DB Characters half 2-C downgrade

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Well I agree, but for reasons of semantics more than anything else.

I had an entirely unnecessary debate about this once, which was why I later made a thread to get the staff to tweak the wording on the Attack Potency and Tiering System pages. The baseline AP is something done in one strike.

It's perfectly possible for a Low 2-C character to be near baseline 2-C. The reason why we don't use multipliers to get from Low 2-C from 2-C is because we don't know the difference in power from A and B, however it is possible for us to go from 2-C to Low 2-C with division.

Whether or not you believe it's over time or instantly, we know for a fact that neither Beerus nor Champa alone can destroy two universes in one shot, so we know that they, along with anyone who scales, are solidly Low 2-C. Far above the baseline, nearing 2-C, but not at 2-C. But, as I said before, anyone stronger than Beerus or Champa has reason to get "At least Low 2-C", since we're unsure how far Beerus and Champa downscale from the 2-C feat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You can't be "near 2-C" just from scaling above Low 2-C.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Low 2-C standards are being revised altogether btw.

 

[Omegas03]

That's just overcomplicating the standards, fiction generally never distinguishes any way from yeeting the universe than just, yeeting it. be it space-time wise or across all past, present and future. This kinda messes up Tier 2/3 (specially some Multiversal feats) just because many verses aren't that specific in something that simple such as universe destroying.

But I am going off-topic so meh.

 

[Omegas03]

You can't be "near 2-C" just from scaling above Low 2-C.

I think you don't actually know the reason Beerus is near 2-C in the first place. Beerus and Champa were about to destroy two universes in their bout and their combined output is 2-C meaning they are half 2-C individually.

 

[Hasty12345]

I think you don't actually know the reason Beerus is near 2-C in the first place. Beerus and Champa were about to destroy two universes in their bout and their combined output is 2-C meaning they are half 2-C individually.

but under the 2-C standards, wouldn't they have to affect past and future as well? so it's arguably not even a low 2-C feat, forget 2-C.

It would just be a high level of 3-A with inter-dimensional range wouldn't it???

 

[My_area]

but under the 2-C standards, wouldn't they have to affect past and future as well? so it's arguably not even a low 2-C feat, forget 2-C.

It would just be a high level of 3-A with inter-dimensional range wouldn't it???

What 2-C standards? How is not a even a Low 2-C when Beerus and Champa combined are destroying 2 universes which are seperated spatio-temporally? Something which High 3-A attacks with interdimensional range cant bypass? They are doing something which even 2 normal Low 2-C cant perform since 2 x low 2-C =/= 2-C yet Beerus+Champa can perform a 2-C level feat combined

 

[Hasty12345]

What 2-C standards? How is not a even a Low 2-C when Beerus and Champa combined are destroying 2 universes which are seperated spatio-temporally? Something which High 3-A attacks with interdimensional range cant bypass? They are doing something which even 2 normal Low 2-C cant perform since 2 x low 2-C =/= 2-C yet Beerus+Champa can perform a 2-C level feat combined

https://vsbattles.com/threads/tier-2-characters-crt.111439/

read pretty much everything Ultima said

 

[My_area]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/tier-2-characters-crt.111439/

read pretty much everything Ultima said

I read his standards and I dont see how it debunks Beerus and Champa feat of atleastLow 2-C in anyway,even then this change isn't applied yet and also I dont get the "infinite snapshot of moment" thingie,since when did timeline need to have infinite moments of time period in order to be qualifed for Low 2-C?I am agreeing with what Dark Dragon Medeus has to say regarding the "infinite snapshot" thing.

 

[Omegas03]

Someone who destroys >2 universes being in the same tier as someone who destroys one is just wrong.

 

[Hasty12345]

I read his standards and I dont see how it debunks Beerus and Champa feat of Low 2-C in anyway,even then this change isn't applied yet and also I dont get the "infinite snapshot of moment" thingie,since when did timeline need to have infinite moments of time period in order to be qualifed for Low 2-C,I am agreeing with what Dark Dragon Medeus has to say regarding the "infinite snapshot" thing.

unfortunately, it doesn't really matter what you personally believe, if these end up being the standards, 2-C Beerus and Champa is likely never going to happen based on this feat.

 

[My_area]

unfortunately, it doesn't really matter what you personally believe, if these end up being the standards, 2-C Beerus and Champa is likely never going to happen based on this feat.

Its not about what I personally believe,its about how the tier 2 objectively works,even if they end up being the standards it isn't debunking Beerus and Champa feat of 2-C at all in the slightest so I dont see how this is relevant to Beerus and Champa tiering here.

 

[Hasty12345]

Someone who destroys 18 universes being in the same tier as someone who destroys one is just wrong.

that makes 0 sense.....

2-C is 2-1000 universes, so there's literally 2-C's who are 10 times stronger than Zeno in the same tier. Finite 3D tiers are even worse, star level has a range like 10^4 joules or something

 

[Hasty12345]

Its not about what I personally believe,its about how the tier 2 objectively works,even if they end up being the standards it isn't debunking Beerus and Champa feat of 2-C at all in the slightest so I dont see how this is relevant to Beerus and Champa tiering here.

it is relevant as tier 2 would require the destruction of either past and future, not just present. I was told on the thread that destroying ONLY the PRESENT of a 2-A structure is only a high 3-A feat. Assuming that is what the standards aim to put forth, this is not a 2-C feat.

 

[My_area]

He edited his comment by the way

 

[Omegas03]

3D characters of far different powers can be in the same tier because they end up destroying approximately the same (a star for example). Not as much when someone who can destroy 18 (or even 600 thousand, it doesn't matter) universes be in 3-A just because the verse wasn't specific enough with space time things, when I bet less than 0.1% of the verses actually makes a distinction

Unless you want to put a Multiversal in the same tier as an Universal lmao.

 

[My_area]

it is relevant as tier 2 would require the destruction of either past and future, not just present. I was told on the thread that destroying ONLY the PRESENT of a 2-A structure is only a high 3-A feat. Assuming that is what the standards aim to put forth, this is not a 2-C feat.

Destruction of present was never tier 2 to begin with,I dont see where you got that idea from.Destroying universe from present as in destroying universes's matter is just 3-A.Destroying only the matter of 2-A structure is High 3-A,they aren't wrong about that.So in short its till 2-C feat combined.

 

[RedRibbon1]

Beerus & Champa were in universe 7, while they were exchanging blows everything surrounding them were immediately disappearing. Neither Whis or Vados implied it would a over time feat so there’s no reason to assume either, rather they had to stop them before they could performed that final kick & a statement was explicitly stated by Vados, are they trying to destroy both universe 6 & 7 which are separated space & time continuum.

So basically it’s a 2-C feat which can be performed by combined low 2-C, Gods like Beerus & Champa. By the way, their range would be 2-C since they were in universe 7 basically both would destroy entirety of 2 universes from "Beerus's planet".

 

[Hasty12345]

I'm personally in-different to the tier of this feat, the problem I have is how the standards impact the quantification of this feat.

Edit: quote from Ultima where my concerns come from for reference:

"By the way, since a bunch of people both here and outside of the wiki expressed some confusion as to what exactly this thread's proposal is, I'll say this just for clarity's sake: We are not changing the actual definition of Low 2-C, just applying some stricter standards so characters have to meet the actual requirement to qualify for it, that being destroying all of spacetime, and thus the entire universe across past, present and future. So, if you destroy the universe, but there is no evidence that it was destroyed across past and future, then you are not Low 2-C.

3-A will remain unchanged, too, since the original post was written under the idea that you can destroy spacetime at a single point in time, which is just completely wrong and born from a misdirection: A single point in time isn't 4-D, it's a 3-dimensional cross-section of the larger 4-dimensional structure of spacetime, basically a static snapshot of the universe at a single point of no time. Likewise, destroying space and matter would cause time to stop existing, yes, but this would be more of a chain reaction than an actual feat: Low 2-C is explicitly about directly destroying the spacetime continuum." post 36 on the tier 2 characters thread.

 

[My_area]

I personally dont see any change on how this feat is going to be quantifed due to standard changes

 

[Omegas03]

The new standards do affect even Zeno because he has no evidence of destroying 18 space times in all periods of time aka past, present and future.

 

[My_area]

He erases the entirely of FT time ring though which contains the past,present and future of the timeline.Ignoring the obvious PIS of time machine going to the erased timeline so it doesn't affect his tier.

 

[Omegas03]

Wait, I stand corrected then.

It DOES affect Infinite Zamasu and Beerus, though.

 

[My_area]

How?
Infinite Zamasu merged with entirety of universe 7 timeline which means past,present and future aand Beerus can destroy entirely of universe space and time continum which again means past,present and future because his attack with Champa can destroy 2 universes while breaching through space and time continum barrier between the both

 

[Omegas03]

The thread explains why Infinite Zamasu wouldn't be Low 2-C with the revision.

 

[My_area]

I read the tier 2 standard change and still fail to see why he wouldn't be tier 2 anymore

The thread is basically just putting up a strict measure to tier 2 feats which is something very obvious to how tier 2 works,guess the principles must not be followed properly and there must be lax in the rule hence they are tightening it which is the only reason I think of as to why this CRT is made otherwise its literally telling the basics of how tier 2 works.

 

[RedRibbon1]

I don’t see how it affects Dragon Ball verse where each "Timelines" are entirely separated from each other which has it’s own history "past, present & future".

 

[RedRibbon1]

Unless they entire "Multiverse" (12 universes) in DB verse is considered a single "Timeline" which has a single flow of time.

Pretty sure universes are considered as separated space & time continuum here which by default would've it’s own history past, present & future.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

You guys are not getting the damm point, the result of destruction seems to be 2-C yes, but the problem is that the destruction itself was done on a 3D scale (destroying a 2-C structure on a 3D scale would only make you 3-A) so wherever it was over time or not it doesn't really matter

 

[RedRibbon1]

You guys are not getting the damm point, the result of destruction seems to be 2-C yes, but the problem is that the destruction itself was done on a 3D scale (destroying a 2-C structure on a 3D scale would only make you 3-A) so wherever it was over time or not it doesn't really matter

Why do you think it’s on a scale 3D? They would've destroy 2 separated space & time which can't be done by 3A attacks. Breaching into different space time & destroying would require low 2-C attack, in this case it's 2-C feat which would've done by two low 2-C beings.

 

[My_area]

You guys are not getting the damm point, the result of destruction seems to be 2-C yes, but the problem is that the destruction itself was done on a 3D scale (destroying a 2-C structure on a 3D scale would only make you 3-A) so wherever it was over time or not it doesn't really matter

I addressed this in detail in the first post I made here.But I will explain this again.you cant destroys 2-C structure which is seperated spatio-temporally with each other with just 3-A attacks.3-A attacks cant even cross beyond destroying matter of 1 universe let alone cross 1 universe space and time continum and destroy another universe.Overtime or not by extension shouldn't matter since overtime 3-A attacks cant destroy 2-C structures unless they have 2-C range or something.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

.But I will explain this again.you cant destroys 2-C structure which is seperated spatio-temporally with each other with just 3-A attacks.3-A attacks cant even cross beyond destroying matter of 1 universe

You literally can? 3-A attacks can cross beyond destroying a single universe which would make you 3-A above baseline, you can destroy a 2-B structure on a 3D scale and this would make you 3-A far above baseline (in other words a 3-A attack isn't limited to just one universe, it can cross any number of universes which would make you 3-A above baseline)

 

[My_area]

You literally can? 3-A attacks can cross beyond destroying a single universe which would make you 3-A above baseline, you can destroy a 2-B structure on a 3D scale and this would make you 3-A far above baseline

Nope you cant.3-A attacks can only destroy univeres which are seperated spatially or not seperated at all.You cant destroy 2-C structure(A 4D structure) which is seperated by space and time continum by a 3-A(A 3D] attack.If it was 3D scale then it would simply be x times above baseline 3-A level,if its 2-B like you said then you are agreeing to the fact that its in fact a 4D structure due to containing 1001 or greater amount of universes which a mere 3-A attack cant possibly destroy,if it did then its either 2-B or in unusual case have 3-A range.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

You can't be "near 2-C" just from scaling above Low 2-C.

If you were referring to me, I'm not upscaling above Low 2-C, I'm downscaling from 2-C.

 

[RedRibbon1]

You're not getting the point separated "space & time" continuum. U6 & U7 has their own space & time, not simply "space". Beerus & Champa would've destroy separated space & time which can't be done by 3-A attacks at all.

 

[Hasty12345]

I think Beerus and Champa just have some sort of 2-C range with 3-A AP via that feat, and I'm not entirely certain they are separated spatio-temporally since Zeno destroyed IZ and the time machine stilled traveled to that time, it alludes to the DBS cosmology having a single spacetime continua per timeline IMO.

Zeno could have just erased Zeno and everything in the spacetime without destroying the timeline, which the time machine still traveling there supports.

 

[My_area]

Its very weird that they can only destory matter within the universe yet have 2-C range enough to destroy 2 universes.Thats very unusual and strange when nothing is supporting the fact that they are just going to destory matter between both universes with help of 2-C range covering 2 universe.Time machine portion is again PIS way so Goku can get Zeno from future timeline to present timeline,the fsct he can breathe in the void and the fact he didn't ger erased instantly by Zeno's erased void tells you that its a PIS scene,that isn't enough evidence that its PIS then how about the fact that this exact same PIS existed in DBS manga where time ring was explicitly shown to be erased hence causing time travel to be impossible but the exact same PIS happened there.Also please dont suggest that DBS universes follow 1 timeline hence Low 2-C at maximun because this CRT was made multiple time and it was rejected.

Zeno said he was going to erase the world(which can be interchanged as multiverse in this context) as he erased universes and Zamasu with it so then there would be no reason for him to spare the timeline either since Zeno is so non chalant about erasing universes and casually erased 6 unuverses when he was slightly annoyed

 

[Hasty12345]

you're calling it PIS when it happened in two separate canons more so points to you having the incorrect interpretation??

 

[My_area]

I called it PIS not because it happened on 2 seperate occasions but because of how it contradicts whats established by destruction of Zeno before hand,I even brought up DBS manga as a example where Zeno erases a time ring yet time machine still go there to dismiss portion of your argument which relied on PIS to show that universe 7 isn't a timeline as invalid which got no responses to it by the way,So if I have "incoorect interpretation" mind explaining how thats the case?

 

[Hasty12345]

I called it PIS not because it happened on 2 seperate occasions but because of how it contradicts whats established by destruction of Zeno before hand,I even brought up DBS manga as a example where Zeno erases a time ring yet time machine still go there to dismiss portion of your argument which relied on PIS to show that universe 7 isn't a timeline as invalid which got no responses to it by the way,So if I have "incoorect interpretation" mind explaining how thats the case?

I'm just gonna be honest, DBS has so many inconsistencies with it's cosmology (i.e. the guides for Z saying universes are infinite but they're depicted as finite in Super etc) I don't even think the writers are keeping track. That being said, I'm just gonna leave this to you and other members to come up with an accurate rating, the DBS cosmology has me baffled atm and I'm not gonna rewatch the series to figure it out anytime soon.

so have fun.

But for the record: how I currently picture the DBS cosmology just so you can understand my argument and where I'm coming from, so you can better understand my concerns for the feat. The DBS cosmology is a 2-B construct with as many timelines as there are timerings. each timeline has it's own multiverse with it's own zeno, with the multiverse in this case having a single spacetime continuum. I have no doubt this interpretation is inconsistent, but that's where I'm coming from and based on my (admittedly atm limited understanding) of the DBS cosmology.