman12
- Start date
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- Tags
- dragon ball (games)
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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I am working on a response to the blog. Have patience.
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Again, I got no dog in this fight, I just wanted to make sure that no part of the argument was being ignored.
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I mean... Why Void hax is being removed again? Death hax i can understand as i found it vague myself. Also what was the immortality stuff?
Dark Ki mostly deals with curroption and unholy manipulation from what i remembered.
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Gonna be a bit busy for the rest of the week so I won't be able to respond as active as I would, but let's get this out of the way.
@TheGodOfICE777 Are you going to remotely prove that the other time users are able to do the exact same things that time bird does like with his existence sustaining timelines or their reincarnations birthing other timelines at all? Because the fact you're not giving me any evidence doesn't help your point when this is just "oh he just happens to have this energy" so everyone scales despite there needing to be some evidence when there's a clear distinction between a normal time user and the time bird itself.
You're not giving me anything here about this granting people immortality at all. Again having "protection" doesn't mean being immortal unless you can prove they actually become immortal in the first place.
Affecting the stuff in the time scroll isn't an argument here when the tokipedia and time scrolls are two distinct different things in the first place. It's stated to be a specific version of the time scroll that Fu himself invented, which occurs way later down the line after time scrolls are a thing and lets him collect data, again where's the proof that time scrolls can control and manipulate data here in the first place? Because the lack of scans of them doing the same thing tokipedia does doesn't help. Oh, mortals created the Ziku world? So you're telling me that time power itself doesn't actually have full control over this if someone else made it in the first place, meaning this shouldn't scale to time power if that's the case.
It literally wouldn't because Void Manipulation is actual control of literal nothingness itself, Erasing it would just be Existence erasure. No it wouldn't that's just creation at best if the Time Bird recreated the entire multiverse in the first place and not just manipulated literal nothingness.
You'd need it to be elaborated on what they mean by "pulling them back in time" as that can be so many different meanings. That can also just mean "I pulled them back into the timeline when normally they were outside of the timeline", as opposed to "I made someone immune to paradoxes susceptible to time paradoxes now".
The negation of restoration I have a problem with this upscaling way up to High godly when at no point does time power or Mechi have any indication of being comparable to or being able to negate Zamasu's regen in DBH. And the injuries being healed is just because time itself is being reverted, there's a big difference between "everything is turning back to the way it was" and "I've reformed by entire existence back after being erased".
At least we can agree on that.
Half of the scans hardly pertain to the time scrolls having text, and the "history = plot" scan dump is disengenuous to use when those are literally game story plot synopsis you'd see in any video game ever that has a plot.
The first set of scans are just the Subjective reality hax you're bringing up again, which btw if you're going to use those then you're gonna have to pick one or the other, it's either subjective reality or causality manipulation. Saying if you're altering time, you're altering the events just because they mention "history being a set of events that connect" isn't direct causality manipulation, that's just a chain reaction feat at best if we're going to take this very literal without much elaboration on these events being completely warped at will, especially with the subjective reality stuff with the eggs causing distortions based on one's inner thoughts, which is at best subjective reality with this.
Sure, I'll concede on the Causality stuff for Dark Ki but this should just be prep time at best, and I don't really see why this would also scale to one's resistance without any elaboration on such.
How is the context different when you're just using one statement of Demigra saying "directional manipulation of space-time" and GoW having Direction being part of the soul that one can manipulate? Both are not vectors in the slightest and are missing Magnitude for them to remotely count as Vector hax, otherwise Demigra would've said "Vector control over space-time huh"?
I literally did and you told me to wait for Emiya to respond but if you wanna get that out of the way sure.
Time maintaining realities is not a basis for Conceptual Manipulation as nothing about this remotely suggests they are concepts and are controlling and maintaining concepts in the first place, at best this is just a universal energy that can extend to reality at best in the same way normal ki does in the mainline series, this doesn't grant them concept hax unless you're gonna tell me with a straight face Ki is concept hax, which you better actually give me all the evidence there is. Gotta love how you're ignoring the part where I also said "which doesn't remotely prove anything about Time Power creating or altering concepts in the first place" as if a realm lacking the concept of space and time somehow means time power can manipulate concepts. Where in the subspace scan does it remotely say Time Power controls concepts? Because you're not giving me anything that hints at this to be the case, which if you're going to keep saying "time power sustains timelines" that's just a creation feat at best, because by that logic everyone who made a universe has radiation, blood and bone, plant, metal, elemental, and many other manipulation because the universe just happens to have these, which is a massive NLF without any proof.
Establishing Order is not concept hax as nothing here remotely mentions the concept of Order is being controlled here, just that Time Bird can establish laws in a world. Janemba being the manifestation of evil isn't an argument for concept hax as nothing about his existence is remotely stated to be a literal concept of evil, nor is he someone who can control the literal abstract concept of evil or is immortal because of the abstract concept of evil. Being repeated the same statement of him being made of evil (the evils in one spirit that was in a soul cleansing machine that blew up and just went into some random dude) isn't an argument for concept without those elaboration. Again for the last time, if you're going to argue time power has concept hax for the fact that timelines and history just has these, refer to my point on universe creators having a bunch of abilities based on what exists in the real universe, it's a massive NLF and you need evidence that these things are stuff time power can indeed control, because all of this just screams assumptions to me.
@TheGodOfICE777 Are you going to remotely prove that the other time users are able to do the exact same things that time bird does like with his existence sustaining timelines or their reincarnations birthing other timelines at all? Because the fact you're not giving me any evidence doesn't help your point when this is just "oh he just happens to have this energy" so everyone scales despite there needing to be some evidence when there's a clear distinction between a normal time user and the time bird itself.
You're not giving me anything here about this granting people immortality at all. Again having "protection" doesn't mean being immortal unless you can prove they actually become immortal in the first place.
Affecting the stuff in the time scroll isn't an argument here when the tokipedia and time scrolls are two distinct different things in the first place. It's stated to be a specific version of the time scroll that Fu himself invented, which occurs way later down the line after time scrolls are a thing and lets him collect data, again where's the proof that time scrolls can control and manipulate data here in the first place? Because the lack of scans of them doing the same thing tokipedia does doesn't help. Oh, mortals created the Ziku world? So you're telling me that time power itself doesn't actually have full control over this if someone else made it in the first place, meaning this shouldn't scale to time power if that's the case.
It literally wouldn't because Void Manipulation is actual control of literal nothingness itself, Erasing it would just be Existence erasure. No it wouldn't that's just creation at best if the Time Bird recreated the entire multiverse in the first place and not just manipulated literal nothingness.
You'd need it to be elaborated on what they mean by "pulling them back in time" as that can be so many different meanings. That can also just mean "I pulled them back into the timeline when normally they were outside of the timeline", as opposed to "I made someone immune to paradoxes susceptible to time paradoxes now".
The negation of restoration I have a problem with this upscaling way up to High godly when at no point does time power or Mechi have any indication of being comparable to or being able to negate Zamasu's regen in DBH. And the injuries being healed is just because time itself is being reverted, there's a big difference between "everything is turning back to the way it was" and "I've reformed by entire existence back after being erased".
At least we can agree on that.
Half of the scans hardly pertain to the time scrolls having text, and the "history = plot" scan dump is disengenuous to use when those are literally game story plot synopsis you'd see in any video game ever that has a plot.
The first set of scans are just the Subjective reality hax you're bringing up again, which btw if you're going to use those then you're gonna have to pick one or the other, it's either subjective reality or causality manipulation. Saying if you're altering time, you're altering the events just because they mention "history being a set of events that connect" isn't direct causality manipulation, that's just a chain reaction feat at best if we're going to take this very literal without much elaboration on these events being completely warped at will, especially with the subjective reality stuff with the eggs causing distortions based on one's inner thoughts, which is at best subjective reality with this.
Sure, I'll concede on the Causality stuff for Dark Ki but this should just be prep time at best, and I don't really see why this would also scale to one's resistance without any elaboration on such.
How is the context different when you're just using one statement of Demigra saying "directional manipulation of space-time" and GoW having Direction being part of the soul that one can manipulate? Both are not vectors in the slightest and are missing Magnitude for them to remotely count as Vector hax, otherwise Demigra would've said "Vector control over space-time huh"?
I literally did and you told me to wait for Emiya to respond but if you wanna get that out of the way sure.
Time maintaining realities is not a basis for Conceptual Manipulation as nothing about this remotely suggests they are concepts and are controlling and maintaining concepts in the first place, at best this is just a universal energy that can extend to reality at best in the same way normal ki does in the mainline series, this doesn't grant them concept hax unless you're gonna tell me with a straight face Ki is concept hax, which you better actually give me all the evidence there is. Gotta love how you're ignoring the part where I also said "which doesn't remotely prove anything about Time Power creating or altering concepts in the first place" as if a realm lacking the concept of space and time somehow means time power can manipulate concepts. Where in the subspace scan does it remotely say Time Power controls concepts? Because you're not giving me anything that hints at this to be the case, which if you're going to keep saying "time power sustains timelines" that's just a creation feat at best, because by that logic everyone who made a universe has radiation, blood and bone, plant, metal, elemental, and many other manipulation because the universe just happens to have these, which is a massive NLF without any proof.
Establishing Order is not concept hax as nothing here remotely mentions the concept of Order is being controlled here, just that Time Bird can establish laws in a world. Janemba being the manifestation of evil isn't an argument for concept hax as nothing about his existence is remotely stated to be a literal concept of evil, nor is he someone who can control the literal abstract concept of evil or is immortal because of the abstract concept of evil. Being repeated the same statement of him being made of evil (the evils in one spirit that was in a soul cleansing machine that blew up and just went into some random dude) isn't an argument for concept without those elaboration. Again for the last time, if you're going to argue time power has concept hax for the fact that timelines and history just has these, refer to my point on universe creators having a bunch of abilities based on what exists in the real universe, it's a massive NLF and you need evidence that these things are stuff time power can indeed control, because all of this just screams assumptions to me.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Glass did it more succinctly but by god I'm not gonna leave this draft half finished.
I. Time Energy and Time is fundamental for the existence of the multiverse and everything it contains
To be blunt, this section is wholly unnecessary. Time is, of course, fundamental to the universe. None of us would be here without time; This does not make it a concept, as many abilities on this wiki - such as the ability to control matter, souls, space, dimensions, and so on - deal with equally fundamental parts of reality, yet are distinctly not concepts. Still, I will humor this section a bit by tackling each segment bit by bit.
So uh, a lot of extrapolation being done here, taking a lot of typical villain prose as literal and giving vague statements the highest interpretation possible. Of course, feel free to post additional context if there is any.
II. Time Energy and Time can alter and remove concepts
III. Time Energy and Time can influence and establish other, lesser fundamental abstracts
But the funniest part of this is that, even if these statements were 100% valid, it wouldn't even be conceptual manipulation? We literally already have a power for manipulating laws and order?
TL;DR: This entire blog is looking at time manipulation, going "wow, time is really important to existence!" and instead of concluding that it works like, yknow, how time is supposed to work, it comes to the absolutely insane conclusion that time manipulation must also be a form of concept manipulation.
I. Time Energy and Time is fundamental for the existence of the multiverse and everything it contains
To be blunt, this section is wholly unnecessary. Time is, of course, fundamental to the universe. None of us would be here without time; This does not make it a concept, as many abilities on this wiki - such as the ability to control matter, souls, space, dimensions, and so on - deal with equally fundamental parts of reality, yet are distinctly not concepts. Still, I will humor this section a bit by tackling each segment bit by bit.
Right, this is basic time stuff. Fine. I take issue with how the scan being used to say Time Power creates histories and dimensions does not actually say that Time Power can do that (it just mentions the creation of universes/timelines), but I'll let it slide. For now.
This is a somewhat deceptive phrasing of what the scans actually say. Time Power does control time (fucking obviously), but the parts regarding control over dimensions is fairly odd. This scan refers to ruling over time and space. Demigra states he will conquer the world (please note how he doesn't actually say anything about space-time like the imgur album claims he does). Tokitoki very vaguely saved(?) all the dimensions. The first two scans are blatantly not related to hax of any kind; They are literally referring to just like, ruling over/conquering something. You don't need to have the power to reshape the universe in order to rule over it. The last scan also requires elaboration; How did Tokitoki do this? Is it something they do by existing? Did it require a specific ability? Saying "(x) saved all the dimensions!" is so incredibly vague devoid of context that this is basically nothing. Same deal with the plot synopsis; Saying Tokitoki is responsible for all dimensions could imply a lot of things, not all of which are "Time Power sustains the existence of all dimensions".
So uh, a lot of extrapolation being done here, taking a lot of typical villain prose as literal and giving vague statements the highest interpretation possible. Of course, feel free to post additional context if there is any.
First link is dead. However, this is deceptively posturing time as a more fundamental force due to how it affects the physical world, when like... yeah, no shit? If you get erased from time, you get erased from space as well, since you just... don't exist. That's how existence erasure works; Whether it targets the body, soul, narrative, or what have you, whatever you erase doesn't physically exist because it's just gone; That doesn't mean whatever you erased is conceptually tied to reality. This is especially pertinent to temporal erasure, due to how space and time are linked; If you no longer exist in any "when", you can no longer exist any "where", because time and space are inextricably tied to one another. Obviously, this works in reverse too, so the temporal restoration bit is similarly moot. This is merely a universal property of time, and not something unique to DBH.
I've covered the first few scans in point 2, so I won't repeat myself. However, saying his existence sustains all dimensions simultaneously is uh, wrong? The first scan doesn't say anything about distorting all of space-time, just that there was a distortion in space-time (which, if you aren't aware, doesn't automatically have cosmology spanning range). The second scan also implies a limited area of effect, being limited to a single timeline (it also doesn't mention Tokitoki at all, to be clear). This scan just says "the universe", and not the entire multiverse, as does this scan. It is absurd to me that yall have managed to get away with taking a scan that says "universe" and saying "no guys it totally means the entire multiverse!!!" with nobody calling you out on it, jfc.
See point 3.
This is subjective reality at best, and not particularly relevant to concept hax.
II. Time Energy and Time can alter and remove concepts
Okay, yeah, that's what time does. Nothing too notable, except this is another instance in which the word "universe" is being misconstrued as "multiverse"; Genuinely, what is even the point of doing this? You know anybody can read those scans and see the text doesn't say multiverse, right?
This is taking the word "concept" overly literally; These places have a "different concept of time" (or absence of it) in the sense that time flows differently there (or not at all), not in the sense that the literal fundamental abstraction of time is different there. I need you to understand that those are two very different things. However, even if they weren't different, it wouldn't matter, because...
Creating a space without concepts does NOT mean you are capable of erasing concepts. It just means it was never a part of the world to begin with; For example, I can bake a cake without human flesh in it, but that doesn't mean I have some special existence erasing power. It just means I didn't add a certain ingredient, just as Time Power users aren't erasing concepts, but rather, simply not adding one. Choosing to "not add" something and choosing to "subtract" something are different processes. I'm not sure how else I can describe this, because the blog's take on this matter is very far removed from how reality works. The same goes for the alteration of time; Changing the flow of time is, yknow, time manipulation.
III. Time Energy and Time can influence and establish other, lesser fundamental abstracts
Okay, first of all, capitalizing Order to treat it as some important thing is a bit disingenuous when the original text doesn't do that. That said, time establishing "order" does not mean it controls the abstraction of order, just that time is what keeps things organized and, well, orderly. Much like how time works in real life, if time ceased to exist, there'd be no order (or anything at all, for that matter); This is not something unique to DBH. The second scan is just the name of an attack, while the third scan doesn't even seem related to the main point at all?
But the funniest part of this is that, even if these statements were 100% valid, it wouldn't even be conceptual manipulation? We literally already have a power for manipulating laws and order?
Okay, so there are dudes with type 2 abstract existence in the verse. Cool. This doesn't mean blowing up a timeline is concept hax.
All of this is predicated on the idea that Sealas is talking about the abstract concept of evil and not like. literally anything else? This is taking a guy saying he's going to get rid of evil and drawing the highest possible interpretation from it with not a whole lot of evidence beyond "I'm going to remake the world so there isn't evil anymore!".
You know what, it's late, discussing DBH plot hax sounds like hell, and I'm tired, so let me just say that none of what's listed here is a concept. In fact, I'm pretty sure IZ got his concept-based AE removed, so you can't even use that. The rest of the blog is based on assuming time power is a concept already, so I won't tackle that.
TL;DR: This entire blog is looking at time manipulation, going "wow, time is really important to existence!" and instead of concluding that it works like, yknow, how time is supposed to work, it comes to the absolutely insane conclusion that time manipulation must also be a form of concept manipulation.
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This is something I couldn't agree with more. I did kinda just give up on this the thread that this was accepted and didn't say much against because I didn't wanna really debate DBH. But the interpretation of it literally lacking concepts isn't what's even accepted for the main canon too and was pretty much rejected in favor for it being different than conventional time (which should be important for SDBH ability/cosmology additions that literally relies on it) . I also argued the **** for having "no concept" of time to actually mean having a different flow or idea of time than typical.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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What, seriously? If something is rejected for main canon, then there's no reason to use the exact same evidence for an alt canon. That's insane.
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It's probably because there was a new argument brought up (only in SDBH side of things for some reason) that there's a space called subspace (which would lack these concepts) which contains these dimensions when the scans just imply that RoSaT and sugoroku space fall under the category of being a subspace instead of being in one.
Such as here where RoSaT and Sugoroku Space are called "subspaces"
And with context this just seems to be referring to these realms as subspaces and falling under that category rather than being realms in a greater encompassing subspace.
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Cooking here. Quite literally anything can be considered as a concept but doesn't inherently mean it in a literal sense. Honestly the term concept is thrown around way too much and it's abused to hell and back for the most part.
I'm seeing nothing here to imply that Time Power is conceptual let alone a type 1 conceptual abstraction. At best it'd be Type 2 but even that is generous. Time itself is a concept but doesn't automatically make eveyone with time manipulation conceptual in nature.
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Vector Manipulation is fine from the subspace thing but ultimately it would depend on how subspace is defined as in Dragon Ball.
Using a real life definition isn't applicable without proper evidence and context. This would be the equivalent of me saying Garou from OPM has 4-D hax based on Hyperspace which is defined as 4-D in the real world but obviously fiction is gonna apply a different meaning.
Furthermore I'd have those translations properly evaluated. Not to have bad faith but depending what you use to translate from Japanese to English could have a lot of issues since Japanese doesn't translate into English very well for the most part, especially if something like Google translate is used.
Using a real life definition isn't applicable without proper evidence and context. This would be the equivalent of me saying Garou from OPM has 4-D hax based on Hyperspace which is defined as 4-D in the real world but obviously fiction is gonna apply a different meaning.
Furthermore I'd have those translations properly evaluated. Not to have bad faith but depending what you use to translate from Japanese to English could have a lot of issues since Japanese doesn't translate into English very well for the most part, especially if something like Google translate is used.
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First imgur album I sent is fine since it's translated by Executor. Dunno about the second one though.
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Tbf time is an abstract, DBH’s is just more impressive than regular time
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Chronoa has a similar function in Xenoverse, so yeah regular time power users can do that.
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The worst part is that this could have never happen to another verse..... It only happens due to being DB or one of their other "verses" I love the anime, it was one of the first things i watched as a child, i remember learning English from this along with the other 4 anime's i watched as a child. I love the series and verse, but I have very negative views of scaling it..... It is always the same no matter where i look.
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How do you get context if you can’t use real life definitions to interpret the work? Heck how can you understand the work at all without real life definitions?
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Time isn't always an abstraction. That would depend heavily on the context. Arthur Morgan can slow down time but you don't see me slapping conceptual manipulation next to it for the sake for manipulating time.
Time is only considered to be conceptual if there's a statement like "controlling the concept of time." like with Zeref from Fairy Tail being stated to manipulate the concept of time rather than just "manipulation of time."
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Like Gin said, just because time is an abstraction doesn't mean time manipulation is also concept manipulation. DBH's time is uh, also not "more impressive" than regular time.
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Different verses work on different principles. Real Life definitions are only applicable if they align with what is shown and stated within the work of fiction. Instead of manipulation of time you'd need direct statements of the concept being manipulated, I.E the fundamental aspect. And you'd need even further evidence for Type 1 since the concept of time in this case would need to predate any other concept and law of the universe including Type 2 concepts.
Read above. Context is what matters, anything can be considered a concept with irl definitions. Not to be rude but anyone with an associate degree would know the difference between formal and natural language. I suggest you read up on the difference between the two to help you tell the difference between the general and literal definitions of the English language.
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The word "concept" in itself not representing literal concepts is a valid point indeed and honestly something i was used to argue but here is a little problem. We can't just assume that it is also not very literal as nothing suggest for it to be real or not on the basis of "feelings" if personally ask me. The kanji is just right there... That sounds pretty hypocritic if you ask me coz now we are questioning the terms ourselves and the standards we used in the past.
It also doesn't help how fundamental Time Power is treated as the force that sustains Time itself otherwise all of the reality as we know would be just left into pure Darkness.
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Wait what? Its not accepted for canon? What the fu-
You know how it feels like? It feels like trying to deny the basic working of the cosmology... I don't know what the arguments presented for it but it's just dumb no matter how you look at it. No offense.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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1. How is this hypocritical lol
2. We also cannot assume that it is literal unless there is further context to suggest it is.
3. The kanji being right there means nothing. Hyperbolic and non-literal speech transcends language, you know.
You are aware that this is simply how time works, correct? No verse would exist without time. Real life wouldn't exist without time. You keep hyping up time as this fundamental, all-encompassing conceptual force while overlooking the fact that nothing you're saying is exclusive to DBH.
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There is nothing being rejected in canon, this is also incorporated into the canon verse by this in a Dragon Ball Super canon guide, in addition to the cosmology being the same for Dragon Ball Super, Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT
Besides, we not only have this void with no concept of space-time, but we also have the world of void itself where there is no space-time there.
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Ahh that scan. Idk if we consider Spanish stuff canon tho...
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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This has literally the exact same issue the other scans have, that being how a different flow of time/a lack of time is being interpreted as some sort of concept hax. That issue won't be fixed by throwing out more scans that say the exact same thing.
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We consider the el mangá cânon which is a guide in Spanish
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I don't think it's a different time, but rather that there are no concepts of something in these places.
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I highly doubt they are using the word concept in the same sense as the wiki, that means in the sense of literal concept manipulation, instead they seem to be using it in the normal way that humans use the word
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el manga legendario (predates super so it doesnt have the shown scan) is canon yes but that doesn't make every single spanish source canon due to specific circumstances el manga legendario has.
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Sometimes it just refers to the collection of physical timelines, but time by itself is an abstract.
Don’t know who that is and yes because it’d be redundant to do so.
Well he’s wrong
It definitely is.
How can you deduce if it aligns with what is stated if said statement rely on real life definitions?
Or deduce it from other statements
No?
You didn’t mention this distinction before, yes context matters but what context makes these statements not formal and just “figure of speech” instead?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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"It definitely is" Do you have a source for that or nah
Anyways, this site has never treated time manipulation as concept manipulation, so this is a pointless argument.
Anyways, this site has never treated time manipulation as concept manipulation, so this is a pointless argument.
DivineAura44
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This is arguably the worst way to go about it. It accomplishes nothing every time it's tried.
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Gotta agree with DivineAura on this one.
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I don't understand, but other characters here have already gained time-based conceptual manipulation.
DivineAura44
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When has bringing up what another verse has to compare to a different verse ever worked my man?
I understand you are trying to prove that it's possible because Fuji said it wasn't but it's a line of thinking that won't lead to the ability staying on the profile. Better to just argue the other points because it'll actually get you somewhere in the argument.
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This should be removed, idk who the f*ck thought that was a good idea.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Then this is also wanked and deserves to be removed. Thank you for pointing this out to me, though.
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So, just to use an example that we use to give type 2 conceptual manipulation
I don't think there are any rules about this, but I'll delete it out of respect for my friends.
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Stay out of this bs, Luffy. We're not going after any verse just because ours loses something.
We're not petty.
- Status
